[Retired] The LCD Thread

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Montius
Still really tempted by the 2407WFP-HC...

Would you say holding out for a price drop on an S-IPS panel (like the Planar) would be a better choice? Or would a 2407 now (still at $569 by the way, good deal) be a wise choice?

Now is the perfect time to buy a 2407WFP-HC. S-IPS panels are great but in a lot of cases you really aren't getting much for your money. They would need to be absolutely perfect to demand a $400 premium and with poor uniformity, and still no "glow-proof" coating at really wide viewing angles for dark images, it's looking less attractive. For that price they really need to give us more inputs than DVI and VGA, too. I also like the smaller dot pitch of the Dell.

Of course, the 2407WFP-HC comes with its problems too. Some of the inputs don't work right at certain resolutions (same situation at 2407WFP A04), and there is probably more input lag than the Planar. Uniformity here isn't perfect, either. There is some black crush (loss of dark detail) if you don't calibrate it. Maybe this isn't a problem since profiles are becoming more available for this monitor. And, some people have had trouble with inverse ghosting (overdrive issues).

While the 26" Planar is an S-IPS, due to its lack of inputs and poor uniformity I don't think it's the magic bullet, so to speak. But, yes, it is S-IPS and it has little input lag and good response time, and those qualities are very important for some, esp. gamers. I'm waiting for something that does a little more with the S-IPS technology, personally, especially at $900-1000. Now the LCD2690WUXi is something I'd be looking at and could even save up for (but not at this point). I'm waiting to see what Mitsubishi can bring to the table, and maybe even NEC themselves, especially with regards to H-IPS screens (no glow effect) and a cheaper price. Maybe even an LED backlight.

All around the 2407WFP-HC is simply a better deal right now, unless one of two things are at play:

- You are a gamer who would be very sensitive to input lag.
- You are a photo editor (in which case you may find refuge in the wide viewing angle of the Planar).

If you're a gamer you really should take a look at the BenQ FP241WZ with the black frame insertion (you can turn it off) for smooth motion. Its response time is great alone, too. No, it's not wide gamut. Unfortunately, it also has more input lag than the Planar, according to initial measurements. But this isn't a problem for everyone.

The NEC LCD2490WUXi would be a sealed deal for me if it was:
a) Wide gamut
b) $200-300 less

Those glow-free H-IPS panels will make any geek drool.

And I hope I didn't come down too much on the Planar in this post as it's a very nice monitor no doubt with better overall image quality than the 2407WFP-HC. It's just not the best value at this point but if the price drops $200 honestly the whole world might be taken by storm. I'm willing to bet this will happen over the next few months, and that's why I'm waiting and seeing. I also hope Dell works out some of the 2407WFP-HC's kinks. As if it wasn't already obvious I'm not really happy with either choice right now, but if you need to buy something now, the 2407WFP-HC is probably your best bet. I'm sure 24" TNs are worse and not everyone is as picky as me. Besides it would take a lot more time for me to stew on this before passing up an S-IPS so fast. The Planar's on-screen menu is just like the 20WMGX2's which is very nice.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: KenI
I just bought a Samsung 226CW at Best Buy in Portland Oregon. I had found this forum to be very valuable in my decsion making process, and since it appears that very few people have gotten an opportunity to get their hands on a 226CW, I wanted to share my experience.

I have no prior experience with LCD monitors, so I cannot comment on whether the 226CW does anything better than any other 22" TN panel. What I can say is that I can find nothing to complain about with the 226CW. I run it at 1680X1050, with the DVI cable (and, by the way, the DVI-D cable WAS included). It came from the factory at 100% brightness and 75% contrast and RGBs at 50/50/50, and, frankly, we find that we like running it at those settings. In the future we will probably turn the brightness down, but right now we are enjoying how vivid and crisp everything looks at those settings, from jpegs to screen savers to text. I don't know what blacklight bleeding really looks like, but I stare at a mostly black screen (like when running the Mystify screensaver) and I just don't see any edge-of-screen phenomenon to comment on.

Here are the identifiers - sometimes those tell people "in the know" alot about the true nature of the panel...

Backside label (under plastic pop-off cover that hides the input ports)

Model: 226CW
Model Code: L22MEXSFV/XAA
Color Display Unit Type: GH22WS
SA LR50298
Safety Mark 062506-11
N363 CE
SN: ME22H9NP######Z
Made in Dongguan China (XINF)
Manufactured: June 2007
BN68-######-01

Service Panel (accessed the same way as the 226BW)
Auto Auto On
Pixel Shift Off
Country English
HDCPHotPlug Off
HotPlug Time 9
Scaler-MCU MStar
Version: M-ME22X0CAA-1000
Checksum F56F

All of my comments are to try to help us understand whether Samsung has indeed shipped the 226CW as "the best of the 226BWs, with Wide Gamut", which is their intent, as reported in June in their announcements. I am not experienced enough to know. Like I say, I can't find anything to fault with it, and my expectations on clarity and color vividness have been met. I had originally fallen in love with the LG226WTY-BF I saw on the store floor displays, which I thought had a very crisp, clean look to them, but I couldn't find any local store with a floor model with firmware above 1.10, so I wasn't willing to take my chances that a v1.14 or higher was in the stockroom. The HP2207 was mesmerizing, but our home setup has large windows, so glare from the glossy HP was a deal killer. After seeing the HP2007/2207 in action, you can't say that the colors on the Samsung or LG are 'eye-popping", but, honestly, they are probably more 'real'. The unexpected chance to get a "good" Samsung 22" TN panel, with Wide Gamut to boot, led me to take a chance on buying this 226CW sight-unseen (it was on the Best Buy shelves, but not on floor display, so I was buying on faith). I feel that I made a good decision.

Thank you for this info. Unfortunately I can't make much out of the service menu info there but I'm fairly sure the 226CW is always a Samsung wide-gamut panel. Samsung expected less demand for the 226CW than the 226BW and so they were able to produce all 226CWs at the Samsung factories, supposedly. Even if they do outsource it to AUO and CMO I don't think they will ever resort to standard gamut panels for the 226CW. They'd be in deep trouble if they did that.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: ftrippie
Hi,

did anybody ever test the Eizo's new S2031W? I can't find any tests or reviews on it...

For photoshop work, I am hesitating between:
- Eizo S2031W (around 600 euros)
- NEC 20WMGX2PRO (around 500 euros)
- Samsung 215TW (around 450 euros)
- Apple Cinema Display (20") (around 600 euros)

Of which the Eizo has got the nicest details (on paper) I reckon.

Cheers,
FTrippie

Eizo always has nice paper specs but rarely do their monitors perform better than some alternatives. I haven't seen any reviews of that particular one, either.

The NEC 20WMGX2 Pro looks to be the best deal there. It's a little better than the 215TW for photo editing since it's S-IPS. The Apple Cinema is just an overpriced 20WMGX2 with less features.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Heinrich
My brand new 2407 FPW HC developed two very small very surface scratches somehow after I let a young friend play conquer online for a few hours isgust;

I tried the toothpaste trick by rubbing a bit of toothpase into the tiny scratches, and they disappeared. I'm not even sure where they were anymore.

Should I be concerned about a year from now?

Thanks for the tip, I'm glad you got that fixed.

I don't know what will happen in a year... If it looks fine now, probably nothing.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: BernardP
Finally, XBit Labs turn their attention to 22-inch monitors:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl...er/display/22inch.html

There is a very interesting presentation of RTC artifacts problems on the LG L226WTQ, as well as comparison between the three versions (S, A, C) of the Samsung 226BW.

This is only Part 1. Other reviews in this category are sure to follow

Oh my. Obviously they weren't pleased. I am fairly certain the L226WTQ's RTC problems are gone with the latest rev (I've seen countless confirmation of this). They really should have gotten a later rev before making a final decision.

Their comparison of the three 226BW models is interesting to say the least. I don't think I want to recommend it at this point still, because the L226WTQ is better overall without its RTC problems now.

 

[Montius]

Haha, always making things so difficult. Tsk. Tsk. Though it is appreciated I really find myself wondering how much of the difference I'm going to notice, especially considering my lack of experience with high end LCDs.

However, considering I know someone (not within driving distance) who has a 2707, and considering he loves it, is using it uncalibrated, plays games, and just came from the "CRTs ONLY!" club...Very tempting.

I understand that you're very picky about monitor qualities, and if I had a bit more patience/money I might be too, but as a first LCD buy, can I go wrong with the 2407-HC. And if I can't find a profile for it, I'd definitely buy a calibrator.

On that note, you mentioned in the OP that you're not sure about the effects of the recommended calibrators on WG monitors, any update on that?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Montius
Haha, always making things so difficult. Tsk. Tsk. Though it is appreciated I really find myself wondering how much of the difference I'm going to notice, especially considering my lack of experience with high end LCDs.

However, considering I know someone (not within driving distance) who has a 2707, and considering he loves it, is using it uncalibrated, plays games, and just came from the "CRTs ONLY!" club...Very tempting.

I understand that you're very picky about monitor qualities, and if I had a bit more patience/money I might be too, but as a first LCD buy, can I go wrong with the 2407-HC. And if I can't find a profile for it, I'd definitely buy a calibrator.

On that note, you mentioned in the OP that you're not sure about the effects of the recommended calibrators on WG monitors, any update on that?

Did you actually think coming in here would make your decision easier?

No, you can't go wrong with it (2407WFP-HC). End of story. Hopefully that made things easier than my prior ramblings. Omitting something that might matter to you is not something I want to do, though. If the Dell didn't operate properly on Mars I would want to let you know.

I just can't guarantee that you won't see input lag, but the 2707WFP also has as much or worse.

I will update the OP. Current colorimeters should do great with wide gamut displays. I know the Eye One Display 2 is fine, but I think the Spyder 2 also does a great job. I am quite sure you will be very pleased by the 2407WFP-HC's performance as it also has many advantages over the Planar.

 

[ftrippie]

Thanks xtknight, that's really helpful! Will go for the NEC then, it also seems to be favoured for various other tasks (like multimedia etc)

BTW, I did find another small review/comparison of the Eizo against the NEC, in which the reviewer favoures the Eizo. But it's hardly substantial.

Here it is, it's in German, but the last 'graph' will speak for itself:

prad.de

Cheers,
FTrippie

 

[tw33ter]

Originally posted by: xtknight

It's gotta be the onboard VGA. I have the exact same experience with my mom's HP with integrated Intel Extreme graphics (I really need to get her a dedicated card). My HP dv2000 notebook with integrated graphics also has blurry VGA output. The only video outputs I trust anymore are those from high-end GeForce 7/8 cards or comparable ATIs.

The GeForce 7600GT is a great mid-range card for occasional gaming and very nice video output (it's DVI). I'm sure something cheaper would suffice, although at the same time I'm not so sure because of all the bad video card experiences I've had. My Radeon 9500 PRO's VGA at 1280x1024, connected to a 17" Samsung 710t, was nothing to write home about either. Yet, my GeForce 7800GT connected to the NEC 20WMGX2's VGA port exhibits no, or very little, quality differences when compared to its DVI hookup.

That's what I was thinking too. So my next question... I'm pretty sure she's only got a pci slot, which video card would you suggest? I've seen x1500's and 6200's in the pci flavor, but that's about as new as I've come across in terms of current generation pci video cards.

 

[kamiller42]

I've been wanting to get an LCD for a long time. I'm still using two Samsung tubes, 957MB (1600x1200 on 19". Drool.) and 955DF (ho-hum). The more I read this thread and other articles about LCDs makes me think they are still not ready for prime time. Are the issues of ghosting, uneven color, limited color range a little overblown? When I plan to move to LCD, I plan to go with 2 or 3 of them. At $500 a pop, I want to make sure I'm happy for a good while. Should I wait for the DisplayPort generation to show up?

 

[paul01]

hello,
being more than a year old, is the NEC 20WMGX2 still among the best in it's price range? or is there now a better alternative?
i need a monitor for photo editing mainly but will be doing video editing as well in near future.
thanks,
Paul

 

[paul01]

i forgot to ask if there is still a rebate for this monitor (in canada).

 

[Montius]

Originally posted by: xtknight I'm waiting for something that does a little more with the S-IPS technology, personally, especially at $900-1000. Now the LCD2690WUXi is something I'd be looking at and could even save up for (but not at this point). I'm waiting to see what Mitsubishi can bring to the table, and maybe even NEC themselves, especially with regards to H-IPS screens (no glow effect) and a cheaper price. Maybe even an LED backlight.

When do you foresee something like this rolling around? Are you anticipating higher quality (affordable too, that's important) S/H-IPS panels by the years end? or is it more something to look for a few years down the road when the 2407's been put to good use?

Originally posted by: xtknight If you're a gamer you really should take a look at the BenQ FP241WZ with the black frame insertion (you can turn it off) for smooth motion. Its response time is great alone, too. No, it's not wide gamut. Unfortunately, it also has more input lag than the Planar, according to initial measurements. But this isn't a problem for everyone.

A lot of this seems to be coming back to the fact that I don't know what I'm going to perceive as excessive input lag or ghosting, so aside from that, does the BenQ FP241WZ justify a $200 premium over the 2407-HC? I've read that it's got great inputs and quality for dual use as a monitor/TV hookup, but the ability the watch TV on it is hardly my concern.

I'm/I have been asking a fair amount of questions, hope it's not bothersome, all this help is awesomely appreciated for the picky and weary consumer.

 

[Montius]

A quick question to all that have the Dell 2407WFP-HC and use it for gaming: has anyone found there to be noticeable ghosting/input lag issues that compromise your ability to effectively play and enjoy games?

 

[thestain]

Xtknight or anyone else have any thoughts on HannsG Monitors.. gets great reviews on Newegg, yet... not much press elsewhere. I was looking at the 22' and the 27.5 inch for my brother.. stand is only 23 inches wide so he is leaning toward the smaller, while liking the idea of bigger.

27.5 inch.. http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16824254026

22 inch .. with dvi-i for old componet to dvi-i input http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16824254020

 

[BernardP]

Originally posted by: xtknight
...you can't go wrong with it (2407WFP-HC). End of story.

The Dell 2407WFP-HC finally went down to C$599 today for one day (Dell Canada Days of Deals). This is fair compared to the US sale price of $569

This was my threshold, as the sale price has been stuck at C$649 for months. I figure it will again take months before the next price drop to $549.

So I ordered one

I could satisfy myself with a $300 22-inch TN, but what I really want is a 24-inch monitor with a better panel. So there, it's done.

 

[Aversion]

Originally posted by: BernardP
The Dell 2407WFP-HC finally went down to C$599 today for one day (Dell Canada Days of Deals). This is fair compared to the US sale price of $569

This was my threshold, as the sale price has been stuck at C$649 for months. I figure it will again take months before the next price drop to $549.

So I ordered one

I could satisfy myself with a $300 22-inch TN, but what I really want is a 24-inch monitor with a better panel. So there, it's done.

That's an awesome price. I might take the plunge too.

As always though, I have one question before I do. I have a modern desktop but I also run an Inspiron 9300 laptop. Can I run the 2407 off the laptop as well? It has 2gigs of ram and a dedicated 128meg video card, the x300 I think. I would like to be able to use it to give presentations with the monitor in the meeting room (the desktop is kinda wired in to where it is). I have the 17" 1920x1200 screen on the laptop right now so I know the video card runs the resolution, and it will run a game like BF2470 pretty well, but will I run into problems with it and the 2407-hc?

Thanks.

 

[erikt]

A quick question about recommended colorimeters. I'm debating getting an i1 Display 2, but I would like it to work well with my DLP RPTV as well as my LCD. Anyone had any experience using this colorimeter with a DLP?

Also, is there any major difference between the Pantone and the Gretag-Macbeth software? A quick price check found the Pantone to be roughly $65 cheaper than the Gretag-Macbeth version.

Thanks,
erikt

 

[abaqus07]

Awesome man thank u so much for this deal.

 

[abaqus07]

Really thank u.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Montius
When do you foresee something like this rolling around? Are you anticipating higher quality (affordable too, that's important) S/H-IPS panels by the years end? or is it more something to look for a few years down the road when the 2407's been put to good use?

First, I'm waiting for different revs of the monitors (PX2611W, 2407WFP-HC, both new) to come along to perhaps solve some problems.

I'm hoping somebody else will capitalize on S-IPS panels by providing a cheap but capable consumer monitor, just like Planar is trying to do. I'm either hoping the Planar gets $200-300 cheaper by year's end (not such a far-fetched theory) or that other cheaper S-IPS alternatives will appear. Something tells me a new S-IPS model will be a long ways away.

The amount of data on the PX2611W is decent, but none of it was put in retrospect to other monitors on the market so it's hard to know how good it is. The same goes for the 2407WFP-HC: I want X-Bit or BeHardware to review it along with the typical charts, etc.

On HardForum it seems like they (er, ToastyX at least) are finding LCD problems that don't even exist on the PX2611W (checkerboard patterns? what?) but I didn't see much focus on how it does in movies or games, at least compared to the 2407WFP-HC. There's only so much theoretical tests can reveal and so far it's been nothing different from what you'd see with other LCDs. One poster said the 2407WFP-HC had more immediately pleasing colors and doubted the $400 premium was warranted for the Planar. He said, perhaps the smaller dot pitch made him like the Dell more.

I think it's really stupid that for $400 more the Planar has no inputs other than DVI/VGA and it can't even do 1080i over VGA properly (it shows up as 640x480 according to reports). The problem is, it's not a consumer monitor and they claim these are "consumer" features. Do I want to pay $1000 for something like this, when my NEC that is currently $430 does it with no problem?

For some reason, S-IPS is only targeted at business now. See, NEC did something that actually made sense with the 20WMGX2: they gave consumers an S-IPS panel, and all the features and a lot more than you'd expect on a 20" panel, then boosted the price, but not beyond what it was worth. Obviously it was a success.

I have heard that the upcoming 24WMGX3 will, sadly, be S-PVA and not S-IPS.

A lot of this seems to be coming back to the fact that I don't know what I'm going to perceive as excessive input lag or ghosting, so aside from that, does the BenQ FP241WZ justify a $200 premium over the 2407-HC? I've read that it's got great inputs and quality for dual use as a monitor/TV hookup, but the ability the watch TV on it is hardly my concern.

No, it definitely doesn't justify being $200 more IMO since it has a lower gamut. Response time probably isn't that much different. I do rate it higher since it has better inputs and on my ratings I don't care about price, but the 2407WFP-HC is a better deal.

I'm/I have been asking a fair amount of questions, hope it's not bothersome, all this help is awesomely appreciated for the picky and weary consumer.

Not at all. Ask away. I'm dealing with the same dilemma right now too (PX2611W vs. 2407WFP-HC) and I wouldn't be able to tell you what I am going to get. But, I won't be ordering until later this year so perhaps different revs of this or that monitor, or even a completely different model will solve the mystery.

 

[BernardP]

Originally posted by: Aversion
I have a modern desktop but I also run an Inspiron 9300 laptop. Can I run the 2407 off the laptop as well? It has 2gigs of ram and a dedicated 128meg video card, the x300 I think. I would like to be able to use it to give presentations with the monitor in the meeting room (the desktop is kinda wired in to where it is). I have the 17" 1920x1200 screen on the laptop right now so I know the video card runs the resolution, and it will run a game like BF2470 pretty well, but will I run into problems with it and the 2407-hc?Thanks.

If you have an X300 and if it has external DVI output, I don't see why you couldn't run the 2407 off the laptop. But if you only have external VGA output on the laptop, picture quality might suffer on the 2407.

 

[paul01]

xtnight
you already own the NEC 20WMGX2 and are now considering purchasing a Dell 2407WFP-HC? what are u planning to use the monitor for?
i wonder if that kinda answers my question regarding buying the year old NEC or looking for a better/cheaper alternative for mainly photo editing but i will be doing some video editing soon.
*nope...just had a look back at your stats and it seems the Dell is quite a bit more $$$ and has a slower image delay.
is there any other monitor i should check out before committing to the NEC?
thanks
Paul

 

[Aversion]

Originally posted by: BernardP
If you have an X300 and if it has external DVI output, I don't see why you couldn't run the 2407 off the laptop. But if you only have external VGA output on the laptop, picture quality might suffer on the 2407.

Yeah, it does have a DVI port at the back. That's good to hear, time to push the button I think

 

[ftrippie]

Like Paul01, I am basically at the same...

the 20WMGX2 seems to be the best choice for a 500 euro photo-editing screen. The only thing bothering me is the glossy screen (but I haven't really seen it).
I really wish there would be a more indepth comparison with the S2031W...