[Retired] The LCD Thread

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DoctorM

Member
Jan 31, 2001
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xtknight, I disagree. I've worked with an LCD panel before and there is indeed a flicker brought on by the refresh just like on CRTs.

Even fluorescent light bulbs have a strobing I can see.

Unless they backlight with fluorescent bulbs that are causing the problem, I guess I've got to stick with CRT or await the 85hz lcd,
 

Nnyan

Senior member
May 30, 2003
239
1
76
@DoctorM

I'm sure you're seeing something but it's not the same as the refresh rate on a CRT. I myself am very sensitive to low refresh rates on CRT's and I've done a lot of research on the matter.

"LCD-type monitors can often go even lower [than CRT refresh rates] and still remain flicker-free." That's because the pixels in a standard color LCD are self-illuminating; they don't have to be "painted" serially by an electron gun, and they don't fade out if not repainted regularly. They are turned on by a signal from the video card, and stay on until another signal arrives telling them to turn off or change; or until power is removed. Because if this, many LCD's have default refresh rates of 60Hz, and still show no flicker at all.

However, this means that whatever image is on screen isn't getting updated that often. There may be no flicker, but in video and other rapid-motion images, you may see smearing, blurring, and loss of detail in the moving part"

If you are getting eye strain/pain more then likely the brightness/contrast of the LCD is the culprit. Most LCD come with default settings that are way too high. I pretty much was experiencing the same thing on all the LCD's I've tested and this goes away once I adjusted the B/C settings. It still does take a day or two for my eyes to adjust from a CRT to an LCD but there is no major discomfort.

 

DoctorM

Member
Jan 31, 2001
180
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Hmmm. Interesting. I don't think it was the brightness because I always crank that down.
Maybe it IS the backlighting instead.
 

Therk

Senior member
Jul 15, 2005
261
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Anyone have any experience/know much about the Viewsonic VA2026W and VA2226W? I'm considering buying one.
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
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71
Originally posted by: MKF
Ok, Im going to pull the n00b thing and ask.

I shopped around and looked at all the 24" out there that wernt TN And set myself on the Dell 2407 HC I was planning to buy this from Costco since they have a great return deal and it would allow me to avoid Dell's Customer support, for a period of time. Unfortunetly when I was ready to buy they were sold out.
Now Im stuck with Dell's support. But tonight I found the Gateway FPD2485w is a s-pva as well, and quite a bit cheaper. 499$ -50$ and they have a deal on the sound bar free after rebate vs dell's 730$ shipped. (local best buy isnt supporting the low priced gateways)

Question is with all the issues with BOTH units which is the better buy?
2407 HC Dell has the breaking power btn odd white halo ghosting things.
FPD2485w Gateway has the inverted ghosting and spf requred brightness.

I believe the 2407WFP-HC is a better deal. The Gateway has more color tracking issues.

I am primarly using this for 3d work and Graphic arts. I do game but nothing to intense. (well nothing where 1ms will make a visual diffrence) The TN 24" Acer I had was horrible in the VP and with visual artifacts I will assume were due to the 6bit nature of the panel. Blurry corners strange morie effects that wiggled etc.

My current setup consists of a aging Samsung 204t (getting dark stripes from backlight aging) And a old crusty dimming 20something SUN crt
The Samsung is ips so I am used to consistant colors and things not changing hue while I breathe.

Wow..poor you. I think the 2407WFP-HC will be the least of your worries, actually.

So in the end Im stuck 2 flawed monitors and a price diffrence of about 220$ (511 vs 730)
Is it pretty much get which ever has a better casing? or add ons like Card readers etc?

Any help and opinions would be appreciated.
MKF-

2407WFP-HC since I don't believe the ghosting issue is that bad. And you get a wide gamut monitor, tons of inputs/flexibility, and a true 8-bit S-PVA panel for all your troubles. I have a VA panel w/ ghosting problems (VP930b) and really it's not that bad even during games.
 

TempletonPeck

Member
Nov 9, 2007
99
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I've tried 4 different TN panels and decided I don't like any of them. 6 bit to 8 bit colour conversions with FRC and/or dithering, bad screen artifacts with some, bad viewing angles, backlight bleed, and general poor manufacturing quality have turned me off.

I'm just gonna wait for a price drop on an IPS or VA LCD down the road.
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
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71
Originally posted by: DoctorM
xtknight, I disagree. I've worked with an LCD panel before and there is indeed a flicker brought on by the refresh just like on CRTs.

Even fluorescent light bulbs have a strobing I can see.

Unless they backlight with fluorescent bulbs that are causing the problem, I guess I've got to stick with CRT or await the 85hz lcd,

Eyes like yours are a blessing and a curse I guess. I don't know how to solve your problem, but I don't believe backlights flicker when they are at 100% brightness. The problem is, finding an LCD that can actually handle 100% brightness properly without screwing up gamma...

I am pretty certain it is not a "refresh rate" of any sort. It is due to the PWM (pulse width modulation) of the backlight. Some LCDs have a PWM faster than others, and X-Bit Labs tends to list the backlight PWM rate a lot in their reviews (they are the only ones who do this).
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
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Originally posted by: Trean
Okay thanks for all the help xtknight. I have a quick inquiry too. I noticed you stated the HP will most likely be the better monitor for me, so I think I will do some in person research to test out the viewing angles and stuff on the gateway. Unfortunately the gateway does not seem to be on display anywhere according to a previously linked thread, even though they have it in stock. This may change by the time I get my butt to the store; but I was wondering if all TN panels had the same response to viewing angle changes as well as other panels. I mean if I go to the store and I look at another TN panel monitor from viewing distance X and angle Y will its image distort in a similar way to the new gateway that has hit the market? (this question goes for the HP or even just other panel types in general)

Again thanks for all the help.

TNs of the same size tend to exhibit the same characteristics, or very close to it. Manufacturers can put whatever film they want on their TNs but I'm pretty sure that all the manufacturers have been using much the same things lately. In short, there's little to no difference between modern TN displays with viewing angle. With contrast, response time, input lag, and gamma, there can be differences.

This is about as different as TNs get: link

Here's a 24" TN vs. 22" TN: link

There's actually a little difference there (24" vs 22" TN). The 24" looks like it has a lower viewing angle to me. The bigger size is harder on TNs.

Originally posted by: graywulf
thanks xt. I think I will get the samsung. the panel lottery should not affect input lag or response time, correct? only colors, contrast etc.?

The panel lottery can affect response time but probably not input lag. Some have gotten response time artifacts with the 'alternate' 206BW and 226BW panels. Contrast is not affected drastically, but color tuning can be. Many CMO 226BWs have a bluish cast to them. There are color profiles for the Samsung, AUO, and CMO panels though. I don't know about the CPT panel but I think it's rare at least in the 22-incher.

In most cases, most people will be happy with the 206BW and 226BW, whatever panel they may end up with.

To be perfectly honest with you though, if you're in a position where returning the LCD is not easy then I would steer clear of panel-lottery monitors like the 206BW and 226BW. It's probably something I should list in my OP.
 

Nnyan

Senior member
May 30, 2003
239
1
76
OK so I got my Spyder2 Express a day early but I wasn't able to play with it with all the getting ready for thanksgiving. So I ran it for the first time on the 2232GW and it did make a bunch of changes but it did not change the brightness/contrast (instructions indicate to reset these to defaults 100/75). Is this normal since the default B/C is just way too bright for me. By the way I checked this after the reboot and it did indicate that the profile was successfully loaded.
 

MKF

Junior Member
Nov 23, 2007
4
0
0
Originally posted by: xtknight
2407WFP-HC since I don't believe the ghosting issue is that bad. And you get a wide gamut monitor, tons of inputs/flexibility, and a true 8-bit S-PVA panel for all your troubles. I have a VA panel w/ ghosting problems (VP930b) and really it's not that bad even during games.

So, does this mean the Gateway is no longer a 8bit S-pva?
 

absj

Member
Jul 7, 2005
43
0
0
Hey guys, I got the Soyo 24 inch, but when I am looking at certain movies (The discovers (imax) @ http://www.microsoft.com/windo...o/contentshowcase.aspx ), I notice color banding in certain scenes (ie. sunset). From what i've read, this monitor should not perform this way, could this be a video card issue?

Also when I do a gradient tests, i notice faint lines.

Please advise! Thanks...
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
Originally posted by: MKF
Originally posted by: xtknight
2407WFP-HC since I don't believe the ghosting issue is that bad. And you get a wide gamut monitor, tons of inputs/flexibility, and a true 8-bit S-PVA panel for all your troubles. I have a VA panel w/ ghosting problems (VP930b) and really it's not that bad even during games.

So, does this mean the Gateway is no longer a 8bit S-pva?

No, the Gateway is still an 8-bit S-PVA you just don't get great color tracking performance with its implementation of the panel.

http://www.extremetech.com/art.../0,1697,2078862,00.asp

I'm not really sure how the HC performs but it is wide gamut at least, and it probably has better color tracking.
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
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71
Some [belated] news:

Firefox "Gran Paradiso" 3.0a7 (Aug 2007) has ICC/color management support (multiplatform).

http://mozillalinks.org/wp/200...rt-added-to-firefox-3/
http://www.beltzner.ca/mike/ar...u_like_the_pretty.html

Enable thru about:config "gfx.color_management.enabled"="true" and restart.

There is also a gfx.color_management.display_profile option, but I think if you have already applied the profile your desktop, this would be redundant and offset the colors twice as much as they need to be.
 

DoctorM

Member
Jan 31, 2001
180
0
0
Ok, let me get my head around what I should be looking for.
For gaming I need speed. I've heard that Widescreens don't tend to be as good as 4x3's but reading here that doesn't sound like it's true.

I'll obviously have to check for PWM numbers if I can.

Awhile back (about a year ago) I had a fiasco of LCD shopping that had me returning 3-4 monitors (mostly NEC 90gx2 and one LG).
My problems included seeing banding/dithering in 6-bit+frc panels, blacks that looked silvery, light bleeding (hot spots noticeable when viewing dark stuff), and inconsistent brightness from top to bottom of the screen.

I don't know how much of that is inherent to LCDs but I'd like to minimize the craptacularness if possible.

Anyway, like I said before I do video editing as well as gaming so color, black levels and quality is just as important as speed.

Can anyone give me a general direction to start looking?

I'm guessing TN panels are out (because of colors) but what is the difference between *VA and S-IPS?

Sorry to be such a pain. Really did it have to be LCDs that replaced CRTs?
It's like the idea that mp3s have replaced CDs. Sure it's newer tech but it doesn't make it better.
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
Originally posted by: Nnyan
OK so I got my Spyder2 Express a day early but I wasn't able to play with it with all the getting ready for thanksgiving. So I ran it for the first time on the 2232GW and it did make a bunch of changes but it did not change the brightness/contrast (instructions indicate to reset these to defaults 100/75). Is this normal since the default B/C is just way too bright for me. By the way I checked this after the reboot and it did indicate that the profile was successfully loaded.

Well I don't know how the Spyder2 works but it would seem to me there'd be options to adjust brightness/contrast.

See here: http://www.northlight-images.c...ws/spyder2express.html

Apparently color temp/gamma targets, RGB controls are fixed (but probably not if you use third-party software that also supports the Spyder2). But again you should be able to adjust brightness/contrast with Spyder2Express (and incl. software) and end up with something very good.

Software like ColorHCFR may let you exploit the Spyder2Express fully: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=737550

I think the Spyder2 series all have the same colorimeter HW, just different software.

You can get about 90% as good of a calibration just by adjusting brightness/contrast and letting Spyder2 profile your monitor, as long as your monitor's RGB controls aren't all wacky. I recommend setting R=G=B in the monitor controls (so they're all equal), and then let Spyder2 profile it.

It may take a few tries before you really get the hang of it. Maybe a little background on what it's actually doing will benefit you.

- It wants to get black as dark as possible
- It wants white to be a certain brightness (usually 120 nits)
- It wants to set white to a certain color temperature (like 6500K daylight)
- It wants to adjust the gamma curve to match sRGB ("the" color standard), or the exponent 2.2 as a close approximate to this standard
--- This gamma correction controls how much brighter the current color tone (n) gets than the previous tone (n-1)
- It wants to do all this without sacrificing gamut (the range of colors) and bit depth (the number of colors) too much

Gamut is not something you can expand. It is defined by the LCD device and its backlight. The same goes for bit depth. The calibration software however has to sacrifice both of these a little to make you achieve only the most accurate colors.

It is harder to calibrate consumer LCDs because they have little devices inside (lookup tables) that try and solve the problem on their own. When they fail, you have to compensate for their failures and by doing this you already lose a little color bit depth, or resolution. Don't confuse color resolution with screen resolution (e.g. 1280x1024)... All I mean by resolution is the strict definition of it in the dictionary. Ultimately, the compensation is provided by the video card's secondary lookup table.

Professional LCDs include lookup tables that can be completely modified, so it is simpler to get a full calibration out of them and you don't have to touch the video card's lookup table.

Don't worry though, you can still get awesome performance out of consumer LCDs with good video card calibration and adjusting what you can of the consumer monitor's lookup table (primitive R, G, B sliders).
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
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71
Originally posted by: Therk
Anyone have any experience/know much about the Viewsonic VA2026W and VA2226W? I'm considering buying one.

Not much myself...

Looks like high-contrast CMO or AUO TN panels, probably without response time acceleration tech.

The VA2226W is actually a 21.6" like the Samsung 216BW.

They do have a pretty cool design. I haven't seen *real* pro reviews of either, though. I'm thinking they can't be too bad but that's just a first impression.

This review seems favorable: http://www.pcper.com/article.p...=467&type=expert&pid=4

But there's no response time or deltaE94 (color accuracy) numbers or anything.
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
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71
Originally posted by: absj
Hey guys, I got the Soyo 24 inch, but when I am looking at certain movies (The discovers (imax) @ http://www.microsoft.com/windo...o/contentshowcase.aspx ), I notice color banding in certain scenes (ie. sunset). From what i've read, this monitor should not perform this way, could this be a video card issue?

Also when I do a gradient tests, i notice faint lines.

Please advise! Thanks...

Make sure you've reset all video card/driver color settings/adjustments?
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
Originally posted by: DoctorM
Ok, let me get my head around what I should be looking for.
For gaming I need speed. I've heard that Widescreens don't tend to be as good as 4x3's but reading here that doesn't sound like it's true.

I'll obviously have to check for PWM numbers if I can.

Awhile back (about a year ago) I had a fiasco of LCD shopping that had me returning 3-4 monitors (mostly NEC 90gx2 and one LG).
My problems included seeing banding/dithering in 6-bit+frc panels, blacks that looked silvery, light bleeding (hot spots noticeable when viewing dark stuff), and inconsistent brightness from top to bottom of the screen.

I don't know how much of that is inherent to LCDs but I'd like to minimize the craptacularness if possible.

Anyway, like I said before I do video editing as well as gaming so color, black levels and quality is just as important as speed.

Can anyone give me a general direction to start looking?

I'm guessing TN panels are out (because of colors) but what is the difference between *VA and S-IPS?

Sorry to be such a pain. Really did it have to be LCDs that replaced CRTs?
It's like the idea that mp3s have replaced CDs. Sure it's newer tech but it doesn't make it better.

Well you get what you pay for. You won't have many of those problems with the NEC 20WMGX2 or Samsung 215TW. Even if you do have slight bleeding problems or whatever, they are so good in other ways I doubt you will care.

(Note the NEC 20WMGX2 could have bleeding for a week because of panel pressure, but most of it will go away. That's certainly not an excuse to not try this LCD.)

Sometimes you just have to find the right LCD. So far, you've only tried LCDs where I'd expect those problems to occur. I don't expect them to occur with higher-end LCDs like the NEC 20WMGX2/Samsung 215TW. Unfortunately with the 215TW you might get input lag but it doesn't affect everyone, or maybe not even every unit of that model.

Widescreen/standard aspect has nothing to do with how good quality the LCD is. In fact, many inroads have been made in widescreen LCDs simply because of demand. Standard aspect LCDs are practically in recession these days.

The OP describes VA vs IPS. VA can have color shift in viewing angles but IPS has virtually none of this.

I think you should try the NEC 20WMGX2 (glossy S-IPS) next. Not even everyone likes the NEC though. It's always possible you'd like the Samsung 215TW (matte S-PVA) more. I'm confident there's some LCD out there for you...

Who knows, maybe VA or IPS panels won't give you that weird eye discomfort. They certainly can have more neutral whites than TNs.

I can already tell you the NEC 20WMGX2 is significantly different from even the NEC 90GX2. They aren't even close when it comes to performance. The 20WMGX2 is much closer to a CRT. That doesn't mean it's as good as a CRT in all aspects either, but it is certainly better in some aspects like brightness and clarity. Plus the glossy panel may be therapeutic to your eyes. This LCD's white is also quite dim like a CRT and not harsh.

The first time I looked at pictures on this LCD, its black looked like pure freshly-spilled black ink. (Of course you can't count on this when the whole LCD is showing a large dark image, but elements of brighter images look very contrasty.)
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
Originally posted by: DoctorM
I think the NEC 20WMGX2 was a highly recommended display almost a year ago. It's still that good?

Yes. I can't honestly name a better display overall..

There's the Dell 3007WFP-HC which is S-IPS/wide gamut which may potentially be better color wise, but it probably isn't quite up to the NEC's speed when it comes to response time. And it has only a matte coating.
 

redlinez33

Senior member
Nov 11, 2007
278
0
0
Well I am about 99% sure I will be getting the NEC, but I was wondering is there any 22" monitors that are even worth looking at for gaming? I know all (i believe) 22" monitors are TN, and I know they are 6bit, but after looking at a 22" next to a 20" the size does really show. Viewing angles arent important to me, but colors, black levels, and response time are. So are there any 22" monitors that would be considered good (close to the NEC overall)???

Thanks for all your help so far!
 

DoctorM

Member
Jan 31, 2001
180
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0
Wow, just took a look at New Egg's price on the NEC 20WMGX2.
Amazing. A year ago they wouldn't let you read the specs off the box for that price.

Anyone know if Costco carries these (not that I can imagine them touching New Egg's current price).

Speaking of, anyone know New Eggs policy for returns, dead pixels, etc?


Edit:
I find it interesting that as well regarded as the 215tw is on other sites, you don't recommend it in any category in the first post.
 
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