[Retired] The LCD Thread

[BernardP]

Great work on the the new guide xtknight.

I have read it all: It is simpler than before and the sequence of information is more natural. I wish I could have read this when I first got interested in LCD monitors.

My only suggestion would be to add info about the ChiMei panel lottery in some variants of the top-rated LG L226 series, under recommendations for this monitor and maybe as another example in the Panel Lottery Appendix.

 

[BernardP]

Originally posted by: mushroomx
I also tried the aspect scaling in the nvidia software (my vid card is 8800gts), it didnt work at all even if I chose the right settings. Do you have any idea how i can get it to work?

First, for the special scaling options to work, the DVI connection must be used. From your message, I understand that is what you tried.

Also, it is a known fact that aspect ratio scaling is currently broken in the 8800 series cards. The latest beta Forceware driver from NVidia is supposed to have fixed that, but it is not something I am following closely. Hopefully, NVidia must be about to release a final driver that fixes this.

You can keep informed about the Forceware drivers on the Guru3D forums.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: mushroomx
Hi, after researching a bit and reading your updated guide (by the way, great job), I have gotten that TN are basically simply bad at grayscale. So it's normal that my lg226wt really fails your grayscale test at your site right?

I can't remember how mine did on that test but I think about half of them showed. TNs have a horrible time with that test (sometimes the dark tones can appear to vanish on slight angle differences).

Originally posted by: mushroomx
Well the thing is, I got an acer al2216wbd two weeks ago to compare side by side and it came with a DVI cable. The al2216wbd had a bluish tint and it was practically impossible to read text because the middle of the screen was fading, however it looked just fine when i played UT2k4 :\ I returned it feeling it wasn't worth the money saved for the quality compared to the LG but before doing that i quickly hooked the LG with the DVI to see if I would notice any difference. I quickly looked at the desktop and there wasn't much change but i guess ill buy a cable soon and give it another shot since i didn't do more Well, I also tried the aspect scaling in the nvidia software (my vid card is 8800gts), it didnt work at all even if I chose the right settings. Do you have any idea how i can get it to work?

I recall that the NVIDIA 8800 or Vista under NV drivers had some issues with scaling...

I also have some suspicion that the acer was defective, since it can't be that horrible can it? Website and desktop icon names were really hard to read, they were fading out. As i mentioned before, the odd part is when i loaded UT2k4, it seemed perfectly fine.

The Chi Mei panels are quite washed out, so maybe it was really that bad. It could probably be helped a little with the right settings.

Originally posted by: BernardP
Great work on the the new guide xtknight.

I have read it all: It is simpler than before and the sequence of information is more natural. I wish I could have read this when I first got interested in LCD monitors.

Thank you. That's what I was intending.

My only suggestion would be to add info about the ChiMei panel lottery in some variants of the top-rated LG L226 series, under recommendations for this monitor and maybe as another example in the Panel Lottery Appendix.

I'm not sure the LG ever used a CMO, and if it did I didn't hear any experience of it. So for now I'm going to leave that off. I think they may have just had CMO in the FCC pics. Also, I'm not sure that they still use CMOs nowadays so I'm not going to put them on the spot. As the L226WT seems fine these days, it's not too much of a priority at the moment. If anything else erupts with regards to L226WTs and CMOs then I'll be on it.

Even with knowledge of all the tech info (which is mostly the OP), actually finding an LCD (if you've never done it before) is pretty difficult. So, the thread itself is still a very vital thing. I was thinking of making a "decision process" section so that people know where to start should they want to attempt their own decision.

It's actually difficult for me to visualize where the difficulties lie, for somebody who has just come on the web and wants to find an LCD. So, first and foremost I would love to hear from those people. Do you find the Resources Links helpful, for example? The tech info tells them what to expect with LCDs, but not how to find a particular model.

Maybe a list of recent reviews would be helpful? I noticed you gave me a link just a few posts back, and that would fit right in honestly.

 

[Nullvoid]

These three roundups over at the russian tomshardware site (babelfish makes them quite readable) seem to cover most of the main 22" models that might be of interest to people. The obvious (and pretty crucial) omission is the LG L226WTQ.

1. http://www.thg.ru/display/22_w...isplay_2007/index.html - Belinea 22W Artistline, Acer AL2216W, Mirai DML-522W100, Asus MW221U & Iiyama E2200WS

2. http://www.thg.ru/display/22_l...itor_2007_2/index.html - Samsung 225BW, Samsung 226BW, Fujitsu-Siemens L22W-3, ViewSonic VG2230WM & ViewSonic VX2235WM

3. http://www.thg.ru/display/22_l...itor_2007_3/index.html - HP W2207, Acer X222w, Hyundai N220, Dell E228WFP & Philips 220WS.


On a totally unrelated note, it looks like I won't be buying a Philips 200WP7ES since the store that had 15+ of them is now magically showing as out of stock. And I can't get any commitment to a possible restocking date beyond "we'll email you when they arrive". The one other place that had them at a realistic price is also out of stock so that only leaves options asking for well in excess of £300...far more than I'm willing to pay. Looking around just to confirm other possible 20" choices, I saw a review thread of the HP W2207 and wow, it looks fantastic. It got me thinking that maybe I will just settle for a TN panel after all...more reading required methinks!

 

[alins]

Brief review of Dell's 2407WFP-HC:
http://computershopper.com/rev...l_ultrasharp_2407wfphc

 

[BernardP]

Originally posted by: Nullvoid
These three roundups over at the russian tomshardware site (babelfish makes them quite readable) seem to cover most of the main 22" models that might be of interest to people. The obvious (and pretty crucial) omission is the LG L226WTQ.

Interesting links Nullvoid. And somewhat ironic that the Russian Tom's Hardware (whatever the link with the original) is so much ahead of the main Tomshardware.com site. Their last monitor reviews date back from March 8, yes, 4 months ago (a few 19-inch widescreens).

 

[BernardP]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Even with knowledge of all the tech info (which is mostly the OP), actually finding an LCD (if you've never done it before) is pretty difficult. So, the thread itself is still a very vital thing. I was thinking of making a "decision process" section so that people know where to start should they want to attempt their own decision.

It's actually difficult for me to visualize where the difficulties lie, for somebody who has just come on the web and wants to find an LCD. So, first and foremost I would love to hear from those people. Do you find the Resources Links helpful, for example? The tech info tells them what to expect with LCDs, but not how to find a particular model.

Maybe a list of recent reviews would be helpful? I noticed you gave me a link just a few posts back, and that would fit right in honestly.

A list of reviews is really helpful, but it involves a bit of work to keep up-to-date, such as adding links, checking that URL's haven't changed and deleting older products. It's your Guide, so you are most welcome, whatever you chose to do.

As for a "decision process", I think that the info you already have in the Guide gives a lot of useful info to help such decision making. The crux of the matter is price, and prices tend to vary quickly over time and are not necessarily consistent between countries. For example, in Canada where I live, the HP w2207 sell for $50 more than the Samsung 226BW, while the LG L226WT sells for $50 less than the 226BW, which is a different relationship than in the US.

It seems difficult to try to automate the decision process. For example, the selector on TFT Central seems of limited practical use. I feel your recommendations are much more useful than such a selector.

Finally, as for the CMO panel in the LG L226, let's say I would be more confident in this monitor if there was no choice between CMO and LPL in the factory menu. I have read an article some time ago that said that LG-Philips would be increasing its 22-inch wide panel production from August on, so maybe this will take care of itself in the upcoming L227. I also saw that LPL has recently completely stopped production of 17-inch and 19-inch panels to concentrate on widescreen panels.

 

[bryanvlo]

So anyone heard what panel the 2407WFP- HC is using? What were the non-HC using?

 

[Labs23]

Hi in here, i need your geeky advices here, since i don't have a 22 inch LCD monitor, i'm not yet familiar of what can it do to me... Well, i'm a gamer-casual one... What i had just used are 19 and 20.1 inch. LCD's, now i want to upgrade to a 22 inch LCD... And my question is: can a 22 inch LCD monitor with a native res. of 1680x1050 will be able to scale to 1600x1200 resolution? It's because i prefer 1600x1200 res. in gaming...

Any comments, and recommendations? Thanks for your advices in advanced...

 

[Nullvoid]

That's what I thought Bernard, "Why the hell haven't these reviews been translated and stuck onto the main THG site?". 22-inch seems to be where a lot of people are looking right now and articles such as those above seem perfect as an aid to deciding on a model. (along with xtknight's guide which is great! )

Oh and yes, there seem to be very different monitor price relationships around the globe. Here are the cheapest costs I can find from reliable stores in the UK:

LG L226WTQ - £187
Samsung SM226BW - £229
HP W2207 - £229.00

So in my case, I wonder if the ergonomics and glossy panel of the HP really justify the £42 extra over the LG.

 

[yacoub]

I would add to your topic post that Input Lag is especially important in FPS games and can be very important for drawing/artwork. You seem to downplay Input Lag in your description when it is actually is one of the primary concerns for some buyers. You might also want to note that S-IPS panels often exhibit much less Input Lag than MVA/PVA panels. This could go in the Primer section right after you talk about Response Time and Ghosting.

 

[BernardP]

Originally posted by: bryanvlo
So anyone heard what panel the 2407WFP- HC is using? What were the non-HC using?

The non-HC uses a Samsung S-PVA. All indications are that the HC uses AU Optronics A-MVA. Why? Because only AU Optronics currently has a wide-gamut 24-inch *VA panel in production.

 

[BernardP]

Originally posted by: Labs23
And my question is: can a 22 inch LCD monitor with a native res. of 1680x1050 will be able to scale to 1600x1200 resolution? It's because i prefer 1600x1200 res. in gaming

Since 1200 doesn't fit into 1050 without rescaling, you seem to be a good candidate for a 24-inch 1920x1200 monitor. Time to start saving

 

[imaheadcase]

Is there a way I can check my monitor 2407WFP-HC Panel when i get it tomorrow with tearing it up? Or should it be just listed on back..

 

[imported_Justins123]

First off, thank you for all this valuable info xtnight.

I'm considering picking up a 20WMGX2. My question is if anyone is using it with an analog VGA connection? I'll be hooking it up to a Thinkpad X61t which does not have a DVI output (on the laptop or docking station).

I'm currently using a 19" CRT and need something with a higher resolution. Am I going to be unhappy with the picture quality via VGA? Is there another LCD that may want to look at? Thanks!

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: yacoub
I would add to your topic post that Input Lag is especially important in FPS games and can be very important for drawing/artwork. You seem to downplay Input Lag in your description when it is actually is one of the primary concerns for some buyers. You might also want to note that S-IPS panels often exhibit much less Input Lag than MVA/PVA panels. This could go in the Primer section right after you talk about Response Time and Ghosting.

Thanks for the suggestion. It did indeed seem a bit biased towards "the other way".

I integrated what I thought was appropriate coverage for the issue in the Primer section (each panel's amount of image delay (response time+input lag) and that more discussion would take place in the next section). The Input Lag section was expanded a bit to cover the "problem areas". I also added measurements and estimates to each recommendation entry for reference. Hopefully this will raise the awareness and provide a way for the user to pick a display that's appropriate for him.

Originally posted by: Nullvoid
These three roundups over at the russian tomshardware site (babelfish makes them quite readable) seem to cover most of the main 22" models that might be of interest to people. The obvious (and pretty crucial) omission is the LG L226WTQ.

1. http://www.thg.ru/display/22_w...isplay_2007/index.html - Belinea 22W Artistline, Acer AL2216W, Mirai DML-522W100, Asus MW221U & Iiyama E2200WS

2. http://www.thg.ru/display/22_l...itor_2007_2/index.html - Samsung 225BW, Samsung 226BW, Fujitsu-Siemens L22W-3, ViewSonic VG2230WM & ViewSonic VX2235WM

3. http://www.thg.ru/display/22_l...itor_2007_3/index.html - HP W2207, Acer X222w, Hyundai N220, Dell E228WFP & Philips 220WS.


On a totally unrelated note, it looks like I won't be buying a Philips 200WP7ES since the store that had 15+ of them is now magically showing as out of stock. And I can't get any commitment to a possible restocking date beyond "we'll email you when they arrive". The one other place that had them at a realistic price is also out of stock so that only leaves options asking for well in excess of £300...far more than I'm willing to pay. Looking around just to confirm other possible 20" choices, I saw a review thread of the HP W2207 and wow, it looks fantastic. It got me thinking that maybe I will just settle for a TN panel after all...more reading required methinks!

Good find. I'm surprised THG doesn't post these on their English site but they have it on their French and German sites as well.

I'll have to see if any more of these reviewed LCDs are worthy of recommendations, but I don't think so.

 

[bryanvlo]

Originally posted by: BernardP

Originally posted by: bryanvlo
So anyone heard what panel the 2407WFP- HC is using? What were the non-HC using?

The non-HC uses a Samsung S-PVA. All indications are that the HC uses AU Optronics A-MVA. Why? Because only AU Optronics currently has a wide-gamut 24-inch *VA panel in production.

But some people have said that panel type has nothing to do with backlighting? Plus tftcentral has the HC using a S-PVA.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: bryanvlo

Originally posted by: BernardP

Originally posted by: bryanvlo
So anyone heard what panel the 2407WFP- HC is using? What were the non-HC using?

The non-HC uses a Samsung S-PVA. All indications are that the HC uses AU Optronics A-MVA. Why? Because only AU Optronics currently has a wide-gamut 24-inch *VA panel in production.

But some people have said that panel type has nothing to do with backlighting? Plus tftcentral has the HC using a S-PVA.

Samsung (and other manufacturers) sell LCD modules that contain a TFT panel with all the backlights pre-mounted. It usually comes with the overdrive chips already there (probably DSP) as well.

 

[JoeIsHere]

Sorry for such a naive question about resolutions and the NEC 20WMGX2.

My old Iiyama CRT is dying. I need a new monitor but I have never used an LCD before. The 20WMGX2 looks perfect for me.

The native resolution for the 20WMGX2 is 1680 x 1050. That may make text a little too small for these old eyes.

Unless I misunderstand, the advice seems to be that's it's best to run an LCD at it's native resolution.


My 2 questions:

If I ran the 20WMGX2 at another of it's supported resolutions, say 1024 x 768, will the picture quality suffer?

Or does the picture quality only suffer if you use an unsupported resolution scaled by the videocard?

Thanks.

 

[BernardP]

Originally posted by: bryanvlo

Originally posted by: BernardP

Originally posted by: bryanvlo
So anyone heard what panel the 2407WFP- HC is using? What were the non-HC using?

The non-HC uses a Samsung S-PVA. All indications are that the HC uses AU Optronics A-MVA. Why? Because only AU Optronics currently has a wide-gamut 24-inch *VA panel in production.

But some people have said that panel type has nothing to do with backlighting? Plus tftcentral has the HC using a S-PVA.

Panel type has nothing to do with backlighting, I agree, but the backlight is an integral part of the panel, Dell can't buy S-PVA panels from Samsung and replace the backlight with Wide-CCFL. The 2407-HC must incorporate a panel that already uses Wide-CCFL.

Take Samsung for example. If you look at their LCD panel page, hopefully HERE, you see 2 distinct 22-inch panels: LTM220M1 and LTM220M2. One has standard gamut, the other has wide gamut. Also, you will find only one S-PVA 24-inch panel and it has standard gamut.

So it is possible that some people, including TFT Central, have simply assumed that the HC version has an S-PVA panel. as this was the panel type of the non-HC

There is no problem with A-MVA. It is an excellent technology. Here is a link to the AU Optronics panel that is presumably used in the 2407WFP-HC: M240UW01 V4

Color Saturation: 92% tells us it is a wide-gamut panel

See the production date: Second quarter 2007. This would jibe with the introduction of the 2407WFP-HC

 

[Araemo]

Does anyone know anything about this monitor?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16824002337

"NEC AccuSync ASLCD203WXM-BK"

I want a 20WMGX2, but I can't afford it. But I don't need the TV tuner or speakers, so I wish they offered a cheaper model without those in the US.

 

[Nullvoid]

Have you guys seen any announcements concerning the new widescreen models AG Neovo is releasing?

The H-w22 is the value offering, no doubt a TN panel: http://www.agneovo.com/global/products/h-w22.htm . It's available here on pre-order for £191.84.

The E-w22, well I'm not qualified to say...it's certainly housed more impressively than the H: http://www.agneovo.com/global/products/E-W22.htm . It's available here on pre-order for £280.73 which is really quite expensive if it is indeed also a TN panel.

Their top of the line one, the X-w22, is much more interesting however. Here's a brief on it: http://www.centenna.eu/Upload/...uction_V2_20070601.pdf , and the main product page: http://www.agneovo.com/global/products/X-W22.htm . Doesn't the mention of colour saturation higher than 92% indicate it's a wide gamut monitor? Anyway, it's on pre-order here for £552.11, which is away up in Eizo territory. Surely it can't possibly also be a TN panel?

 

[yacoub]

cool thanks xtknight!

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Justins123
First off, thank you for all this valuable info xtnight.

I'm considering picking up a 20WMGX2. My question is if anyone is using it with an analog VGA connection? I'll be hooking it up to a Thinkpad X61t which does not have a DVI output (on the laptop or docking station).

I'm currently using a 19" CRT and need something with a higher resolution. Am I going to be unhappy with the picture quality via VGA? Is there another LCD that may want to look at? Thanks!

I have hooked up the 20WMGX2's VGA to my dad's HP dv2000 laptop. The laptop's VGA output is mediocre however (even the connector's pins barely fit into the laptop). This is a problem with the laptop not the monitor. Using it at native resolution was OK but there was some blur here and there, probably not something I'd want to use on a daily basis. Lower resolutions were fine, but then scaling kicks in. For laptop use this is probably a poor choice of monitor. It's a monitor that shows all the flaws of everything, like banding, so it's important that your source be as high quality as possible.

Another possibility is using the laptop over VNC or Netmeeting protocols. I've done the same thing with my dv2000, and that's the way I ended up using it in the end. Even though the mouse was more jerky over the network, the image was perfectly clear because the host, hosting the VNC client, was using DVI. UltraVNC worked great. Of course, since VNC works best with vector/window graphics over the network, gaming will be very slow and ugly (even over LAN apparently).

Of course to use the VNC method effectively you'd have to have another computer (any OS though) with a DVI output hooked up to the 20WMGX2.

Even with VNC, I don't think I was able to trick the laptop to do 1680x1050 so I just used 1280x800, which the laptop's screen itself supported, and used it on my 19" 1280x1024 monitor with the top and bottom cut off. It was a much better experience that way.

The "optimal" res of your 19" CRT was probably 1600x1200 but there aren't any LCDs that would be suitable over a laptop's VGA connection at that kind of resolution or higher. Some 19" CRTs only do 1280x1024 so perhaps that's the case with yours. And, there's always a possibility your laptop's VGA connection is better than mine. I think mine did 1440x1050 reasonably well, so you could consider a 20.1" LCD at that res. (ViewSonic VG series?)

A more economical and perhaps sharper-looking (literally) solution would be a 19" widescreen LCD at 1440x900.

1440x1050 LCDs (I'd get Planar or ViewSonic VG): http://www.newegg.com/Product/...tion=&Ntk=&srchInDesc=

1440x900 LCDs (Samsung 941BW sure has a lot of good reviews): http://www.newegg.com/Product/...tion=&Ntk=&srchInDesc=

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: JoeIsHere
Sorry for such a naive question about resolutions and the NEC 20WMGX2.

My old Iiyama CRT is dying. I need a new monitor but I have never used an LCD before. The 20WMGX2 looks perfect for me.

The native resolution for the 20WMGX2 is 1680 x 1050. That may make text a little too small for these old eyes.

Unless I misunderstand, the advice seems to be that's it's best to run an LCD at it's native resolution.

That's correct.

My 2 questions:

If I ran the 20WMGX2 at another of it's supported resolutions, say 1024 x 768, will the picture quality suffer?

Yes, check Ch. 2.1 (Native Resolution) in the Guide (first post) for more info.

Or does the picture quality only suffer if you use an unsupported resolution scaled by the videocard?

Thanks.

Whether the video card or the monitor scales it, the LCD matrix has to receive a 1680x1050 picture. Since neither the video card or the monitor are perfect, the image quality will suffer. Generally one's not significantly better than the other either (they're usually both mediocre, esp. with text).

Another option is to increase the DPI in Windows, but it can cause window drawing problems with some poorly programmed applications.