[Retired] The LCD Thread

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: techgamer
How good are the Samsung 226BW and the LG L226WTQ(BF) for playing dvds on? Or does it depend on the software used?

I suppose they are fine. I'm not sure what exactly you are wondering?

They have good response time. Contrast is pretty good. They won't reveal as many flaws with DVDs as higher quality panels so in that way they are good. At the same time they should be vibrant. I haven't tried it, personally, though.

 

[techgamer]

Do you think any of these top models like the 226bw, l226wt, or VX2255wmb will go on sale for black friday?

A seperate question I have is in regards to 24" non TN panels and response time. It seems a lot of these have response times over 10ms, is that awful for gaming? how noticeable is it? Are there good 24" panels for gaming that arent $$$$?

 

[Skott]

DvD movies look great on my LG 226WTQ-BF.

Originally for gaming you wanted anything under 16ms but nowadays you want 8ms or less. Some consider no more than 5ms to be the max. 2ms is considered the ideal though and thats what most gamers look for. The lower the better. My experiences lie with 22" LCDs and smaller though so not sure how it playes out in the bigger 24"+ category.

 

[ryedizzel]

xtknight, thanks again for answering my questions. btw is LCD technology for computers the same as TVs?

 

[alexthebored]

Thanks for the response xtknight, it was perfect. I think I'm going to get the 226BW, and ignore the PS3 aspect. For one, going with a 24'' would force me to go 1900X1200, which is going to tax my graphics card (which means even more $$). A 22'' seems perfect for me right now. I'll simply worry about getting a cheap TV or something for my PS3 when the time comes; I can go a bit without needing HD

 

[GeneralOreo]

I have a general question on LCD tech.. has there been any news/rumors on what the near future holds? Can we expect LED back-lit LCD monitors in spring 2008? I'm hoping some will be announced at CES at January 2008. 120Hz would also be nice. Dammit there are all these awesome high-end LCD displays at the 40"+ range but when it comes to monitors it's mostly 300 dollar TN displays. I hear the latest Sharp TVs are close to plasma in terms of motion, why can't there be anything like that on computer monitors?

*continues waiting for CES*

 

[alins]

This may be a bit off-topic but I just noticed that newly released Hitachi LCD HDTVs boast about using S-IPS panels. See here for details.

Has anybody seen these in stores anywhere?

 

[ashvarts]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: ashvarts
wow, what a great thread. Thank you everyone, especialy xtknight, for the wealth of information.

I had a question about the lottery, specificaly regarding the Dell 2007WFP. I saw that it was removed from the recommendations because people are getting PVA screens. However, according to X-Bit Labs, you are more likely to get the S-IPS screen. So my question: is it truely a lottery, or is it more likely that Dell is running out of S-IPS screens and now I'm more likely to get the PVA screen? Do they continue to manufacture both? Because if that's the case, I wouldn't mind returning the monitor until I got the S-IPS one.

Last time I checked Dell was still putting tons of VAs in the 2007WFP with IPS ones being more rare, but the last time I checked was ages ago. I really can't keep up on this stuff. HardForum is the best place for info on what is happening here and now with the Dell panel lotteries. Clearly, it is still proceeding as usual (IPS/VA).

Whatever the case I would never buy a lottery monitor unless you know you are fine with the VA panel. It's just a bad idea.

I need a display for photo work mostly, so I've narrowed it down to the Dell and the NEC, but X-bit gave Dell better reviews as far as color reproduction.

Thanks
[art]

X-Bit may have had a flawed review unit for the NEC 20WMGX2 (their black level reading is terrible). I can assure you the NEC 20WMGX2 is just as good or better for editing photos, unless the glossy screen is an impediment. I doubt that this is the case, and I believe your money is certainly better spent on the NEC 20WMGX2 which is cheaper than the 2007WFP at this time after rebates. Just remember to use the 20WMGX2 responsibly (that is, use Native, Standard DV mode, and Advanced DVM=off for color accuracy).

I hope this answers your questions but if not let me know.

Thank you man, you're a godsend for a picky, indecisive, and cheap-skate like myself.

I'm going to avoid the panel lottery based on your advice. $400 for not knowing what you're getting is too much.

Unfortunately I didn't go with the 20WMGX2 because I was afraid that the glossy coating would be an issue because there is a large window to the right of my desk. And since newegg doesn't have a return policy, I couldn't buy it to test out and then return it. By now it's too late anyway, since without the rebate I can't afford it.

Anyway, I'm still looking. Since I can't get an S-IPS at this time because they are too expensive, I'm looking for something in the $200 - $300 tops, I wanted to get a good monitor for photoshop that would hold me over for right now while I'm a poor college student, and eventually get a pro monitor like the top end NECs, once I have the money. Right now I'm borrowing my roomate's vx2235WS, and it's awefull; I see posterization quiet often.

From reading the posts I see that the 215TW is back on the radar possibly, and with the newegg rebate it would be $350, which I'm willing to stretch for if you don't think there's something better out their. Any other monitors I should be looking at?


Thanks again man.

[art]

 

[jardan]

xtknight thank you for your answer. i decided to go for a 19" monitor and i took a look on the first page i saw some models and some other and i am between these three monitors

LG 19'' LCD L1960TR-BF BLACK
(i don't know what BF means)

LG Flatron L1970HR

LG L1982U-BF
(i don't know what BF means)

and

Samsung SyncMaster 971P

i would realy like to know your opinion. i know that the samsung is closer to what i asked but it is more expensive (in greece is more expensive than the link you give here) and the review says "NOT suitable for any multimedia or motion video editing because of poor response time control" and "No adjustment buttons on bezel, settings can only be controlled through software." wich is a bit bad...

please let me know your opinion.

thank you in advance

 

[sunnyoc]

xtknight,

Thanks for the reply regarding the Samsung 215TW and 215TW-TAA. I have another question for you and this might be a recurring question.

This is my situation. I have an Acer 19 inch LCD. I am planning to move my computer to my bedroom and use it to watch TV also at night(mostly wife would be watching it).

So which LCD would be best suited for this purpose. I have built a PC (whisper quiet) for this purpose and has the analog/digital TV tuner built in.

Mostly it would be watching TV, DVDs, watching ripped AVI(movie files), little gaming for kids and regular internet browsing/photoshop/photodraw editing and office work. This is going be all-in-one LCD but mostly it would be used for watching TV, movies and photo editing purpose.

Please suggest me which would be most suitable for my purpose(probably would prefer non glossy but I am not picky).

Thanks for any information.

 

[brimlar]

Just a quick note:

I had previously owned an S-IPS 18-inch display (Dell 1800FP) and a 19-inch S-PVA from Dell. Anyhow, I had been looking at both the NEC 20WMGX2 and the Samsung 22 inch 226bw because I wanted a widescreen, and I selected the 226bw due to its price at NewEgg, and because I mostly do gaming and reading (not graphical design) at that computer.

My observations:

The colors seem slightly off compared to my other panels, but the colors are very vivid (probably due to the contrast) on the 226bw. Also, while playing games, I was blown away by the response rate...I hadn't realized that I had become used to some small ghosting (nothing severe) on my other Dell monitors.

If I were in graphic design, I'd probably definitely go with the NEC 20WMGX2 because the color reproduction is obviously not there with the 226BW, not as precise, and I am surprised to say that I can really tell the difference. Also, the decreased viewing angle on the TN-based 226BW is also highly noticeable compared to IPS or PVA panels...if you don't sit directly in front of the monitor, you are going to see entirely different colors.

HOWEVER, if you do a lot of gaming and not so much graphical design, the 226BW is a great choice....the response rate and contrast are really quite superb. It's so smooth and really a pleasure to sit directly in front of, fully immersed in your game.

Hope this helps someone out in their monitor choice.

 

[Butterbean]

Are 17" glossies still around? I know the 70GX2 is on the way out and was wondering if its last of 17' glossies. I might get a 17" off ebay if the 90GX2 has bad screen door pixel issues compared to 70GX2. Thanks.

 

[Butterbean]

Double post

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: MMAMUK
What is the difference between S-PVA and P-MVA panel technology and which is the better/superior ?

I've looked at the PRIMER, it has descriptions of PVA and MVA but I cannot find any description of S-PVA or P-MVA. Sorry if this has been discussed already.

Thanks

Not much that will do you much good, but this is what is generally believed:

(Fujitsu)MVA: 2 domains of crystals, multidomain vertical alignment
(Samsung)PVA: 4 domains of crystals (1 subpixel), patterned vertical alignment. (PVA=protrusion-less) crystals are aligned more straight to achieve slightly better black level than MVA tech.
(AUO)P-MVA: 4 domains of crystals (1 subpixel), premium multidomain vertical alignment.

(Samsung)S-PVA: 8 domains of crystals (2 actual subpixels per "subpixel"). (S-PVA=protrusion-less) crystals are aligned more straight to achieve slightly better black level than P-MVA tech.
(AUO)AMVA: 8 domains of crystals (2 actual subpixels per "subpixel"). I believe there is still some protrusion here, S-PVA probably still has best black level.

The more domains of crystals that you have, the less viewing angle color shift you will have. You may have a slower response time, however. You will have a higher contrast as well.

In practice, they have gotten response time in S-PVA and AMVA displays as good as PVA and MVA panels through overdrive.

You should probably be looking at either AMVA or S-PVA displays today but it is sometimes hard to distinguish a P-MVA from an AMVA. Most larger panels (>=24") have the more advanced VA panels. Pretty sure that 20.1"/21" from AUO and Samsung are now 8 domain, at least partially.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: techgamer
Do you think any of these top models like the 226bw, l226wt, or VX2255wmb will go on sale for black friday?

My crystal ball isn't working right now. Sorry.

All signs point to yes?

A seperate question I have is in regards to 24" non TN panels and response time. It seems a lot of these have response times over 10ms, is that awful for gaming? how noticeable is it? Are there good 24" panels for gaming that arent $$$$?

Real world response time is quite different than listed response time. Usually the "5 ms" (bwb) TNs will have a response time slower than a "8 ms" (g2g, overdrive) VA display which definitely makes things confusing.

I recommend the HP LP2465 for a cheaper alternative to the BenQ FP241W.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16824176059

It's available for $535 AR at Newegg. I am pretty sure that gaming performance here is as good as the 2407WFP Rev A04. Samsung S-PVA panel here, so I will probably end up putting it on the OP at some point. I would have liked to see an X-Bit review of it though.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: ryedizzel
xtknight, thanks again for answering my questions. btw is LCD technology for computers the same as TVs?

Basically yes. However in TVs you will see more advanced tech. like IPS Pro to get more brightness.

http://www.ips-alpha.co.jp/en/technology/ips.html ( psst..."other type" is P-MVA )

And TVs have more processing/etc for color space conversion (NTSC to sRGB and all that).

 

[xtknight]

First 22" S-PVA, 1680x1050 display.

[applause]

Eizo...hmm..oh well, if it's at a good price, not much to worry about. It is a good sign. Unfortunately I'm guessing this is the only one that will ever exist.

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/news.htm#eizo_s2231w-e

Originally posted by: alexthebored
Thanks for the response xtknight, it was perfect. I think I'm going to get the 226BW, and ignore the PS3 aspect. For one, going with a 24'' would force me to go 1900X1200, which is going to tax my graphics card (which means even more $$). A 22'' seems perfect for me right now. I'll simply worry about getting a cheap TV or something for my PS3 when the time comes; I can go a bit without needing HD

Sounds good to me. And you can wait for more advanced tech on the horizon.

Originally posted by: GeneralOreo
I have a general question on LCD tech.. has there been any news/rumors on what the near future holds? Can we expect LED back-lit LCD monitors in spring 2008? I'm hoping some will be announced at CES at January 2008. 120Hz would also be nice. Dammit there are all these awesome high-end LCD displays at the 40"+ range but when it comes to monitors it's mostly 300 dollar TN displays. I hear the latest Sharp TVs are close to plasma in terms of motion, why can't there be anything like that on computer monitors?

*continues waiting for CES*

Color-filter-less LCD has been in development for awhile. The success of it, I can't tell you much about. Wrote some about it here: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/fo...YaBB.pl?num=1190747669

How it works exactly, don't ask me that either. But it may deliver great brightness, gamut, and response time benefits.

Hmm forget CES, but FPD Taiwan, FPD International (Japan), and CeBIT (Hannover) usually turn up some good stuff.

I see stuff about 180 Hz (probably either prototype/LCD-TV-only tech right now). I don't know what it is about propaganda but it makes me warm and fuzzy inside.

This "FHD" (Full HD) gimmick just means 1920x1080 from what I can tell.

I think TVs get the new tech first because it is easier to implement on a bigger physical scale like that? Think about it: putting more domains in your IPS panel is easier when you don't have to use nano technology to do it. Who knows when all the 120-180 Hz stuff will appear but undoubtedly, PC use would be more disturbed by flickering. Plus TV is largely raster, graphical images more resilient to the harsh algorithms needed to achieve 120-180 Hz if we are talking interpolation. Same goes w/ resolution scaling.

Originally posted by: alins
This may be a bit off-topic but I just noticed that newly released Hitachi LCD HDTVs boast about using S-IPS panels. See here for details.

Has anybody seen these in stores anywhere?

I can't say I have looked, myself, but these look awesome. S-IPS tech is gaining some exposure in TVs, for sure.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: ashvarts
Thank you man, you're a godsend for a picky, indecisive, and cheap-skate like myself.

I'm going to avoid the panel lottery based on your advice. $400 for not knowing what you're getting is too much.

Unfortunately I didn't go with the 20WMGX2 because I was afraid that the glossy coating would be an issue because there is a large window to the right of my desk. And since newegg doesn't have a return policy, I couldn't buy it to test out and then return it. By now it's too late anyway, since without the rebate I can't afford it.

Anyway, I'm still looking. Since I can't get an S-IPS at this time because they are too expensive, I'm looking for something in the $200 - $300 tops, I wanted to get a good monitor for photoshop that would hold me over for right now while I'm a poor college student, and eventually get a pro monitor like the top end NECs, once I have the money. Right now I'm borrowing my roomate's vx2235WS, and it's awefull; I see posterization quiet often.

From reading the posts I see that the 215TW is back on the radar possibly, and with the newegg rebate it would be $350, which I'm willing to stretch for if you don't think there's something better out their. Any other monitors I should be looking at?


Thanks again man.

[art]

Well it is discouraging the VX2235 is bad, as I would have been recommending the VX2255. I don't really know what the difference is. TN panels are vibrant, but for photo editing they are simply a no-no anyway. They can not reveal nuances or consistent color temp in images. Nor can most uncalibrated displays, but VA and IPS displays are better by default.

Your money is well spent on the 215TW without a shadow of doubt. Anything less and you'd be sacrificing half. Besides, the 215TW is about as good for photo editing as you can get.

Even my calibrated P-MVA display couldn't reveal a critical flaw (overbrightness) in the photos I took where it was clear as day on the AS-IPS. But, an S-PVA panel should definitely be better than a P-MVA here. My P-MVA (ViewSonic VP930b) is old, crusty, and only 4-domain.

Originally posted by: jardan
xtknight thank you for your answer. i decided to go for a 19" monitor and i took a look on the first page i saw some models and some other and i am between these three monitors

LG 19'' LCD L1960TR-BF BLACK
(i don't know what BF means)

LG Flatron L1970HR

LG L1982U-BF
(i don't know what BF means)

and

Samsung SyncMaster 971P

i would realy like to know your opinion. i know that the samsung is closer to what i asked but it is more expensive (in greece is more expensive than the link you give here) and the review says "NOT suitable for any multimedia or motion video editing because of poor response time control" and "No adjustment buttons on bezel, settings can only be controlled through software." wich is a bit bad...

please let me know your opinion.

thank you in advance

For LG models -BF, -SF, and -WF always mean black, silver, and white bezel colors, respectively.

The Samsung 971P isn't that great for gaming or movies but maybe you would like it better overall anyway. I don't really know the extent of the response time problem as I haven't used it. Gaming probably isn't too fun on this LCD according to the reviews I've seen but maybe people are blowing it out of proportion.

Try the LG L1970HR, IMO. Decent color accuracy and fast response. No idea what the L1982 is.

Originally posted by: sunnyoc
xtknight,

Thanks for the reply regarding the Samsung 215TW and 215TW-TAA. I have another question for you and this might be a recurring question.

This is my situation. I have an Acer 19 inch LCD. I am planning to move my computer to my bedroom and use it to watch TV also at night(mostly wife would be watching it).

So which LCD would be best suited for this purpose. I have built a PC (whisper quiet) for this purpose and has the analog/digital TV tuner built in.

Mostly it would be watching TV, DVDs, watching ripped AVI(movie files), little gaming for kids and regular internet browsing/photoshop/photodraw editing and office work. This is going be all-in-one LCD but mostly it would be used for watching TV, movies and photo editing purpose.

Please suggest me which would be most suitable for my purpose(probably would prefer non glossy but I am not picky).

Thanks for any information.

Give the Samsung 215TW (non-glossy) or NEC 20WMGX2 (glossy) a try. 215TW sounds best for you and it's available for around $350 AR. NEC is also $360 once again.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...E16824001078&Tpk=215tw
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...6824002319&Tpk=20wmgx2

I think anti-glare would work best here, so 215TW. Hopefully it'll be OK for gaming (definitely for light gaming it should be fine).

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: brimlar
Just a quick note:

I had previously owned an S-IPS 18-inch display (Dell 1800FP) and a 19-inch S-PVA from Dell. Anyhow, I had been looking at both the NEC 20WMGX2 and the Samsung 22 inch 226bw because I wanted a widescreen, and I selected the 226bw due to its price at NewEgg, and because I mostly do gaming and reading (not graphical design) at that computer.

My observations:

The colors seem slightly off compared to my other panels, but the colors are very vivid (probably due to the contrast) on the 226bw. Also, while playing games, I was blown away by the response rate...I hadn't realized that I had become used to some small ghosting (nothing severe) on my other Dell monitors.

If I were in graphic design, I'd probably definitely go with the NEC 20WMGX2 because the color reproduction is obviously not there with the 226BW, not as precise, and I am surprised to say that I can really tell the difference. Also, the decreased viewing angle on the TN-based 226BW is also highly noticeable compared to IPS or PVA panels...if you don't sit directly in front of the monitor, you are going to see entirely different colors.

True...although actually, the "immediate" (close) viewing angles versus PVA are debatable. For minimal movement TN is more often a better choice. Vertically though, don't even talk about it...totally black from below. And for showing stuff to lots of people, VA displays will maintain brightness better at far viewing angles.

The phenomenon of gamma shift in P-MVA panels at small angles really annoys me w/ dark images and I may rather use a TN. But I haven't had a chance to give an S-PVA panel a try so I am stuck with the impressions I have of a P-MVA. I may never get to try an S-PVA for good since I will probably be sticking with S-IPS or derivatives. But, I would love to, actually. I'm sure they have some benefits like less banding and higher contrast. I have only briefly used a Dell 24" S-PVA and I believe gamma shift there was quite a bit less than with my VP930b P-MVA. Also, the anti-glare coating wasn't nearly as annoying. I digress.

I might consider picking up a Samsung 215TW some time to evaluate S-PVA tech. I wouldn't be holding my breath though. That's gonna take some definite...convincing. Plus I'm not all that sure I want older tech again and all that (72% gamut, same stuff I already got). May wait for LED backlight tech but I don't think I'd spend over $400 for an S-PVA at any rate unless I was able to see it first hand first (same with any tech really with few exceptions). I will probably save up for the LCD2690WUXi, hopefully although the lack of video inputs, higher black level, slower response time, extremely high price doesn't bode well with me so the Samsung 275T (widely revered) is still another consideration.

HOWEVER, if you do a lot of gaming and not so much graphical design, the 226BW is a great choice....the response rate and contrast are really quite superb. It's so smooth and really a pleasure to sit directly in front of, fully immersed in your game.

Hope this helps someone out in their monitor choice.

Thanks for the thoughts.

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessments of IPS/VA vs TN panels. The TN panel I have here (L226WT) is more vibrant but it just can't display the subtle nuances that my NEC can. It can not keep its color temperature real consistent (it is like you're losing an "aura" of color accuracy). Instead you get splotchy and high contrast areas of color that can even be realistic at times.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Butterbean
Are 17" glossies still around? I know the 70GX2 is on the way out and was wondering if its last of 17' glossies. I might get a 17" off ebay if the 90GX2 has bad screen door pixel issues compared to 70GX2. Thanks.

Sorry. For all intents and purposes, 17" glossy LCDs do not exist.

I don't know that the 90GX2 has worse SDE issues but it may very well. Some of these things you get used to.

 

[pm]

I bought a 24" Soyo M24EI4 last night to replace a 22" NEC 1350X trinitron CRT. I love the screen for working - the image is bright, beautiful and crisp and the real estate at 1920x1200 is amazing. The colors are nice, the display angle is great and text is crisp and looks fabulous. In fact, I have only great things to say about the monitor until about 30 minutes ago.

I fired up Unreal Tournament 2004 for a bit before going to bed and it was horrible. I played it at my usual resolution - 1280x1024 but that had letterboxing, so I switched to 1280x800. The image looks fine when I'm not moving, but as soon as things get crazy (as they tend to do in UT2004), I'm not sure what happened, but it was like I couldn't see anything very well. I can't explain why exactly things looked awful, but I had a really hard time seeing stuff. It wasn't ghosting I don't think... but whatever it was, it looked terrible and I played horribly, and now I have a bit of a headache.

Is this input lag, is it the response rate (monitor is rated for 6ms), is it the 60Hz refresh? Whatever it is... I'm feeling sad because this wonderful monitor is going to have to go back to Office Max. I'll try it again tomorrow, but I'm sure it wasn't my imagination.

Any guesses on what's causing my problem? I know that I have problems with flicker on CRT's less than 72Hz. I'm a little sensitive to CRT refresh. I understand that LCD refresh is totally different, but I'm still wondering if the image isn't updating fast enough.

I'd love to hear any advice - I don't want to return this screen.


Video card: EVGA 7600GT
Screen: 24" Soyo M24EI4 - lowered contrast and brightness and set color to 6500k and aside from that changed nothing on it.

It's hooked up with DVI, running normally at 1920x1200@60Hz, in game at 1280x800@60Hz. On my CRT this was a good resolution for high FPS.

 

[StarTech]

Any thoughts on the Viewsonic VX1940W ? Newegg has it for $240. It is a 1680x1050.

I just moved and my Dell 2005 wide ended packed in storage. I need a temporary solution until I move to a larger place. Use for web browsing and minor office work.
It may be of value to have longer page (1050) than typical 900.

 

[Paladin]

What is generally the difference between the Samsung 226BW and the 2232BW (newer)

xtknight,
did you notice in that link you posted about the 22" PVA, a little down:

I took the opportunity to ask a representative from Samsung product line about the recent panel lottery on the popular SM226BW model. The issue was certainly acknowledged and was down to unprecedented demand for the screen. However, to their knowledge, the SM2232BW only uses Samsung's own TN Film panel at present, and the aim is to provide all stocks with this panel as many users had hoped for.

so that means all of the 2232BW use the 'S' panel? wouldn't that be the better buy than the 226bw?

 

[yacoub]

Question: Is this monitor still this S-IPS panel? Because it's priced at around $1100 right now on Dell's site, not the $1400 listed in the topic post, so I'm wondering if it's just a sale or if they've switched to a cheaper, crappier panel as they're wont to do.

30": Dell UltraSharp 3007WFP-HC, 2560x1600 (16:10)
* Panel: WG S-IPS (LG.Philips LM300WQ1); true 8-bit, 16.7M colors

 

[nataku00]

Originally posted by: pm

It's hooked up with DVI, running normally at 1920x1200@60Hz, in game at 1280x800@60Hz. On my CRT this was a good resolution for high FPS.

Are you playing in windowed mode at 1280x800 on your 1920x1200 resolution monitor or playing the game full screen at a resolution different from what your monitor is set at?

For LCD's you need to play at the monitor's native resolution for full screen mode or window mode it to a smaller resolution if you don't think your card can handle that many pixels.