[Retired] The LCD Thread

[BernardP]

Re: Samsung 2232GW

Originally posted by: xtknight
I believe the MagicClear coating mentioned on the ad page is really the glossy panel. I don't think there would be a point in releasing it otherwise but who knows...it still looks like a 72% monitor.

Oops! The Magic Clear reference had escaped me amongts all the blabla about wineglass styling. There is also a mention about color: The monitor displays superior color, but I guess this is not explicit enough to mean wide-gamut color. If it had glossy screen and wide-gamut color, the 2232GW would really be a unique product, wineglass or not.

As for wide-gamut color, I notice the LG L226WT has just disappeared from the Futureshop.ca website, and has been replaced by the Acer 2223WD at a similar $299. This might mean the the wide-gamut LG L227WTS is about to become available.

 

[xtknight]

Here is a collection of sRGB images (from Wikipedia Commons) and their simulated aRGB equivalents:

http://xtknight.atothosting.com/sRGB_vs_aRGB/
(nothing will show until you wait for everything to load)

Being simulated, the aRGB images are obviously clipped (even when viewed on an aRGB monitor).

For sunsets (testimage1 and testimage2), aRGB really makes a difference (and that's bad for proofing). For other things like the sandstorm pic (testimage3), it just makes the ground a little more brown. Even this method didn't reveal much differences in the gradients, so I don't think banding is much worse. The overall image though can change quite drastically.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Nullvoid
xtknight, I was just wondering where you thought Eizo's new s2031w would fit in? Here's its product page: http://www.eizo.com/products/lcd/s2031w/index.asp

Pretty neat find. It does sell for a bit more than the 20WMGX2 here also. I wish there were some reviews on it (it does have a 10-bit gamma LUT).

http://www.google.com/products...1w&btnG=Search&show=dd

And here is a specifications comparison between it and the NEC LCD20WGX2(pro) over at Prad.de. I only chose the NEC because both panels are in roughly the same price range (in Europe).

I've not seen any mention before of a 20" widescreen monitor utilising an S-PVA panel so that alone makes it fairly 'special'.

Indeed. I'm glad there is at least one more possibly suitable monitor out there for photo editing.

By the way, great work on your guide (it seems to get better every time I have a look at it)! The amount of info you've manage to compile into that one post is just staggering.

edit - You know I wish more manufacturers would be upfront about what panel technology they have used, instead of having to guess it from viewing angles and response times etc. When you go to the NEC/Viewsonic pages they always tell you, but with others (Samsung, LG, Philips) it's like drawing blood from a stone when trying to find it out. Admittedly it backfires a little in cases such as Acer trying to assert that their al2051w is actually a TN panel not the P-MVA everyone knows it to be, but still, customers welcome openness.

The NEC and ViewSonic sites in the US actually don't tell you most of the time either. But yes I find it kind of stupid since it's discovered very soon anyway what panel they use. I know one manufacturer actually had it listed in the US, I just can't remember which.

 

[Yikes2000]

I created another test image as per mikuto's comment:

Green 185 184 183 182 181

The top half has 50x50 patches of RGB colors (0,181,0) through (0,185,0). The bottom half has (0,183,0) missing, and I could discern the edge between (0,182,0) and (0,184,0) at the middle if I look closely. When these five colors are re-mapped to 92% gamut, the green channel values are 181, 182.33, 183.66, and 185. Can our eyes detect the difference of 1.33? Probably not, since difference of 1 is imperceptible and 2 is barely noticible.

The simulated aRGB and sRGB images are interesting to look at, but we can't make any "color comparison" between them, i.e. one looks more brown or orange than the other. Because non-HC monitors simply can't display HC colors. The only way to compare, is to have the two monitors side-by-side, both properly calibrated. That brings us to the next question, how does one calibrate HC monitors? Could existing colorimeter work with aRGB? Probably not the low-end devices (or software).

Let's assume we do use a 92% gamut LCD for photo editing, then display or print the resulting image elsewhere that is non-HC. What is the worse that could happen? The image looks "duller"? Yes. But could we do "better" if we start out on a 72% gamut LCD? No. The image will look dull at the end device too, without HC colors. The images will look closer to the proof. But again, we need to do an experiment with two monitors (HC and non-HC) side-by-side to see how the final non-HC outputs compare.

I don't know the circumstances surrounding the Samsung 931C calibration report to draw a conclusion. (Tried to read www.flatpanels.dk and couldn't.) I believe it's a 6-bit TN panel, which in itself could throw off the calibration if the dithering algorithm is bad. Also, was the calibration points in sRGB or aRGB? At this point, I would only buy 8-bit HC LCDs, not 6-bit.

 

[xtknight]

It seems as though the top of my 20WMGX2's panel has a bit of heat damage (it's like a light wave of spilled coffee over the top millimeter of it). Hardly visible but I thought it was worth a mention. The S-IPS panel used in here gets quite hot (which is good for response time) and suffers from related problems like pressure and burn-in. The amount I use this thing I'm not surprised, but older LCDs in the house have none of these problems. No dead pixels yet at all, which is a great thing. I wonder if the heat damage is permanent or reversible also, I'll report on that over the next few days. Maybe I should get some sort of heatsink or fan.

Actually the tallest part of the damage is about 5 mm tall from the top.

 

[randomlinh]

I'm not sure if I should love or hate this thread.... I'm looking to possibly get a 20/22" widescreen LCD, most use will be office type work+photo work.. seems like the NEC is good for that. But at that price, I might as well get the Dell 24"... sooo much workspace... drool.

 

[BernardP]

Originally posted by: xtknight
It seems as though the top of my 20WMGX2's panel has a bit of heat damage... The S-IPS panel used in here gets quite hot (which is good for response time) and suffers from related problems like pressure and burn-in... The amount I use this thing I'm not surprised... No dead pixels yet at all, which is a great thing... I wonder if the heat damage is permanent or reversible also...

You are now officially in a pre-shopping mode

 

[mikuto]

Originally posted by: xtknight
It seems as though the top of my 20WMGX2's panel has a bit of heat damage (it's like a light wave of spilled coffee over the top millimeter of it).

Could you upload a photo of it, please?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: mikuto

Originally posted by: xtknight
It seems as though the top of my 20WMGX2's panel has a bit of heat damage (it's like a light wave of spilled coffee over the top millimeter of it).

Could you upload a photo of it, please?

Sure.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9138204@N03/

Keep in mind that exaggerates its real world look quite a bit, but at least it gives you a good idea.

 

[dedejean]

Hi guys, just upgraded my system. I had my 226wtq calibrated so well when i was in XP Pro, now its all pale and un-vibrant. Before with XP, i had 6800GS and under nvidia control panel, i used their COLOR TEST AND CALIBRATION to set it to what i had... now, i have x1950pro and, unfortunately, ati control center DO NOT HAVE color test and calibration...

any ideas? adobe gamma loader will do?

 

[xtknight]

I figured a photo of my setup was long overdue as well. So enjoy: http://www.flickr.com/photos/9138204@N03/825461256/

Originally posted by: dedejean
Hi guys, just upgraded my system. I had my 226wtq calibrated so well when i was in XP Pro, now its all pale and un-vibrant. Before with XP, i had 6800GS and under nvidia control panel, i used their COLOR TEST AND CALIBRATION to set it to what i had... now, i have x1950pro and, unfortunately, ati control center DO NOT HAVE color test and calibration...

any ideas? adobe gamma loader will do?

Yes, Adobe Gamma Loader can achieve the same thing if you adjust it properly. All the NVIDIA applet did was adjust your gamma. It sounds like you need to lower your gamma correction to get a more vibrant picture.

Originally posted by: randomlinh
I'm not sure if I should love or hate this thread.... I'm looking to possibly get a 20/22" widescreen LCD, most use will be office type work+photo work.. seems like the NEC is good for that. But at that price, I might as well get the Dell 24"... sooo much workspace... drool.

Nothing wrong with the Dell. In fact, I recommend that for photo editing too.

 

[mikuto]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Sure.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9138204@N03/

Keep in mind that exaggerates its real world look quite a bit, but at least it gives you a good idea.

Worth a thousand words... although your initial description was quite accurate too - I just didn't expect such a close resemblance.

Annoying problem. Of course, now I'm selfishly wondering whether it's common or not for these panels. I do use mine quite a lot too; my system is set to go into a black screen saver after 7 minutes of inactivity, and to switch the monitor to standby after 10, but still, that only helps when it's idle, which doesn't happen that often...

It does look like something that would be covered by the warranty though, doesn't it?

Please keep us posted on how it evolves.

 

[dedejean]

Originally posted by: xtknight
I figured a photo of my setup was long overdue as well. So enjoy: http://www.flickr.com/photos/9138204@N03/825461256/

Originally posted by: dedejean
Hi guys, just upgraded my system. I had my 226wtq calibrated so well when i was in XP Pro, now its all pale and un-vibrant. Before with XP, i had 6800GS and under nvidia control panel, i used their COLOR TEST AND CALIBRATION to set it to what i had... now, i have x1950pro and, unfortunately, ati control center DO NOT HAVE color test and calibration...

any ideas? adobe gamma loader will do?

Yes, Adobe Gamma Loader can achieve the same thing if you adjust it properly. All the NVIDIA applet did was adjust your gamma. It sounds like you need to lower your gamma correction to get a more vibrant picture.

As always, im very thankful. Thanks. Do you prefer quickgama or adobe gamma for permanent loading with vista or should i use ATI control center (ATI TRAY TOOL)?

 

[randomlinh]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: randomlinh
I'm not sure if I should love or hate this thread.... I'm looking to possibly get a 20/22" widescreen LCD, most use will be office type work+photo work.. seems like the NEC is good for that. But at that price, I might as well get the Dell 24"... sooo much workspace... drool.

Nothing wrong with the Dell. In fact, I recommend that for photo editing too.

Oh, I know, I was just looking for a 20" to save some money Altho, I may end up keeping my iMac and just save longer to slap a 24" dell to it later as I originally planned.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: dedejean
As always, im very thankful. Thanks. Do you prefer quickgama or adobe gamma for permanent loading with vista or should i use ATI control center (ATI TRAY TOOL)?

I use a full profile, not a flat gamma value but it doesn't really matter what loads it. I'd use Adobe Gamma since it's more official and may interface with Photoshop better.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: mikuto

Originally posted by: xtknight
Sure.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9138204@N03/

Keep in mind that exaggerates its real world look quite a bit, but at least it gives you a good idea.

Worth a thousand words... although your initial description was quite accurate too - I just didn't expect such a close resemblance.

Annoying problem. Of course, now I'm selfishly wondering whether it's common or not for these panels. I do use mine quite a lot too; my system is set to go into a black screen saver after 7 minutes of inactivity, and to switch the monitor to standby after 10, but still, that only helps when it's idle, which doesn't happen that often...

It does look like something that would be covered by the warranty though, doesn't it?

Please keep us posted on how it evolves.

I turned it on this morning and it was completely gone. It must just get too hot during the summer days. I wouldn't be surprised if it came back later today, though. The vent behind that spot is practically cold right now, but last night it was scorching hot. I use it at fairly reasonable settings, brightness 46 contrast 30. I'm not planning on RMAing it but if it spreads any more than this I may have to.

It seems exactly like burn in. I wrote the last paragraph 5 minutes ago. Now it's starting to come back (it must be a particularly sensitive spot). It's not even very hot right now although perhaps not all of it is dissipating to where I can feel it. I might add a mounted out-take fan there. I'll see what happens when I turn my taskbar (where it is located) black. This should be the off state on an IPS or VA panel, but it's white on a TN.

It's not equally visible on all backgrounds. It's most apparent on light colors. Other than that, that area reacts just like the rest of the screen. It's probably faster too since it's hotter.

Common with the 20WMGX2? I wouldn't be surprised, because burn-in and various pressure on the panel is very common (there is more backlight bleeding during the first week). It's common for it to get very hot also. I doubt it's classic burn-in since I've never displayed anything like that for a long period of time on the monitor.

This started happening no sooner than Friday from what I remember. And I've been using a much higher brightness lately with a lower contrast. Maybe that is more stressful on it.

 

[xtknight]

The new H-IPS (high aperture ratio IPS) panel has less backlight bleed and no purple hue at wide angles. It also has slightly higher contrast and a little less glittery (?) effect. The last one is probably an update in the anti-glare as I notice none of this glitter with my glossy panel.

Orig. from: http://pigsterwiki.com/

Interesting, informative Japanese site: http://miyahan.com/me/report/c...LCD/LCD2690WUXi_5.html

 

[jim1976]

I am an owner of a Dell 2707wfp from last week..
I wanted the 30incher but the lack of component outputs left me with no alternative..

I was afraid of investing in this monitor due to the relatively big dot pitch (0.303), but I had no other alternative since I wanted a big screen mainly but not only for PC use, but for my PS3 and 360 as well..

All I can say is that I'm really pleased with my choice, it's a very good monitor in terms of brightness,contrast and color quality, and it performs really well with the consoles as well..

Dot pitch is nowhere near annoying, despite the fact that I was using a Dell 2001fp with a much smaller dpi..

I'm really glad with my purchase and I bought it in a good price as well..

Does anyone know a site with tips on how to calibrate my monitor better? I know this is, for the most part subjective, but I could definitely use some tips, especially about color values and temperatures..

 

[lemon45]

I've read this whole thread and searched the forum, and I can't find an answer to this question:

I own a macbook pro and I plan on buying a 22 in LCD to use in both OSX and windows XP. I plan to use the monitor for casual gaming and to watch movies. Certain manufacturers provide calibration software that is compatible with both OS's (ie Samsung's MagicTune) while others are PC only (HP's MyDisplay). I plan on buying either Samsung's 226BW or HP's w2207. Since HP's software is not OSX compatible, will I not be able to fully calibrate the monitor in OSX? Will this be a problem? Or is OSX's Display Calibration Assistant sufficient? Color accuracy is not necessarily important (I won't be doing photo editing or print work), but I would like the display to look good (obviously). Thanks!

 

[Machinus]

How much does one have to spend on a color meter to get the most out of a new LCD?

 

[thestain]

Just wanted to add my $.02 on info I would like to see in this thread and in the reccommended list.

1) Bigger Monitors!!

2) Bigger Monitors!!

I recently purchased the Acer that is so highly regarded here.. the AL 2051W

it is puny. small and suffers from some sort of wide screen bug.. it won't do 1680X1050 in Linux and won't keep it in Windows, but instead will only do 1280X1024 or 1400X1050 in Linux with current Firmware and for Windows.. it would not keep resolutions.. in middle of watching various things.. would down rez..to 640X480 very dissapointing.. but.. did point to need for LARGER monitors for me.

It would be nice if larger monitors were discussed here and put on the recommended list.

I have been following the Olevia 742i and 747i and although they have tv tuners.. seems they might do the job for a media pc??

Also.. lookinng at Viewsonic 28 inch Monitor.. nice to see all the connection possibilities.. etc.. hard to think of $600-700 as budget Monitor.. but..??

and even the new Westy's for connectivity and those on a budget from the new 1080P TVs to the larger 42 and 47 inch 1080P Monitors..

How about some larger Monitors being added to the reccommended list and this thread and... there is the 241WZ from BenQ, is it worth $100 more the the regular 241W??

Why such a HUGE price increase from 22' to 24 inch???

The Stain

 

[Nnyan]

OK so now that the LP2065 is out of consideration b/c of the panel lottery and I can't find any L226WT's I'm back to trying to figure out what to get. Not sure if I should hold off for a few months to see how the new releases pan out.

So far my tenative list is:

HP w2207
LG L204WT
Acer AL2051W

Any other ideas?

 

[Skott]

Circuit City sells the L226WT

 

[BernardP]

Originally posted by: Nnyan
So far my tentative list is:

HP w2207
LG L204WT
Acer AL2051W

Any other ideas?

Wait just a little for the Samsung 226CW and LG L227WTS. Both are 22-inch with extended color gamut.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: thestain
Just wanted to add my $.02 on info I would like to see in this thread and in the reccommended list.

1) Bigger Monitors!!

2) Bigger Monitors!!

I'll probably have to lax the requirements. The amount of recommendations per section has been so small from the beginning since I expected LCD quality to go up, not come down! Silly me. We have mostly TNs nowadays but I'll/we'll have to make do with those.

I haven't recommended the bigger (e.g. 30") monitors since they had no OSD controls or scaler yet. They should soon.

I recently purchased the Acer that is so highly regarded here.. the AL 2051W

it is puny. small and suffers from some sort of wide screen bug.. it won't do 1680X1050 in Linux and won't keep it in Windows, but instead will only do 1280X1024 or 1400X1050 in Linux with current Firmware and for Windows.. it would not keep resolutions.. in middle of watching various things.. would down rez..to 640X480 very dissapointing.. but.. did point to need for LARGER monitors for me.

Sounds like a video card issue to me.

It would be nice if larger monitors were discussed here and put on the recommended list.

I have been following the Olevia 742i and 747i and although they have tv tuners.. seems they might do the job for a media pc??

With no real trustable (in my mind) reviews to go off of, it is a bit hard to recommend them.

Also.. lookinng at Viewsonic 28 inch Monitor.. nice to see all the connection possibilities.. etc.. hard to think of $600-700 as budget Monitor.. but..??

The 28" is a TN.

and even the new Westy's for connectivity and those on a budget from the new 1080P TVs to the larger 42 and 47 inch 1080P Monitors..

How about some larger Monitors being added to the reccommended list and this thread and... there is the 241WZ from BenQ, is it worth $100 more the the regular 241W??

Why such a HUGE price increase from 22' to 24 inch???

The Stain

22"s are TNs, and 24"s are mostly non-TN. That alone can increase the price considerably. Besides, their res is bigger, the scaler chips are more expensive for bigger resolutions, and pretty much everything is more complicated. They generally have more inputs, USB ports, etc...

Actually the Z is probably a better gaming monitor because of lower response time and input lag. A while ago it was a lot more expensive which was why it wasn't recommended then, but it looks like it'll earn a place soon. Thanks for reminding me.