[Retired] The LCD Thread

[Lass]

Hi, any help choosing an LCD for editing Adobe 1998 & poss. in future prophoto RGB .
I like the price & looks of the : Acer AL2051W but not in the photo editing section.
How would to compare to it screen on my iBook? I'd like to get closer to a screen without getting zapped by the EMFs from below the keyboard area of the iBook. Also want to avoid the change of darkness as I move or with the tilt of the screen.
I get by editing with this iBook, how's it Gamut compare?
The Acer is available for the same price at Tiger Direct at the larger 22" size.
Would it be as good as the 20"?

The sceaming deal on the NEC 20WMGX2 is over on Sept 1st. It's not in the photo editing section either, though in the gaming section it says
For photo editing or DTP, use DV Mode Standard and Advanced DVM Off settings only.
I would need to connect with the VGA Adaptor not DVI, would this work for me?
Does this mean it would be OK for Adobe 1998?

The only screen in the print editing section that attracts is the Samsung SyncMaster 971P
which is available at Circuitcity for $224.96 in Black right now. They don't have the white.
Is it calibratable on my Mac as it is only adjustable with it's own software which doesn't seem to work well acording to reviews one has to rely on the presets which are good, but accurate?

Just wondering if it's worth spending more for wider gamut. What gamut am I seeing now on my iBook so I can compare.

Thank for any help.

 

[Majed]

thank you all for helping me to make my decision.
and i'm close to buy Dell 2407WFP-HC. but...
one thing left i have to be sure about it.

the Ghosting issue!. how bad comparing to hp w2207?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Majed
thank you all for helping me to make my decision.
and i'm close to buy Dell 2407WFP-HC. but...
one thing left i have to be sure about it.

the Ghosting issue!. how bad comparing to hp w2207?

The 2407WFP-HC probably has better response time for the most part. As you can see (from BernardP's review), not everyone notices the inverse ghosting. I'm guessing it's an isolated problem, possibly not any worse than the w2207 you have right there. I don't have enough info to get to a conclusion.

 

[Montius]

I just tested out UT2k4, and there was definitely some noticeable ghosting. If I'm not paying attention/focusing on it, it almost gives the feeling of bloom, a kind of surreal brightness with darkened edges. But standing in front of a pillar and strafing back and forth there is an obvious blackish trail of the object, almost like a dark highlight.
I also noticed ghosting while moving my mouse around quickly on top of a black image/background (not the mouse trail, but a very faint, quick to fade, continuous mouse trail, almost a yellow gray color).

As far as input lag goes, I didn't notice any. I don't play twitch shooters (UT, Quake 3) competitively or on a regular basis, but I've had enough play time to know that it's nothing I would consider detrimental. I have tested out with calibration but I'm going to try out Bernard's settings, and try some of my own.

How is Dell's QA? I wonder if my experiences are shared by all others. The lower left portion of the screen (probably an 1/8 of overall screen real estate) has a very obvious pink hue to it. There is essentially no backlight bleeding.

 

[konakona]

I am quite skeptical, but if this person is right then...
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2085928&enterthread=y
he claims the $299 soyo (24'') is S-PVA. Again, I find it very hard to believe but oh well

 

[Majed]

One last question.
what about LG l246wp? is it better than Dell 2407WFP-HC ?
many people recommended it!.

 

[Montius]

A comment on the ghosting issue I previous stated on the 2407WFP-HC. While it is possible to detect ghosting in FPSs, so far during regular play I find that I never notice it. If I stop immersing myself in the game and deliberately look for ghosting, it's apparent, but during regular play it doesn't appear noticeable.

 

[BernardP]

Originally posted by: xtknight
As you can see (from BernardP's review), not everyone notices the inverse ghosting. I'm guessing it's an isolated problem, possibly not any worse than the w2207 you have right there. I don't have enough info to get to a conclusion.

I have spent some more time looking for the "ghosting" aka RTC artifact on the 2407WFP-HC.

Contrary to Montius comments, I don't see the telltale trail when moving the mouse pointer on a black background. But there is a definite paler halo all around the mouse.

I have also tried the infamous red circle on grey background. I have made the RedDotOnGrey thing:

Free Gift!

If you don't have an image viewer, open in Paint, minimize Paint as much as possible, then move this around on your desktop. RTC artifacts are supposed to be seen as a greenish trail behind the red dot. I have seen bad looking pics of this test on the LG L226WTQ and Samsung 226BW with C panel. I don't see a greenish trail on my 2407WFP-HC, but I can see a small partial pale halo following behind when moving at a certain speed.

I also went to HardForum and tried moving the mouse pointer on the various shades of grey, dark grey and black on this site. There, I could see a small black shadow trailing behind the pointer on a specific tone of dark grey. But to see it, I have to move the pointer at the right speed, not too slowly, and not too fast.

So, all things considered, I have decided not to worry anymore about RTC artifacts. I know they exist on all monitors with overdrive but they don't bother me on my 2407WFP-HC.

 

[Compellor]

Originally posted by: Majed
One last question.
what about LG l246wp? is it better than Dell 2407WFP-HC ?
many people recommended it!.

I bought the LG L246WP from Best Buy last weekend and it's a decent monitor but it has some faults. I should mention that the build date on mine is January 2007.

The IQ is only good when using the sRGB color temp setting. 9300k, 6500k and User modes are worthless if you want to prevent black crush along with washed out looking blacks. For some reason, when the brightness setting is set lower than 63, black crush becomes noticeable. And because the brightness setting is so high, the blacks look washed out. Adjusting the contrast setting does nothing to fix it. This seems a bit odd to me but it might be because of the early build date. It probably just needs a firmware update to fix it.

Now, when using the sRGB setting, blacks and contrast look excellent. But you are limited to only adjusting the brightness setting. If you want to adjust contrast or colors, you need to do it with the video card CP. The problem I'm having with sRGB on this monitor it that there is pink in various shades of gray. I can't seem to get rid of it without making the grayscale look green. There is pink in the grays on the other color temp settings but it's not as bad.

Edit: I was able to reduce the pink after more calibration. What worked for me was to set Blue to 42, Red to 47 and Green at 52 (Brightness) using the NV control panel. sRGB along with those settings should get you a near perfect grayscale.

Aspect scaling doesn't appear to work on this monitor. It will do 1:1 pixel mapping but you have to manually select it on the monitor.

Gaming is great on this monitor as is DVD playback. I do not detect any lag or see any ghosting. It's been reported that the this monitor uses the same P-MVA panel as the 24" BenQ, so the same quality can be expected.

 

[frythecpuofbender]

Can someone explain to me the differences in performance/IQ when using graphics card /LCD for scaling? It seems I have native scaling with my LG226WA or I can activate Nvidia control panel scaling and then my 8800GTS 640MB does the resolution scaling? Is there a performance loss when the graphics card has to scale? Does it look better? Anyone with experience?
I'm playing R6:Vegas right now in 1440x900 on my 1680x1050 and besides some small text bluring it looks very good.

 

[stylesjl]

Hey all, to bad I stumbled upon this thread to late. I ended up buying a Dell 2407-HC about 10days ago. I noticed some of the recent posters speculating about this monitor. Well you should know that the 2407WFP-HC is having some major ghosting/shadow issue right now. We haven't been able to receive proper help on the dell forums.

Heres the post:

http://www.dellcommunity.com/s..._date_ascending&page=1

Link to a video of the ghosting issue:

http://video.google.com/videop...0166121612925274&hl=en


I purchased this for everyday PC use and games. Outside of games the monitor is really great, the vibrant colors and all. During games though the problem is definitely turning out to be a dealbreaker for me. We have been waiting for a Dell rep to get back to us on a fix but it seems like they keep stalling. After reading the OP's post, maybe this has something to do with the panel used in the 2407WFP-HC and this is the result of the high ms? Just wish they had the S-IPS in the 24", ebcause the 30" seems to be doing a lot better.

Anyway, not sure how Dell is going to resolve this, hopefully we hear something soon. More and more people keep comming up and complaining. I would suggest holding off on buying this model for now.

 

[BernardP]

Originally posted by: stylesjl
Hey all, to bad I stumbled upon this thread to late. I ended up buying a Dell 2407-HC about 10days ago. I noticed some of the recent posters speculating about this monitor. Well you should know that the 2407WFP-HC is having some major ghosting/shadow issue right now. We haven't been able to receive proper help on the dell forums.

Heres the post:

http://www.dellcommunity.com/s..._date_ascending&page=1

Link to a video of the ghosting issue:

http://video.google.com/videop...0166121612925274&hl=en

Sad to see stylesj. You must have got a lemon. The videos show it well. You seem to have both regular ghosting (multiple paler white cursors) and RTC artifacts (inverse color ghosting).

I think only some units are affected. See my post above for my own experiments about this.

 

[stylesjl]

Well theres about 10 of us on the Dell forums with this problem. Also when I purchased my monitor, 3 of my buddies did aswell. Total of 4 2407WFP-HCs ordered and I went and checked, all 4 have this issue. It seems a lot of people mistake this for some kind of blur effect. My friends rarely play games so this wasn't an issue for them but I'm just hoping Dell comes back with a fix or new revision. Something has to be done as this is ridiculous.

 

[xtknight]

I think there are several factors in the ghosting issue:
- The particular transition in question
- Color/contrast settings
- The way you move the mouse
- Whether you notice it

So, it's understandable the effects are hard to reproduce at times due to unit variation and your own perception of it.

The gamma settings adjustable in the service menu (R/G/B) can make the problem better or worse depending on how you set them. Let's say the monitor had a problem accelerating the tone "60", like in RGB(60,60,80), causing a yellow tone due to the "60" R and "60" G being taken too far. And, this happens only at gamma settings 100/100/100. If you lowered the gamma correction a bit, the tone might become RGB(55,55,75). Let's say it had no trouble accelerating 55, 55, or 75. Then, there would be no problem on this same tone. But there would still be a problem on a slightly brighter tone yielding RGB(60,60,80) at these gamma settings. Effectively, you've migrated the problem to a different set of color transitions but it's in no way solved.

After watching the video I've decided to make note of it in the Notes section of the 2407WFP-HC but not to take it off yet. I may change my mind here, but a lot of people don't seem to notice this problem (but certainly the ones who would should avoid this monitor). I can't say my ViewSonic VP930b was great for gaming either. You'd see some red trails in BF2 but it was either that or blurring. It had trouble with dark transitions like most VAs, but it wasn't all that bad of a monitor for gaming. If you're an all-around PC user with a little gaming on the side then the 2407WFP-HC is for you. If not, then avoid it and get a monitor better suited to gaming rather exclusively, such as the BenQ FP241 series or even the Samsung 275T.

Edit: it's still in the office work and print editing sections, but for now it has been removed from the Multimedia section as it's no longer exceptional for this purpose.

 

[stylesjl]

Well glad I could put this out there so potential buyers know. Its def very severe, you don't have to be in a game to see this. I'm not sure how people overlook this. I think its just a matter of time before you see it. Eventually you'll goto a website or have a wallpaper with the certain colors that cause this. Once you see your cursor multiply by 10 then you'll know. =)

I'm very disapointed with Dell at this point. Customer service hasn't gone to well, ontop of this major problem after so many 2407 revisions. I just fail to see how QA could pass a monitor along like this.


Hows the NEC 20WMGX2 working out for you? I might take a look at that.

 

[Majed]

firstly.
thanks alot to everyone helping, that's very nice from u.

secondly...
i was just a 1ml away to make my decision to buy DELL until see the thread about the ghosting/shadow issue.
that's really will make my day sooo dark.

Compellor...it's look like you've edited your reply about LG..the last 2 lines right?! something diffrent as i remember!.

---
Compellor.. i want to ask you about the Quality/performance of non-native resolutions on pc with games.
my hp w2207 do it well..what about LG?
will be glade to answering me this.
or any one here?

 

[BernardP]

It's a good thing I got my 2407WFP-HC before reading these latest posts from stylesjl, because they would probably have kept me from ordering.

I don't know if I got a good sample or if am am not sensitive to RTC artifacts, but I see little of these effects and certainly nothing comparable to stylesjl's video. I am keeping mine, unless something unexpected develops in my 30-day Guaranteed Satisfaction window.

If I had not gotten the 2407, I would probably have chosen a 22-inch TN without overdrive (5ms). This would have certainly been adequate, but then I would have had to live with the vertical viewing angle color/brightess shift that I can see all the time without looking for it (I have a 19-inch Dell with TN panel at work). By getting an S-PVA panel in the 2407, this is something I knew I wouldn't have to worry about.

I guess those who are worried about the risks of RTC artifacts on the Dell but also on other monitors (LG L226WTQ, for example) should buy a monitor only at a B&M store that has a no-risk return policy.

 

[Montius]

Originally posted by: stylesjl
Hey all, to bad I stumbled upon this thread to late. I ended up buying a Dell 2407-HC about 10days ago. I noticed some of the recent posters speculating about this monitor. Well you should know that the 2407WFP-HC is having some major ghosting/shadow issue right now. We haven't been able to receive proper help on the dell forums.

Heres the post:

http://www.dellcommunity.com/s..._date_ascending&page=1

Link to a video of the ghosting issue:

http://video.google.com/videop...0166121612925274&hl=en


I purchased this for everyday PC use and games. Outside of games the monitor is really great, the vibrant colors and all. During games though the problem is definitely turning out to be a dealbreaker for me. We have been waiting for a Dell rep to get back to us on a fix but it seems like they keep stalling. After reading the OP's post, maybe this has something to do with the panel used in the 2407WFP-HC and this is the result of the high ms? Just wish they had the S-IPS in the 24", ebcause the 30" seems to be doing a lot better.

Anyway, not sure how Dell is going to resolve this, hopefully we hear something soon. More and more people keep comming up and complaining. I would suggest holding off on buying this model for now.

Exactly the same with my monitor.

Shame because this monitor is gorgeous otherwise, but I can see ghosting in about 60% of the actions I do, not even just related to games.

Interesting to note that on HardOCP, there's a small amount of people who are experiencing this issue. What is the likely hood that it is related to a certain revision/batch? And perhaps replacing the monitor could help?

Originally posted by: Chris M from the Dell Forums
Do you think the monitor could be returned later on as a technical issue once the new revision comes out?
* Yes.

Also, when will we know when an A01 comes out in the first place?
* I cannot discuss panel revisions.

Will you be posting a notice here saying that it happened?
* I would only report that a fix has been found and that you should initiate an exchange through Technical SUpport.

Has anyone had any experience getting a monitor replaced for a technical reason? Especially when it's past the satisfaction return date?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Lass
Hi, any help choosing an LCD for editing Adobe 1998 & poss. in future prophoto RGB .
I like the price & looks of the : Acer AL2051W but not in the photo editing section.
How would to compare to it screen on my iBook? I'd like to get closer to a screen without getting zapped by the EMFs from below the keyboard area of the iBook. Also want to avoid the change of darkness as I move or with the tilt of the screen.
I get by editing with this iBook, how's it Gamut compare?

The iBook may have 45% or 75% gamut, I don't know.

The AL2051W would be a good improvement over the iBook that's for sure. It uses an 8-bit P-MVA.

The Acer is available for the same price at Tiger Direct at the larger 22" size.
Would it be as good as the 20"?

The AL2051W would be better than any 22". The 22" isn't much of a step up from your iBook TN.

The sceaming deal on the NEC 20WMGX2 is over on Sept 1st. It's not in the photo editing section either, though in the gaming section it says
For photo editing or DTP, use DV Mode Standard and Advanced DVM Off settings only.
I would need to connect with the VGA Adaptor not DVI, would this work for me?
Does this mean it would be OK for Adobe 1998?

It's in the photo editing section but not for print editing. Honestly I have no idea how good the iBook's VGA output is but the NEC's VGA input is great.

The only screen in the print editing section that attracts is the Samsung SyncMaster 971P
which is available at Circuitcity for $224.96 in Black right now. They don't have the white.
Is it calibratable on my Mac as it is only adjustable with it's own software which doesn't seem to work well acording to reviews one has to rely on the presets which are good, but accurate?

There is Samsung MagicTune for Mac which should work and the monitor uses a standard monitor control protocol.

Just wondering if it's worth spending more for wider gamut. What gamut am I seeing now on my iBook so I can compare.

Thank for any help.

I don't know what gamut the iBook is, sorry. See if you can find the panel it uses. Whatever the case, the contrast and color accuracy of the Acer AL2051W would be better. And, the accuracy of the NEC 20WMGX2 is significantly better yet. The 20WMGX2 is highly recommended.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Majed
One last question.
what about LG l246wp? is it better than Dell 2407WFP-HC ?
many people recommended it!.

The LG is better for response time but it's a normal gamut monitor. I would recommend the BenQ FP241W (also normal gamut) personally.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Montius
I just tested out UT2k4, and there was definitely some noticeable ghosting. If I'm not paying attention/focusing on it, it almost gives the feeling of bloom, a kind of surreal brightness with darkened edges. But standing in front of a pillar and strafing back and forth there is an obvious blackish trail of the object, almost like a dark highlight.
I also noticed ghosting while moving my mouse around quickly on top of a black image/background (not the mouse trail, but a very faint, quick to fade, continuous mouse trail, almost a yellow gray color).

As far as input lag goes, I didn't notice any. I don't play twitch shooters (UT, Quake 3) competitively or on a regular basis, but I've had enough play time to know that it's nothing I would consider detrimental. I have tested out with calibration but I'm going to try out Bernard's settings, and try some of my own.

How is Dell's QA? I wonder if my experiences are shared by all others. The lower left portion of the screen (probably an 1/8 of overall screen real estate) has a very obvious pink hue to it. There is essentially no backlight bleeding.

Dell uses B-grade panels so often QA-related issues are prevalent. Those such as uniformity issues (backlight bleeding), banding, and overdrive artifacts are very common in the Dells. Just by what I've seen I would expect the new rev to be shipping by a month and a half from now.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: frythecpuofbender
Can someone explain to me the differences in performance/IQ when using graphics card /LCD for scaling? It seems I have native scaling with my LG226WA or I can activate Nvidia control panel scaling and then my 8800GTS 640MB does the resolution scaling? Is there a performance loss when the graphics card has to scale? Does it look better? Anyone with experience?
I'm playing R6:Vegas right now in 1440x900 on my 1680x1050 and besides some small text bluring it looks very good.

I usually like the monitor's scaling better but this is totally subjective.

It is done on a separate part of the graphics card than "gaming" so no, it doesn't reduce performance as far as I can tell. Read the scaling section of the OP for more info.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: stylesjl
Well glad I could put this out there so potential buyers know. Its def very severe, you don't have to be in a game to see this. I'm not sure how people overlook this. I think its just a matter of time before you see it. Eventually you'll goto a website or have a wallpaper with the certain colors that cause this. Once you see your cursor multiply by 10 then you'll know. =)

I'm very disapointed with Dell at this point. Customer service hasn't gone to well, ontop of this major problem after so many 2407 revisions. I just fail to see how QA could pass a monitor along like this.


Hows the NEC 20WMGX2 working out for you? I might take a look at that.

I have very few complaints with the 20WMGX2 (I published a review ages ago in the old thread). Colors are vibrant (esp. after calibration), black level is great, and I like the glossy screen. It has an AS-IPS panel with wide viewing angles and sharp contrast. The only thing I dislike about it is slight banding in a few cases like 3D modeling/cube shading but it rarely occurs in media.

 

[Majed]

Originally posted by: xtknight

The LG is better for response time but it's a normal gamut monitor. I would recommend the BenQ FP241W (also normal gamut) personally.

thanks xtknight for yout comment.
i have one question.
you've recommended this BenQ FP241W.. is it the same like BenQ FP241Wz?
i think it's the same but i need to be sure.

 

[Nnyan]

So after much testing it looks the the issues I have with LCD dizzyness as just a matter of adjusting to them (and making a few adjustments thanks for the tips xtknight!). I've also found that I prefer the glossy screens.

So now I'm down to three choices, the 20WMGX2, the Acer AL2051W and the Soyo 24. I'm mostly gaming and coding and I just can't decide. I'm going to go look at the Soyo in OM tonight since they have one hooked up to a PC with a few games on it maybe that will help.