[Retired] The LCD Thread

[redlinez33]

I read somewhere about a blue tint on the w2408 that was unfixable. Was that your post before an edit? If so, did you end up fixing it?

Ya that was my post before the edit, I think i fixed it to an acceptable level (will test more tonight). The samsung had the same problem but I corrected it (except in DARK images there was always a slight blue tint, which I think is just a problem with TNs in general).... I am not saying I would recommend it over the other panels, but it should be in there with it..... Gateway seems to be having quality controls issues, and its $50 more (some people dont need the extra inputs, so why pay the extra $50?). Samsung is a good barebones monitor, and if you can buy it for $400 it might be the better value, but I still think the HP should be atleast a recommendation for gaming.

What I dont get about extremetechs review is the HP has the EXACT same software as the gateway (just a different name) and they gave it a PRO for gateway and didnt even mention it i dont believe for the HP. I guess its easy to calibrate the gateway out of the box (it comes standard with better factory settings), but you can correct most of the problems people see with the HP with the software it comes with... I just find it weird that two respectable places (prad and extremetech) can come out with such different experiences. Maybe extremetech got a defective panel? Maybe there was some other issues. I dont believe prad has ever given a rating of "VERY GOOD" to a TN panel before, until the 2408H, so it makes me wonder....

Cnet AU rated the 2408 with a 7.8 or so, which is actually above average for a TN panel LCD...

 

[SCCA Racer X]

Originally posted by: xtknight
( by the way, Westinghouse L2410NM is actually a TN (viewing angle was falsely represented by manufacturer). So you should probably remove it from the "non TN" list )

xtknight:

I have recently viewed the Westinghouse L2410NM at several different Best Buys, and none of them were TN panels. Maybe, like the Acer X241WSD, they came with a TN in an earlier version, and switched to a VA panel without changing the model number.

I spent a fair bit of time playing with both of those monitors, so I may as well share my subjective impressions of them.

I was able to get a more vivid picture on the Westinghouse than on the Acer. They were side-by-side in this case.

The buttons on the Westinghouse are a pain in the @ss to use. Non-intuitive layout, not labeled in any readable way, and you have to press and hold one of the buttons to get into the menus. Before I read that somewhere, I couldn't figure out how to get into the menus at all.

The Acer's buttons are more accessible and well labeled, but ergonomics are marred by the unfortunate placement of the power button in the center of the row of buttons, between the menu and scroll buttons. This means you'll be hitting the power button when you meant to scroll through the menus or adjust a setting.

I prefer the black bezel and aesthetic style of the Westinghouse over the busy silver bezel on the Acer.

A strong point in favor of Acer is their 3 year warranty vs. 1 year for Westinghouse.

Of these two, I'd prefer to have the Westinghouse on my desk. But when it came time to part with real money, I bought the $300 24" Soyo from OfficeMax. I bought it to use at work, to replace a 17" CRT.

Xtknight, thanks for your response to my first post. You said my aversion to VA panels may be overblown, and if not, the only alternative is to save up for an IPS. I've always been sensitive to viewing angle anomalies, and avoided buying an LCD until the Soyo. When the Acer X241WSD went on sale for the same price as the Soyo, I tried really hard to like it enough to replace my 21" Panasonic CRT for my home system. But I just couldn't do it. As I said before, my ideal is to find a 24" (or more!) IPS which costs less than 1% of my gross annual income. :shocked: The price point of the NEC MultiSync LCD2490WUXi would only be justifiable if I could generate income with it, so it seems I will have to be realistic and compromise if I am buying a monitor in the near future. I am considering the HP LP2065 as the only affordable IPS panel out there. Here are my reservations: I haven't seen one in person, and I am afraid that 1600x1200 on a 20" monitor makes a dot pitch too fine for legible text. That's my experience when I run that resolution on my CRT, which has roughly the same viewable screen size. I am happy with the dot pitch of a 24" monitor. Plus, I'd have to order online and accept the risk of panel lottery and/or defective return shipping cost and downtime. Its almost enough to send me back to OfficeMax for a second Soyo to tide me over until the market for 24" IPS panels improves! But then I look at that viewing angle/color/detail shift, and I know that this can never be my primary monitor.

I am still searching for a better choice...

You might wonder why I don't get another CRT. My primary reason is I have a couple of audiophile speakers next to the monitor, and the magnetic fields mess up the picture unless I align everything at funky angles. Its funny when someone comes over and tries to straighten things out. I'm usually the one who annoys people by doing that! :roll: Shielded speakers of this quality would cost more than two monitors. Second, my desk is built-in and the CRT is too deep. I didn't have those problems in the past, but I've recently moved.

 

[ChaoZ]

What do you mean by casing? Bezel/product measurements should include the dimensions of the whole device. Typically there are measurements including stand and without stand.

The only width measurement that gives the width of the viewable screen only is the Active Area measurement.

The iMac 24" (H-IPS) is among the best of LCDs and the E207WFP won't be close to that. It should still be sharp and bright though since it's an LCD.

I don't know much about the E207WFP but there aren't many 20" TNs I'd recommend. Maybe the LG L204WT. But there are better 22" choices for good prices/values. For example check the Multimedia list in the OP. The Acer AL2216Wbd is a great economical choice. Available for $220 USD at Newegg: http://www.newegg.com/Product/...24009094&Tpk=AL2216Wbd

Almost guaranteed to give you better quality than the $214 E207WFP.

So is the LG L204WT the best for the 20" monitors?

Edit: So I *might* be able to fit a 22" inch.

 

[redlinez33]

w2007 is probably the best 20" TN, has a reflective screen and its expensive though.

 

[starcycle]

wow, great thread. big kudos to xtknight for putting this together and keeping it going. I really picked up a lot here. :thumbsup:

I'm coming from a 17" PVA samsung 172t, and needed an upgrade. It's been a few years since I even looked at LCDs, and I was a little shocked to see the sorry state the industry is in. Where are all the the low cost VA/IPS panels you'd expect to see by now? It seems they're actually going in the opposite direction and phasing out all the VAs and IPS in favor of TN on most of these monitors.

Anyway, I started looking yesterday, read about a zillion web and forum pages, and narrowed it down to a couple main choices. The Samsungs looked pretty good, 206BW (I'm going for 20"), but the panel lottery is just totally ridiculous. Are these manufacturers serious? I'm surprised there's not more consumer rebellion and boycott with that kind of nonsense going on. Too bad, too, because the 215TW was my strong first choice, but after reading about the panel scams, I decided I just will not buy from samsung anymore, or Dell for that matter, until they stop putting out different products under the same name. That's totally unethical, imo.

The old acer 2051w looked really good for what I wanted (not a gamer, just web, office, text, movies, etc.), though I'm not sure how a glossy screen would have worked in my office room, with strong light coming in from the slider. then I found out it was a moot point anyway b/c it was discontinued, which is what I mean by the direction LCDs are going. Why discontinue that, a decent VA panel, with no comparable replacement? It's insane. HP had a similar glossy model, w2007, but it's TN, and by this time I had decided I was just not going to spend more than $200-225 for a TN monitor. It's ridiculous.

Finally I settled on the LG L204WT, found it on newegg for a little over 200, and ordered that today. I couldn't believe I was buying a few year-old technology as one of the strongest choices still today, but I guess that's the way things are going. It's just unreal: don't people want quality anymore, or is "gaming" all they care about? Where are all the lower cost options for non-gamers who want high image quality non-TN without spending a fortune, like the 2051w?

I could be wrong, but it seems to me like there's way too much emphasis put on response time (to dazzle the average consumer who doesn't know any better, I guess) to the detriment of other important factors. I think my samsung is like 25-freaking-ms (!!) and it looks fine. I watch DVDs and ripped video on it all the time without a problem. And notice how one of the most important bits of information when buying an LCD -- what kind of panel it is -- is the one thing manufacturers never list? You just kind of have to guess based on viewing angle, response time, searching forums, etc. What's that about? :roll:

well that's my rant. I guess the LG will tide me over for now - hope it's not too much of a downgrade from my 172t. If not I'll just bite the bullet and shell out for a good IPS or *VA again. But I was really surprised at what (to me) seemed like the sorry state of LCDs out there. It seems like things should be more advanced by now than having 7 zillion crappy TN panels and relatively fewer choices for *VA or even IPS. well, maybe in a few more years.

 

[DoctorM]

For those following along at home, because of my stuck pixels I'm exchanging my VX2435wm again.
Although I thought there was a communications breakdown, when I called TechOnWeb, they were pleasant and told me the RMA was already being processed from my Friday email.
I asked about a paid return shipping label and she put in a request (which was subsequently denied... but it doesn't hurt to ask).

So another cross-ship... lets hope 3rd time is a charm (mind you the first was fine... but I didn't know that).

The only sour note: I was informed that the people higher up she spoke with were 'unhappy' with another exchange and that the next problem I have will have to be a return only.

Fingers crossed...

 

[Gunlance]

Good rant starcycle.

I would say it's just good business for these company's. People started to buy TN because of response times, economics worked it's magic having the prices go down and then there was the huge demand. With the demand I am sure came the terrible panel lottery situation, I am sure Dell and Samsung just were making that kind of decision to meet demand and increase profit. The demand is still there so they continue to push TN's out the factory.

A lot of the people buying just don't know, or have anything real to compare monitors to. Side by side if people saw the TN vs the the others panels. Just wow. Then people would start complaining. But it is not like you are going to see that in stores. I would compare this to the ear buds people have for an MP3 players. Everyone spending that $300 on the ipod and using the cheap packaged ear buds. Ignorance is bliss.

As for me, I thought I knew what I was looking for I had no idea the specifications were faked, and I thought that was all that mattered. Look for the best MS, Contrast, and Size >_<" boy was I wrong...a lot more to choosing the right monitor than picking parts for your PC to play crysis!

I would agree it is a sad state, and I don't things will turn around for awhile. There are not that many people buying monitors that are in the "know", and major hardware review sites and pc magazines barely review monitors or do a good job at it for the most part. I was thinking about purchasing a laptop in the coming months (never owned one). I doubt there is even a choice for the panel technology in them haha, at least we still have some choice albeit expensive ones for the desktop computer still.

As a side note,

Thanks xtknight for everything. The 215TW is the winner and having to settle on some lag is fine. A lot less to "settle" on than with my current monitor. Hopefully it will still be for sale by the end of next week. If not...oh well..I better just start saving my pennies for a 24" thats just as good.

I think it's better than the dell 2007WFP. Versus the NEC though, damn close. I would be happy with either or. The reality is though I can actually get the samsung! And in black! The pros and cons with the little features between the two are were making me bounce back and forth.

I just have one last question. When reviews talk about "sparkle" what is that? I think I know what that is, as I tried to explain it when I was talking about the pulsating pixels of black on that picture of Saturn or in movies I called it "noise" (like high-ISO digital picture)....which is the best thing I could compare it too in my mind.

Reviews on the samsung 215TW say it was noticeable.

 

[redlinez33]

In the last few days I have tested and messed with three different monitors, the Samsung 245BW, Gateway FHD2400, and HP W2408H. Each monitor has its own weakness and strengths, and I will mention the ones that I found here. This is just a simple PROS and CONS list, to make it easier for me. When testing I did not have a color meter to change things around, which is fine, because most people don't have one. I also didnt have that much experience with the Gateway before I returned it, and that is because of the VERY bad backlight bleeding. Also, each monitor had fast enough response time in gaming, so I wont mention that here. The PROS and CONS are only comparing each monitor, it does not mean they are AMAZING compared to other higher quality monitors, like a VA or IPS. BTW i think the gateway uses the same panel as the samsung.... Jujst as guess though


SAMSUNG 245BW

PROS

• Default Color Accuracy (when set to TEXT or INTERNET MODE).
  Least amount of backlight bleeding
  NON-GLOSSY panel
  PRICE ($400 at Costco)
  Warranty (3 years)

CONS

• 
  Not as VIBRANT as the other monitors
  Doesn't swivel
  Average text quality when not running in native resolution

GATEWAY FHD2400

PROS

• Vibrant colors
  Default Color Accuracy
  Tons of inputs (HDMI, DVI, VGA, Component, Composite)
  ON screen menu is awesome
  Swivel
  Great text quality when not running in native resolution

CONS

• Games at non native resolution looked TO sharp when using built in scalar.
  Only a 1 year warranty
  Glossy panel (but this adds A PRO so it is a matter of choice)
  HORRIBLE backlight bleeding that kept getting worse with time (only took 24hours to see a difference), and was actually noticeable when playing games

HP W2408H

PROS

• Vibrant colors
  Swivel
  Great text quality when not running in native resolution

CONS

• Only a 1 year warranty
  Glossy panel (but this adds to a PRO so it is a matter of choice)
  Bad color accuracy
  I don't know the word for this, but I think its called banding, in games where you looked at the sky or there was fog or smoke, it would show banding worse than the other monitors.

If I think of any more PROS or CONS for each monitor I will edit this post. While in earlier posts I was praising the HP, I really got to test it tonight some more. I knew it had a blue tint to it and I could get close to correcting it and having it at acceptable levels, but what I didn't know is when I corrected it I started to notice a green tint to certain things, especially FOG (sandstorm map in UT3). I tried to correct this but then things just turned red on me (literally). I spent hours trying to fix it, and I just cant without a calibrator. I am not sure if calibration software could fix it. Then I noticed that the banding of certain things (like the sandstorm in the map sandstorm (creative eh?) in UT3 and the sky in Crysis) was much worse on the HP W2408H than the other monitors.


While I think all three monitors are at least DECENT, and each would be good enough for games, only one is worth the purchase if you don't have a calibrator. The winner for me atleast is.................................






















Samsung 245BW

It has least amount of problems, and the lowest price with the best warranty. The only thing I wish the Samsung did better was text in non native resolutions.

 

[Mallomar]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Mallomar
Oh, now I see it. Before I had only seen the other SV Kit that was only for an LED monitor. I should have looked further. Thanks for the links.

One more question, since I don't know anything about colorimeters or calibration software -- if I buy an SV model of the 2690 (or buy the SV kit from NEC), since it will include the NEC version of the software, doesn't this mean I wouldn't be able to use that software with a different brand of LCD?

The NEC software supports only a certain few models of colorimeters. But Eye One Match is freely available off Gretag-Macbeth's site and I think it should support your colorimeter if you get the SV kit. I don't know though. The only way I know for sure is to order the Eye One Display 2 independently from NEC and get the SV software only.

If so, would I be able to buy colorimeter software (for a non-NEC LCD) separately, or is it only sold with colorimeters? I checked the Gretag site, but it was unclear -- there was a link for "software downloads" but you have to register and set up an account, so I couldn't find out if there was a separate charge for software if you already have the colorimeter.

See here (i1 Match software): http://www.xrite.com/product_o...?Action=support&ID=788

I am planning to order the 2690 SV by tomorrow at the latest. Since nobody has it in stock, I guess I'll just order it from the cheapest vendor, sit back, and wait for it. Right now I am using an LG L226WTQ that my husband ran out and bought yesterday when my Mits CRT croaked. The color on the LG is pretty awful (for example, everything that's supposed to be gray looks baby blue) -- I need to install its "forte Manager" and see if I can adjust it. Maybe it's normal for the colors to be out of whack right out of the box?

Yeah it's probably more normal than not for TNs.

UPDATE: I've decided to just go ahead and get the 2690 (non-SV) model, so I can have it by next week. I'll deal with the colorimeter issue separately, since it's not absolutely essential that I have it in my hands at the same time that I get the monitor.

One more really important question -- do I need to also buy a cable so I can hook up the monitor to my digital video input? I can't see anything on the NEC site about whether or not the monitor comes with a digital cable, but I'm guessing it doesn't. If not, what type of cable do I need to buy?

TIA,

Mallomar

My 2690 came with a digital cable and if I recall, also an analog one.

Please help me, Obi-xtnight! You're my only hope!

My 2690 arrived today, and the display looks just awful. My guess is that it just needs to be adjusted, but I can't figure out how to do it. I'm technologically challenged. The desktop background has vertical pinstripes, and the text (which should be black, or at least gray!) is different colors -- mostly green and purple (probably red and blue pixels). Looks like it's out of convergence, if that's the right term.

First, I want to make sure we've got it cabled correctly. We used the DVI-D cable. My husband claims it's plugged into the DVI-D connector on the monitor, and I think he's right .

I installed Naviset, hoping it might be easier to use than the OSM. But I can't figure it out -- there are lots of test patterns, but I don't see how to adjust anything other than brightness, contrast, etc. I don't see how to fix the alignment or convergence or whatever it is.

And the ghosting is terrible -- I can't believe this is normal for a NEC 2690! It's a hundred, no, a million times worse than on my husband's cheap LG (or the really cheap Princeton that preceded it). It's so bad that it's actually difficult to read text. And it also made it hard to make any onscreen adjustments.

I know this can't be normal! Please let me know what I should do first. This monitor is almost unusable as it is.

And thanks for the info on colorimeters and calibration software. That's on the back burner for now, until I get this display working properly. Then I'll start thinking about calibration.

TIA,

Mallomar

 

[Trean]

bah techonweb's price went up another $20, must be all of docM's exchanges, haha


stupid gathering of monies is taking too long I am losing money in the process it seems

 

[koolh]

Hello all,

xtknight, you've got an AMAZING thread going here. gosh 137 pages of stuff? wow. scanning through posts from dec07 took me forever!

anyway i'm looking for a new monitor, and i'd appreciate some recommendations.

- use: moderate gaming, coding, word processing, occasional movies
- size: 19"-20", well possibly 22" (but isn't 22" HUGE? the monitor will be right in front of me (no distant viewing), and i'm considering getting dual monitors in the future, so won't 22" be...overkill? )
- matte (non-glossy): somehow i just don't really like glossy monitors (perhaps it's the glare or reflection, and the stress on your eyes), but from what i've read, it seems that glossy monitors are better for gaming? what are the disadvantages of matte monitors?
- TN and what not: hmm i don't think viewing angles will be an issue with me (well, i didn't even know that looking at my current screen (laptop) from below inverts the colors ) so i guess TN would work fine. when does viewing angle become an issue for your guys anywya? when you're watching movies from afar?
- Widescreen: is widescreen good for gaming? i've never owned a widescreen monitor, so would the resolutions be fine? will there be distortions?

Specific models (ok i only have Staples, Walmart and Best buy near where i live, and after browsing their websites, i don't think many of the models that xtknight recommended on the first page were on them.) Here are a few models in the 19-20" range (removed repetitions)

Bestbuy:
Acer X193WGB, P191WBD
Gateway FPD1976W
HP w1907
LG L196WTQ-BF
Samsung 932BW

Staples:
Acer ALP191WD, AL1916wAbd
HP w2007
NEC ASLCD19WMGX-BK
ViewSonic NX1932w

Walmart:
Acer 1916wabd, 1916wab, AL2016WBb
Samsung 940N, 941BW, 204BW, 206BW
ViewSonic VG930M, VA1916w, VA1903wb, VG1930WM, VA1930wm, VG2030WM

sorry for throwing so many models out, but i can't tell the difference between the different models within the same brand. anything to recommend?

if you guys recommend 22", i'll get either LG L226WTQ, ViewSonic VX2255wmb or Acer 2216wbd (unless further recommendations)

or should i buy them online??

thanks tons for the patience!

 

[redlinez33]

Whats the lighting like in your room? Is there a lamp right behind your screen? Glossy panels adds rich vibrant colors so that can be an advantage for gaming etc. If you mostly use your room in a dark setting. Take a look at the HP w2007, which I actually think you can get from wal-mart as well ........

Glossy, but probably one of the better 20" TN monitors

 

[SCCA Racer X]

Mallomar:

Your symptoms sound more like a hardware failure than a setup issue.

Here's how I'd troubleshoot it.

First, a couple of notes for the technologically challenged!

*** It goes without saying that you should do these tests with the video card set to the native resolution of the display, which in your case is 1920x1200. Ask if you're not sure how.

*** Don't abuse your electronics. Power the computer down before you disconnect or connect any video cables.

1. You are using the supplied DVI cable, I presume. When it comes to electronics, always suspect cables first.

a. Disconnect the DVI cable.
b. Hook up the monitor using a VGA cable.

If that fixes the problem, then start troubleshooting the DVI signal path.
a. Disconnect the VGA cable. (duh!)
b. Examine your new DVI cable for bent pins.
c. If you have one, use a different (preferrably known good) DVI cable.

2. If that doesn't solve the problem, suspect either the monitor or the video card.
a. To test the monitor, connect the new monitor to a different machine.
b. To test the video card, connect a different (preferrably known good) monitor to your system.

At the end of these steps you will have isolated the faulty component. If not, then hopefully your testing has yielded some new clues.

Good luck!

 

[imported_qwester]

I am looking at getting an HP LP2065, mainly because it seems to be a good multimedia and office monitor, has viewing angles that are on the better side of the spectrum, and is decently priced.

I would love to get an IPS panel, but I ?guess? I wouldn't be too sad if I end up with a VA one.

From what little research I did I couldn't seem to find a definitive way of predetermining what panel I am getting. But in the process I found that MacMall has the LP2065 for $309 (AR) Mfg. Part# EF227A8#ABA (that's the lowest price I came across, and seems good even for a VA panel?), they also have another one with a different Mfg. Part# (EF227A4#ABA) for $474.

So by going with the cheaper @ MacMall, am I guarantying myself a VA panel?

Is there any real way for making sure I get an IPS panel? (without costing too much more )

With a VA panel, is the LP2065 still a good option, if I am a bit picky about viewing angles (mainly verticals)?

 

[MrPibb]

Hmmm, I'll just throw my "which LCD to get" up here in hopes someone can just shoot me some recommendations to look at. I'll try to be really descriptive in environments and use.

I'm looking for a 22" or 24" monitor for bedroom use.
No sunlight gets through my window blinds in the day and the room light is a single in-ceiling panel light in the center of the room. More likely then not, I game with it off.
Looking for DVI and VGA inputs - VGA for an XBOX 360 and DVI for a MacBook Pro to also be used as desktop replacement.
The only work I do on the Macbook Pro is audio stuff so the LCD I'm looking for should be centered around gaming. It will have minimal use playing movies however I'd like it to be an option in case the future tells a different story.
My budget is around $300, but saving some extra cash never hurts.
Extra inputs are also a big plus. At least 1 VGA and 1 DVI but an HDMI port or an extra VGA would be great if possible.

However I'm torn exactly between which resolution monitor because of the capabilities of my graphics card. The card I'll be using is an underclocked 128 MB NVidia 8600m GT from a MacBook Pro. It handles the current games I play just fine at the laptop's native resolution which is 1440x900. I'm hoping that going with a 1680x1050 or even a 1920x1200 LCD won't strain the card too much. The current games I play aren't too demanding. They are mainly Team Fortress 2, Counter-Strike: Source, and Guild Wars. If the combination can handle the upcoming Guild Wars 2 then I'll be perfectly happy. No current tech requirements have been released for the game but they're not supposed to be harsh. Either resolution should do fine for the XBOX 360.

2 Monitors i'm currently considering are:

Samsung 226BW - http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16824001096

Sceptre X24WG - http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16824112011

Thanks for any and all help!

 

[czajunia]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: czajunia
xtknight, I am not sure if you remember me asking some questions about Hazro 24'' and your opinion how it compares to NEC 2490. Have you by any chance heard from Simon at TFTCentral about Hazro 24'' additional black level measurements?

No, I haven't heard, sorry.

Well... I just couldn't wait any longer. I decided to go for the renowned NEC 20WGX2Pro. I know that it's slightly to small for me (size and resolution wise) but as I managed to pull one out from ebay for a decent price it helped a bit to make up my mind. I decided to get a smaller NEC and wait to see what are the opinions and reviews on Hazro 24'' or maybe wait for them to introduce a new line of products. I don't think I will be able to lay may hands on NEC 2490 I was initially after and I don't expect too many new IPS monitors coming in the 24'' size in the near future either.

So... I am really sorry if I disappointed anyone waiting for some fresh user's thoughts about Hazro 24'' but I just didn't want to wait for too long. I may still get one though if after using the 20'' panel I really feel that I need extra space and we will get a positive answer from TFTCentral regarding Hazro's black levels.

xtknights - huge kudos for your help and running this thread. Great stuff!!!!! Thank's a lot!!!!

 

[czajunia]

Originally posted by: MrPibb
Hmmm, I'll just throw my "which LCD to get" up here in hopes someone can just shoot me some recommendations to look at. I'll try to be really descriptive in environments and use.

I'm looking for a 22" or 24" monitor for bedroom use.

It will have minimal use playing movies however I'd like it to be an option in case the future tells a different story.

I don't want to recommend anything at this point but I think you should reconsider your choices here. You said that you would like your new monitor for 'a bedroom use with an option to play movies'. From my experience bedroom use and watching the movies involves looking at the screen from different angles and TN panels aren't the best at this. You will be really disappointed if you try to watch anything not from the front of your screen. That's just a thought that maybe you should either consider some non TN panels as well or, considering your budget and monitor size, forget about 'bedroom movies monitor' function.

 

[MrPibb]

Originally posted by: czajunia

Originally posted by: MrPibb
Hmmm, I'll just throw my "which LCD to get" up here in hopes someone can just shoot me some recommendations to look at. I'll try to be really descriptive in environments and use.

I'm looking for a 22" or 24" monitor for bedroom use.

It will have minimal use playing movies however I'd like it to be an option in case the future tells a different story.

I don't want to recommend anything at this point but I think you should reconsider your choices here. You said that you would like your new monitor for 'a bedroom use with an option to play movies'. From my experience bedroom use and watching the movies involves looking at the screen from different angles and TN panels aren't the best at this. You will be really disappointed if you try to watch anything not from the front of your screen. That's just a thought that maybe you should either consider some non TN panels as well or, considering your budget and monitor size, forget about 'bedroom movies monitor' function.

Yea, I don't really mean like for me and buddies to watch movies on, but for me myself sitting directly in front of the monitor watching something every once in a while. If its so impossible then no biggie. I'm mainly concerned for its use as a gaming monitor with a 360/laptop and to use with future desktop computers if I decide to update my dying desktop.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: SCCA Racer X

Originally posted by: xtknight
( by the way, Westinghouse L2410NM is actually a TN (viewing angle was falsely represented by manufacturer). So you should probably remove it from the "non TN" list )

xtknight:

I have recently viewed the Westinghouse L2410NM at several different Best Buys, and none of them were TN panels. Maybe, like the Acer X241WSD, they came with a TN in an earlier version, and switched to a VA panel without changing the model number.

Interesting. Clearly there's some uncertainty.

I spent a fair bit of time playing with both of those monitors, so I may as well share my subjective impressions of them.

I was able to get a more vivid picture on the Westinghouse than on the Acer. They were side-by-side in this case.

The buttons on the Westinghouse are a pain in the @ss to use. Non-intuitive layout, not labeled in any readable way, and you have to press and hold one of the buttons to get into the menus. Before I read that somewhere, I couldn't figure out how to get into the menus at all.

The Acer's buttons are more accessible and well labeled, but ergonomics are marred by the unfortunate placement of the power button in the center of the row of buttons, between the menu and scroll buttons. This means you'll be hitting the power button when you meant to scroll through the menus or adjust a setting.

I prefer the black bezel and aesthetic style of the Westinghouse over the busy silver bezel on the Acer.

A strong point in favor of Acer is their 3 year warranty vs. 1 year for Westinghouse.

Of these two, I'd prefer to have the Westinghouse on my desk. But when it came time to part with real money, I bought the $300 24" Soyo from OfficeMax. I bought it to use at work, to replace a 17" CRT.

Xtknight, thanks for your response to my first post. You said my aversion to VA panels may be overblown, and if not, the only alternative is to save up for an IPS. I've always been sensitive to viewing angle anomalies, and avoided buying an LCD until the Soyo. When the Acer X241WSD went on sale for the same price as the Soyo, I tried really hard to like it enough to replace my 21" Panasonic CRT for my home system. But I just couldn't do it. As I said before, my ideal is to find a 24" (or more!) IPS which costs less than 1% of my gross annual income. :shocked: The price point of the NEC MultiSync LCD2490WUXi would only be justifiable if I could generate income with it, so it seems I will have to be realistic and compromise if I am buying a monitor in the near future. I am considering the HP LP2065 as the only affordable IPS panel out there. Here are my reservations: I haven't seen one in person, and I am afraid that 1600x1200 on a 20" monitor makes a dot pitch too fine for legible text. That's my experience when I run that resolution on my CRT, which has roughly the same viewable screen size. I am happy with the dot pitch of a 24" monitor. Plus, I'd have to order online and accept the risk of panel lottery and/or defective return shipping cost and downtime. Its almost enough to send me back to OfficeMax for a second Soyo to tide me over until the market for 24" IPS panels improves! But then I look at that viewing angle/color/detail shift, and I know that this can never be my primary monitor.

I am still searching for a better choice...

You might wonder why I don't get another CRT. My primary reason is I have a couple of audiophile speakers next to the monitor, and the magnetic fields mess up the picture unless I align everything at funky angles. Its funny when someone comes over and tries to straighten things out. I'm usually the one who annoys people by doing that! :roll: Shielded speakers of this quality would cost more than two monitors. Second, my desk is built-in and the CRT is too deep. I didn't have those problems in the past, but I've recently moved.

LCDs are sharper so maybe the smaller dot pitch won't be an issue. But, you were happier with the Soyo (VA) than the Acer (or even the CRT?), apparently?

Originally posted by: ChaoZ
So is the LG L204WT the best for the 20" monitors?

Edit: So I *might* be able to fit a 22" inch.

Yes the LG L204WT is the best for that price range. The w2007 is a little better.

Originally posted by: starcycle
wow, great thread. big kudos to xtknight for putting this together and keeping it going. I really picked up a lot here. :thumbsup:

I'm coming from a 17" PVA samsung 172t, and needed an upgrade. It's been a few years since I even looked at LCDs, and I was a little shocked to see the sorry state the industry is in. Where are all the the low cost VA/IPS panels you'd expect to see by now? It seems they're actually going in the opposite direction and phasing out all the VAs and IPS in favor of TN on most of these monitors.

Yes, indeed.

Anyway, I started looking yesterday, read about a zillion web and forum pages, and narrowed it down to a couple main choices. The Samsungs looked pretty good, 206BW (I'm going for 20"), but the panel lottery is just totally ridiculous. Are these manufacturers serious? I'm surprised there's not more consumer rebellion and boycott with that kind of nonsense going on. Too bad, too, because the 215TW was my strong first choice, but after reading about the panel scams, I decided I just will not buy from samsung anymore, or Dell for that matter, until they stop putting out different products under the same name. That's totally unethical, imo.

Well don't bar yourself from buying the 215TW which is actually a decent panel. Just avoid the 206BW. Besides I ended up recommending panel lottery monitors anyway since they are still better than the alternatives (such as HP LP2065 but S-IPS is more common here).

The old acer 2051w looked really good for what I wanted (not a gamer, just web, office, text, movies, etc.), though I'm not sure how a glossy screen would have worked in my office room, with strong light coming in from the slider. then I found out it was a moot point anyway b/c it was discontinued, which is what I mean by the direction LCDs are going. Why discontinue that, a decent VA panel, with no comparable replacement? It's insane. HP had a similar glossy model, w2007, but it's TN, and by this time I had decided I was just not going to spend more than $200-225 for a TN monitor. It's ridiculous.

It is odd, since the AL2051W was a cheaper VA panel. VA panels aren't even that expensive so I don't know why it's worth it to use TNs instead.

Finally I settled on the LG L204WT, found it on newegg for a little over 200, and ordered that today. I couldn't believe I was buying a few year-old technology as one of the strongest choices still today, but I guess that's the way things are going. It's just unreal: don't people want quality anymore, or is "gaming" all they care about? Where are all the lower cost options for non-gamers who want high image quality non-TN without spending a fortune, like the 2051w?

I could be wrong, but it seems to me like there's way too much emphasis put on response time (to dazzle the average consumer who doesn't know any better, I guess) to the detriment of other important factors. I think my samsung is like 25-freaking-ms (!!) and it looks fine. I watch DVDs and ripped video on it all the time without a problem. And notice how one of the most important bits of information when buying an LCD -- what kind of panel it is -- is the one thing manufacturers never list? You just kind of have to guess based on viewing angle, response time, searching forums, etc. What's that about? :roll:

well that's my rant. I guess the LG will tide me over for now - hope it's not too much of a downgrade from my 172t. If not I'll just bite the bullet and shell out for a good IPS or *VA again. But I was really surprised at what (to me) seemed like the sorry state of LCDs out there. It seems like things should be more advanced by now than having 7 zillion crappy TN panels and relatively fewer choices for *VA or even IPS. well, maybe in a few more years.

Hopefully. Trust me I'm just as disappointed and more than often in a loss for words as for what to recommend people because they want everything and the kitchen sink, at least in the view of manufacturers. High quality panel for $400? Yeah right...more like $600+ with a few exceptions that are unsuitable for some people and are quickly going out of stock (e.g. 20WMGX2, 215TW, 2007WFP, maybe LP2065).

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Gunlance
I just have one last question. When reviews talk about "sparkle" what is that? I think I know what that is, as I tried to explain it when I was talking about the pulsating pixels of black on that picture of Saturn or in movies I called it "noise" (like high-ISO digital picture)....which is the best thing I could compare it too in my mind.

Reviews on the samsung 215TW say it was noticeable.

Sparkle, if I'm guessing correctly, is also called twinkling by BeHardware and some other French sites. It's basically nothing. They are telling you that their imperfect sources are showing up imperfect on the LCD, essentially. Film will have noticeable grain and what not, more than a CRT which blurs it. It's usually a minor problem and certainly not just with the 215TW.

Another thing they might be talking about is sparkle if the anti-glare coating is a bit weird or a little hazy but you'll get used to it, if so.

What you were seeing is called dithering or FRC.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Mallomar
Please help me, Obi-xtnight! You're my only hope!

My 2690 arrived today, and the display looks just awful. My guess is that it just needs to be adjusted, but I can't figure out how to do it. I'm technologically challenged. The desktop background has vertical pinstripes, and the text (which should be black, or at least gray!) is different colors -- mostly green and purple (probably red and blue pixels). Looks like it's out of convergence, if that's the right term.

First, I want to make sure we've got it cabled correctly. We used the DVI-D cable. My husband claims it's plugged into the DVI-D connector on the monitor, and I think he's right .

I installed Naviset, hoping it might be easier to use than the OSM. But I can't figure it out -- there are lots of test patterns, but I don't see how to adjust anything other than brightness, contrast, etc. I don't see how to fix the alignment or convergence or whatever it is.

And the ghosting is terrible -- I can't believe this is normal for a NEC 2690! It's a hundred, no, a million times worse than on my husband's cheap LG (or the really cheap Princeton that preceded it). It's so bad that it's actually difficult to read text. And it also made it hard to make any onscreen adjustments.

I know this can't be normal! Please let me know what I should do first. This monitor is almost unusable as it is.

And thanks for the info on colorimeters and calibration software. That's on the back burner for now, until I get this display working properly. Then I'll start thinking about calibration.

TIA,

Mallomar

First I would try lowering the resolution to see if lack of bandwidth is a problem. It's vaguely possible you'd need a new video card. I believe the 2690 supports dual-link DVI (not 2 DVI connectors, but a special type of 1-DVI connection) for increased bandwidth, and that's the mode my card (7800GT) is using.

See how lowering the resolution (to, say, 1280x1024) works and we'll go from there.

You might also try a reset of the monitor settings (top-right-most reset button of bezel).

And to get a better response time you need to enable OVERDRIVE in the advanced menu. As you're turning the monitor on, hold down the INPUT button until you see the screen. Then press the menu button and a more advanced menu will come up. Go to Section 7 and enable OVERDRIVE.

Interestingly the NEC also has an option called CableComp which is supposed to help with long cable connections and lower bandwidth situations. I guess you can try that for fun, but it really should only be necessary for extreme situations.

SCCA Racer X laid out many steps that I was too lazy to type up myself so hopefully between our suggestions you will learn something.

 

[xtknight]

I'd like to notify everyone of the new Conventions and Panel Types sections. You should probably give these a read-through if you haven't already.

Originally posted by: koolh
Hello all,

xtknight, you've got an AMAZING thread going here. gosh 137 pages of stuff? wow. scanning through posts from dec07 took me forever!

anyway i'm looking for a new monitor, and i'd appreciate some recommendations.

- use: moderate gaming, coding, word processing, occasional movies
- size: 19"-20", well possibly 22" (but isn't 22" HUGE? the monitor will be right in front of me (no distant viewing), and i'm considering getting dual monitors in the future, so won't 22" be...overkill? )

Well of course that's subjective, but I don't think 22" is too big. I use a 25.5" regularly and I don't find it big.

- matte (non-glossy): somehow i just don't really like glossy monitors (perhaps it's the glare or reflection, and the stress on your eyes), but from what i've read, it seems that glossy monitors are better for gaming? what are the disadvantages of matte monitors?

Glossy monitors aren't necessarily better for gaming but they have more vibrant colors and deeper blacks. Matte panels are better for most people though. They just don't have quite as deep of a black but they block reflections better and have just as high of contrast really, if you get the right panel. They don't crush dark details as much as glossy panels, so mattes may actually be better image quality wise.

- TN and what not: hmm i don't think viewing angles will be an issue with me (well, i didn't even know that looking at my current screen (laptop) from below inverts the colors ) so i guess TN would work fine. when does viewing angle become an issue for your guys anywya? when you're watching movies from afar?

Viewing angle is a bigger problem on bigger screens, and plus, TNs have quite an unstable screen which isn't really viewing angle but just uniformity. White can look dirty; it's sort of hard to explain. There is certainly tone shifting at small changes in angle though, which won't immediately be apparent unless you look at the right images.

- Widescreen: is widescreen good for gaming? i've never owned a widescreen monitor, so would the resolutions be fine? will there be distortions?

Please give the OP a read for this one.

Specific models (ok i only have Staples, Walmart and Best buy near where i live, and after browsing their websites, i don't think many of the models that xtknight recommended on the first page were on them.) Here are a few models in the 19-20" range (removed repetitions)

Bestbuy:
Acer X193WGB, P191WBD
Gateway FPD1976W
HP w1907
LG L196WTQ-BF
Samsung 932BW

Staples:
Acer ALP191WD, AL1916wAbd
HP w2007
NEC ASLCD19WMGX-BK
ViewSonic NX1932w

Walmart:
Acer 1916wabd, 1916wab, AL2016WBb
Samsung 940N, 941BW, 204BW, 206BW
ViewSonic VG930M, VA1916w, VA1903wb, VG1930WM, VA1930wm, VG2030WM

sorry for throwing so many models out, but i can't tell the difference between the different models within the same brand. anything to recommend?

if you guys recommend 22", i'll get either LG L226WTQ, ViewSonic VX2255wmb or Acer 2216wbd (unless further recommendations)

or should i buy them online??

thanks tons for the patience!

The only thing I'd recommend there is the w2007 and maybe the L196WTQ. The w2007 is a pretty good LCD though it's glossy. That should be good for gaming though. I recommend getting a ViewSonic VX2255wmb (online if need be) personally.

 

[Mallomar]

Originally posted by: SCCA Racer X
Mallomar:

Your symptoms sound more like a hardware failure than a setup issue.

Here's how I'd troubleshoot it.

First, a couple of notes for the technologically challenged!

*** It goes without saying that you should do these tests with the video card set to the native resolution of the display, which in your case is 1920x1200. Ask if you're not sure how.

*** Don't abuse your electronics. Power the computer down before you disconnect or connect any video cables.

1. You are using the supplied DVI cable, I presume. When it comes to electronics, always suspect cables first.

a. Disconnect the DVI cable.
b. Hook up the monitor using a VGA cable.

If that fixes the problem, then start troubleshooting the DVI signal path.
a. Disconnect the VGA cable. (duh!)
b. Examine your new DVI cable for bent pins.
c. If you have one, use a different (preferrably known good) DVI cable.

2. If that doesn't solve the problem, suspect either the monitor or the video card.
a. To test the monitor, connect the new monitor to a different machine.
b. To test the video card, connect a different (preferrably known good) monitor to your system.

At the end of these steps you will have isolated the faulty component. If not, then hopefully your testing has yielded some new clues.

Good luck!

I set the resolution to 1920 x 1200 using the "settings" tab in the display properties. Refresh rate is 60 Hz (I don't think I had any other options).

When you say "VGA cable" do you mean one of the other cables that came with the monitor? (I'm using the DVI-D to DVI-D now. I also have a mini D-SUB 15-pin to mini D-SUB 15-pin cable, and a 15-pin mini D-SUB male to DVI-A cable, both of which came with the monitor. Or did you mean an older type of cable?

I don't think the cable is the problem, though, because to troubleshoot, I tried the following: I hooked up the 2690 to a different computer using an analog cable (that computer has an older video card so the max resolution available is 1680 x 1050), and it has the same problems -- severe image persistence, green and purple text, etc.

Right now I am using my husband's cheap LG LCD with the NEC DVI cable, and it looks great. No image persistence at all, text is black (well, as black as it gets on an LCD). So I'm thinking we can rule out the DVI cable as a suspect.

And I also don't think it's my video card (a brand new 8800 GTS), because the LG looks great, and my old computer (a Spectraview CRT that died a week ago) also looked good, considering it was slowly failing. I also briefly used a cheap Princeton LCD with this video card and it looked fine.

So does it sound like I can rule out problems with the cable and video card? The fact that the monitor looks crummy on my old computer puts me back to square one -- either some settings are severely out of whack, or I've gotten a defective monitor.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Mallomar
I don't think the cable is the problem, though, because to troubleshoot, I tried the following: I hooked up the 2690 to a different computer using an analog cable (that computer has an older video card so the max resolution available is 1680 x 1050), and it has the same problems -- severe image persistence, green and purple text, etc.

Then I think you should waste no time getting an RMA for this monitor. It seems to be obviously/clearly defective. You might try the Reset button on it first but I doubt that would fix anything and it shouldn't have shipped with messed up settings.

Depending on which store you ordered it from, you may have to contact NEC directly for replacements. Check the store's return policies for LCDs or even a specific policy for this monitor which would probably be listed on its product/specs/order page.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: qwester
I am looking at getting an HP LP2065, mainly because it seems to be a good multimedia and office monitor, has viewing angles that are on the better side of the spectrum, and is decently priced.

I would love to get an IPS panel, but I ?guess? I wouldn't be too sad if I end up with a VA one.

From what little research I did I couldn't seem to find a definitive way of predetermining what panel I am getting. But in the process I found that MacMall has the LP2065 for $309 (AR) Mfg. Part# EF227A8#ABA (that's the lowest price I came across, and seems good even for a VA panel?), they also have another one with a different Mfg. Part# (EF227A4#ABA) for $474.

So by going with the cheaper @ MacMall, am I guarantying myself a VA panel?

Is there any real way for making sure I get an IPS panel? (without costing too much more )

With a VA panel, is the LP2065 still a good option, if I am a bit picky about viewing angles (mainly verticals)?

I really don't know. A4 seems more likely to get you an S-IPS. Maybe A4=S-IPS and A8=AMVA? I'm not sure.

http://www.hardforum.com/showt...ge=16&highlight=lp2065

Yes the VA panel is still a good idea. Black might be deeper than S-IPS too but there will be a tad more color shifting.