[Retired] The LCD Thread

[Mallomar]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Yes I think you did the right thing by contacting NEC. They tend to have nice customer service so I wouldn't worry much.

I'm sure it will all work out in the end, but right now steam is coming out of my ears. I called NEC to check on the status of my "case," and was told it was "pending" because they wanted a "better description of the problem." Apparently someone thinks that what I am seeing maybe just be normal image persistence (is there a difference between image persistence and ghosting?). Unfortunately I called 1/2 hour after the supervisor left for the day, so I have to call back tomorrow.

I hooked up the monitor again and took a bunch of digital photos. I assume I can't upload them here but hope it's okay to post a link:

mallomar.net/modern/NECphotos.zip

If anyone wants to look at these photos, and tell me whether the images could possibly be considered normal, I would really appreciate it. I have e-mailed the images to NEC tech support.

I've never seen anything like this on my other two (cheapo) LCDs, friends' LCDs, or the ones on display in the computer stores. What you'll be seeing in my images are Explorer windows, MSIE (with the NEC home page -- I figured they KNOW what that's supposed to look it, and it shouldn't have ghostly Photoshop palettes and Explorer windows on it!), and in one photo, my desktop. In one of the Photoshop images, I moved the actions palette (which is very colorful) around, so multiple ghosts of it are visible.

I know NEC tech support has to be reasonably sure there's a problem -- difficult since they can't see it for themselves -- and I understand they don't want to just be sending out new monitors willy-nilly without good reason, but I don't know why they couldn't have contacted me to let me know my case had stalled.

If I have to, suppose I could shoot video of the display -- moving windows around so they can see how long the ghosts hang around -- and send them a tape, but I hope it doesn't come to that!

I'll definitely be calling them a couple of times a day to check the status of the case.

One thing the tech support guy asked me -- although I didn't think to clarify why -- is whether the ghosts were still there if I switched the monitor off and then back on. And they do. What does that mean in terms of monitor function? BTW, both tech support guys have been really nice. They aren't the ones who make the decisions, though.

 

[22222]

This thread is humongous, and I've only read a few pages so bear with me . I'm looking for a new monitor to replace an old 17" CRT. I'm thinking something like a wide 20.1 or so screen since I dont have room for anything much bigger. Uses would be mostly gaming, movies and text so I need something that would look decent on all of the above.

I was thinking of something like this:

http://accessories.us.dell.com...&sku=320-4688#Overview

The 2007wfp seems like a good choice despite the panel lotteries, but I'm open to suggestions. The budget would be around 400$ tops. Thanks in advance .

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: soltys
I have a question regarding one of the moitors - NEC MultiSync 20WMGX2. Living in Europe, only 20WGX version is available, but lack of HDCP doesn't bother me.

But the only 20WMGX2 / 20WGX2 monitors sold now are "Pro" ones, which I assume are newer version/revision. Did you have any experiences with those particular models ? I have yet to find any reviews of them.

Its the same thing. If I recall correctly, they updated the other models in the series (17" and 19"), so the 20 got renamed too...but nothing was actually changed. Just count yourself lucky you can still buy them new, because they're pretty much all gone here in North America.

 

[asintu]

are there any upcoming 27'' monitors that have been announced?
cause we only have the 2707wfp and the 275t worth buying in the 27'' range right now.

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: xboxist
Any word on an upgrade/successor to the 20WMGX2? I thought I heard mentionings of a 24" version coming out in '07. Or was it a 23"?

I read the same rumors here and elsewhere, but the dates given for the replacement have long since come and gone. I was told by an NEC sales rep. and an NEC distributor that the 20WMGX2 has already been replaced by the 22WMGX (yep, you guessed it, a 22" TN). There's also a 24" version (24WMCX), but from what I can tell, its just a bigger pile of the same crap.

When I asked why, the NEC rep. said that after all the dirt cheap 22" TNs hit the shelves, the big retail stores like BestBuy refused to stock the 20WMGX2 any longer because people preferred a crappy 22" TN over the smaller but much more expensive NEC. He also told me that according to the roadmap, NEC will not be producing any more consumer IPS models; from now on, only the top-o-the-line 90 series will be IPS. The rest of their "pro/business" lineup (like the 70 series) will be VAs, and everything else will be TNs, because thats what sells for $5 at Wally World.

He also implied that NEC was not alone, and the entire industry is moving in the same direction. Based on what I've seen, he was right; for example, ViewSonic no longer sells a single IPS, and their entire lineup except the Pro series (VAs) has been glutted with TNs. And as of last week, there are now 2 TNs in their Pro series as well...

So basically, the lowest common denominator that buys their hardware at BestBuy and K-Mart has ruined the LCD market for the rest of us.

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Deleted

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Also deleted.

Sorry, I somehow clicked on the wrong page and responded to two posts that were a year old...

 

[ClockHound]

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong
Also deleted.

Sorry, I somehow clicked on the wrong page and responded to two posts that were a year old...

Yeah, but was it a timely response? More hopeful than your last NEC reality check, I expect. A year ago, back when the future was displayed on a vibrant AS-IPS screen at Fry's. Those were the days.

 

[krilonx]

I think it's just the color (BF black, WF white), but I still don't understand if the contrast is 2000 or 3000:1
It's about one of your recommended 19" LCDs: LG L1970HR (L1970HR-BF, L1970HR-WF)
Thank for your great guide!

 

[KenSings]

Hi - new here, I hope I'm posting correctly

1) HUGE THANKS for all the detailed work and recommendations

2) I don't' see the aforementioned Hot Delas (tons) anywhere (I see the recommendations, though)
Quote from first page:
Jan 21, 2008: Moved Hot Deals ( tons ) and Recommendations to second post

3) I'm a photo editor, couldn't care less about speed or latency, but want color and contrast for reasonable price. My best picks are:
ViewSonic VX2435WM (seems some folks have a rebate making it ~$560)
Dell 2407WFP-HC (599 at dell right now)
I'm leaning toward the Dell because of larger color gamut as per digitalversus. Unfortunately Digitalversus doesn't have contrast info for the ViewSonic, so not sure how contrast stacks up. The grey levels look better on their Dell review. Does anyone want to help sway me in either direction, or recommend something else? (knowing I don't want to go for any higher cost). BTW, I'll be running this alongside a CRT in dual monitor mode. Have NVidia 8400GS if that matters.

4) I've searched but not found any info on color calibrators and which one to get. I'm thinking along the lines of $100-200ish, and need dual-monitor support and good operability with Photoshop. That means (I think) Huey Pro, Spyder3Pro, or maybe Eye One Display 2. Does anyone have recommendations or can point me to reviews to help me decide? The Spyder3 seems to brag about having 7 detectors, which if that actually represents 7 color bands may be a good thing, but are they cheating and talking about RGB screen, RGB ambient, plus 1 overall sensor, or are they really reading 7 spectral bands? Anyway, I'd like help determining the best of these for photo editing purposes. I have an old Spyder2 but it doesn't claim to be able to do 2 monitors.

5) Any good tutorials out there on exactly how to use calibrators with Photoshop to get best results?

Again, Many Many thanks for all the great information.

 

[Trean]

Originally posted by: KenSings

2) I don't' see the aforementioned Hot Delas (tons) anywhere (I see the recommendations, though)
Quote from first page:
Jan 21, 2008: Moved Hot Deals ( tons ) and Recommendations to second post

probably because there are no hot deals at the moment that you just shouldn't pass up

 

[SCCA Racer X]

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong

He also implied that NEC was not alone, and the entire industry is moving in the same direction. Based on what I've seen, he was right; for example, ViewSonic no longer sells a single IPS, and their entire lineup except the Pro series (VAs) has been glutted with TNs. And as of last week, there are now 2 TNs in their Pro series as well...

So basically, the lowest common denominator that buys their hardware at BestBuy and K-Mart has ruined the LCD market for the rest of us.

My goal at the moment is to compile a list of all the current models with IPS panels.

I am starting to scour the various manufacturer's sites for IPS models which may have been neglected in this forum. I started with LG, since they make the panel in the NEC and Planar 24" IPS models. I was shocked to see there is not one IPS panel in their lineup. What's up with that?

I don't know who ticks me off worse, companies who don't care to compete and market the state of the art, or uncritical consumers who blissfully accept products that barely work.

I predict my list is going to be pretty short, but it will take a while to be sure I haven't missed anything.

 

[Cheex]

What does this mean?

Planar PX2411W
Viewing Angle (Typical): 178° Horizontal and Vertical (specified at CR>10:1)

 

[jcc56]

Originally posted by: Cheex
What does this mean?

Planar PX2411W
Viewing Angle (Typical): 178° Horizontal and Vertical (specified at CR>10:1)

CR stands for Contrast Ratio. So, what it means is that the observed contrast ratio at the furthest point of the viewing envelope (+- 89 deg H/V) is 10:1. The contrast ratio will be higher at a more normal viewing angle.

 

[starcycle]

Originally posted by: pcgamer321
glossy screen is no big deal. The Acer AL2051W that I had which I loved had glossy screen, but I gave it to my brother(regreat that now lol).
So that HP is the best 300 bucks can get me? Looks great!

I would go for it then. It's a nice monitor. :thumbsup:

 

[starcycle]

Originally posted by: KenSings

3) I'm a photo editor, couldn't care less about speed or latency, but want color and contrast for reasonable price. My best picks are:
ViewSonic VX2435WM (seems some folks have a rebate making it ~$560)
Dell 2407WFP-HC (599 at dell right now)

I'm leaning toward the Dell because of larger color gamut as per digitalversus. Unfortunately Digitalversus doesn't have contrast info for the ViewSonic, so not sure how contrast stacks up. The grey levels look better on their Dell review. Does anyone want to help sway me in either direction, or recommend something else? (knowing I don't want to go for any higher cost). BTW, I'll be running this alongside a CRT in dual monitor mode. Have NVidia 8400GS if that matters.

If you think you could go down to 22", I would strongly recommend checking out the Lenovo L220x. It looks like it would be an incredible monitor for photoediting. It's 22", but still has the 1920x1200 resolution of the 24". here's some info and reviews:

http://www.lenovoblogs.com/designmatters/?p=180
http://forums.lenovo.com/lnv/b...hinkvision&thread.id=2

 

[Engraver]

Ordered a Planar PX2611W today. I would have preferred a 24" since it would fit better on my desk, but this monitor seems to be the closest thing quality/input lag wise to the 20WMGX2, so I thought I'd give it a try. I should get it Monday at the latest, will post more then.

 

[pcgamer321]

Originally posted by: starcycle

Originally posted by: pcgamer321
glossy screen is no big deal. The Acer AL2051W that I had which I loved had glossy screen, but I gave it to my brother(regreat that now lol).
So that HP is the best 300 bucks can get me? Looks great!

I would go for it then. It's a nice monitor. :thumbsup:

Alright! Thanks!

 

[AtmosFear]

Originally posted by: ericac
So I think my two choices are Gateway FHD2400 and Dell 2407WFP-HC. I keep going back and forth. The Dell seems like the right choice, but then I've never had a LCD before (except a purely work machine) so I'm not sure how bad I'll think the ghosting would be. I can go look at the Gateway in my local Circuit City, but I'm not sure what to look for to clinch the decision...

Apparently Dell is going to be coming out with a 2408WFP quite soon. Personally I'm going to wait for it to see if it fixes the ghosting problem. Here's some more info:

http://www.engadget.com/2008/0...ayport-and-everything/

no idea on when it'll actually be available for sale.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: starcycle

Originally posted by: pcgamer321

edit:

I found the w2007
and this LG L206WTY which seems better.

Oh btw, I think my budget can go up to $300

the 206 has a faster response time, but it doesn't have 16.7 million colors, only 16.2. the human eye probably woulldn't be able to detect the difference, but that says to me that the panels are different, and that some image quality has probably been sacrificed for the extra couple of ms (which you probably won't notice, either ). and who knows, maybe there would be subtle differences in blacks, etc.

the w2007 is a really nice monitor, and I would have gone for it but it has the glossy screen. if that's not an issue for you, it would also be a good choice, imo.

pcgamer321:

The L206 I'm not really sure about. It hasn't been reviewed. The w2007 is a great choice if you like glossy panels.

Originally posted by: jcc56
First, great thread.....thanks to all for your contributions. It has really helped me get a handle some of the current offerings.

I'm researching displays as I plan to upgrade my system. I don't really want a widescreen for PC but seems that's all that is really available with good technology.

In looking at specifications I think I might be interested in the BENQ X2200W. If anyone has actually seen / used one of these please post your impressions and thoughts. I haven't found anywhere that you can actually see a BENQ display.....

I'm currently using a Samsung 191T and it has been a great monitor with its only drawback being slow response time for gaming. In general I've learned to live with it. Overall, I have been a fan of Samsung for awhile but the stuff I've read on the 226BW has given me some concerns. If I could be sure I was getting an S-Type panel, is the 226BW a good choice? I have the opportunity to get one that is an S-Type panel.

Yes the 226BW-S is an excellent choice for gamers.

As far as my planned system upgrade and usage, I'll probably end up with a moderately high-end system -- Dell XPS 720 or Alienware Area 51 level. Main uses are FPS, RP, and strategy gaming (so graphics performance is very important), general web browsing / text applications (crisp, readable text), and non-professional photo enthusiast (good color performance). I do not watch DVDs and do very little video editting so that is of least importance in my decision.

I'd prefer the viewing angle performance of a S-PVA/PVA/MVA panel but they seem to not be available in the 22" models. I don't want to bigger than 22" since I don't really want a widescreen to start with. I'd definitely consider a 19" - 20.1" - 21.x" normal aspect ratio monitor as well if it has the performance level I want. One of the features that I definitely don't want is the hardcoat contrast enhancement which causes high level of reflections. Lastly, I'm willing to pay somewhat of a premium so doesn't have to be the cheapest option.

Any suggestions of what I should be looking at as opposed to the BENQ X2200W or Samsung 226BW?

I doubt the BenQ X2200W will be comparable to the 226BW. Frankly, nothing has been and I doubt anything will ever be comparable to the 226BW-S because no one wants to make good panels anymore. The X2200W certainly offers nothing worth waiting for. The wide gamut is not going to make it better for gaming. All implementations of the backlight flickering so far have been lackluster and unattractive and I don't see this changing with the X2200W, either.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Mallomar

Originally posted by: xtknight
Burn-in appears at a particular location on the screen only. The video card does not know it exists, because it is a problem on the monitor. When you take a screenshot you are only dumping the video card's memory. Therefore, it will only appear if you open it on the monitor in the same spot.

Yes I think you did the right thing by contacting NEC. They tend to have nice customer service so I wouldn't worry much.

I never realized a screen shot was a dump of the video card memory. Does that mean I could turn off the monitor right now, hit "print screen" and still have captured the display from the video card? (If a tree falls in the woods ...) I would try it, but I can't figure out how to turn off this monitor!

Yes, the video card still sends a signal while the monitor is off (or at least the video memory is still active).

Originally posted by: darktiger
I have two dell monitors the 1908FPc and the 1908FPt. What is the difference between these?

I have no idea. I can't find specs on them. But, considering you have them it's probably easy to tell if there's a big difference.

Originally posted by: krilonx
Hi! Thank you for this great thread!

I'm considering as a buying option one of your recommended 19" LCDs, LG L1970HR, but I need to know if there is a difference between L1970HR and L1970HR-BF.

I can't find the answer, not even on LG website. There could be substantial differences, as I know. Anyway, it could mean black (color), different design (but I think it isn't this), different contrast, or even different panels. For example, I found out that Philips has two digits at the end of their model codes which can indicate different panels (TN, VA, etc.), something like 00, 05 or 10, but it isn't a rule. And it would be a question of luck to get the panel you like!

BF means black bezel and nothing else.

It's very difficult to understand model codification for each producer, but it?s very interesting. They keep it secret, as I can see.

And I need also to know if there could be problems with dead (sub)pixels, more than on other LCDs, but I suppose there aren't, as it is in your recommended ones.

I'll keep searching...

Thank you!

Dead pixels aren't that common on LCDs smaller than 24" anymore. I don't know of any particular abundance of dead pixels on that LG model...

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: ericac
First off, I can't thank you enough for maintaining this post, it's quite a wealth of knowledge :thumbsup:

Now my question is that I am in the market for an LCD. I'm finally getting around to replacing a 21" Trinitron beast that has served me very very very well for 10+ yrs.
Here's what I'd use it for:
I am a programmer (lots of terminal windows & text to look at)
I do a fair amount of photo work (for web / personal use, nothing print quality)
I want a multimedia hub (console games)
watch movies
some limited PC gaming (mainly MMORPGs, no FPS)
my main computer is a MacPro (running OS 10.5 95% of the time, WinXP 5%)
This monitor will likely be mounted on a desk mount arm to easily adjust the viewing angle.

I think my budget is somewhere around $5-600, not too much more, and I'm looking at 24" or so. Maybe as low as 20", and probably not too bigger, because that money won't go much further!

So I think my two choices are Gateway FHD2400 and Dell 2407WFP-HC. I keep going back and forth. The Dell seems like the right choice, but then I've never had a LCD before (except a purely work machine) so I'm not sure how bad I'll think the ghosting would be. I can go look at the Gateway in my local Circuit City, but I'm not sure what to look for to clinch the decision...

Any advise would be most appreciated!
TIA

I actually wouldn't have suggested either of those. The Gateway is not great for darker details. The 2407WFP-HC is decent but it does have minor ghosting issues.

The ViewSonic VX2435wm sounds like the best for you. It is the least problematic 24" LCD as far as I can tell that has all the inputs intact. The HP LP2465 is another good option but you might need a component->VGA transcoder if you're hooking up consoles. And I really can't guarantee the console capabilities of these monitors either. It's something I get asked a lot but I simply don't know. There are a lot of models to keep track of, and a lot of resolutions. It's probably best you research this one on your own for your own needs anyways. They might mention it in PRAD reviews (at least they mention scaling):

http://prad.de/en/monitore/reviews.html

User experiences with consoles generally come from the Displays forum on HardForum.

I hope this points you in the right direction. ViewSonic is first choice and if for some reason that is unacceptable, then go w/ the LP2465.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Tasiin
xtknight, do you think we've seen the last of good S-IPS displays in sizes below 26"? The increasing dominance of TN and VA panels has me disappointed to say the least, and I'm beginning to wonder if there will be any new LCDs within the next few years or so that will be anywhere near as good as some of the older 20" IPS screens, such as the 2007WFP or 20WMGX2.

I think Hazro said they may market in the US (for 24"/26" S-IPS screens) but this is just a rumor.

There probably won't be any more S-IPS 20" panels at least in the consumer/affordable sector. S-IPS below 24" is basically dead. There will probably be a couple more VA panels because of new LED backlight tech and what not but I'm sure most will be TNs. Already the first upcoming LED backlight monitors are TNs...

I don't know everything but I'm just saying don't get your hopes up.

When I returned my 20WMGX2 almost a year ago now and picked up a refurbished CRT, I (naively) thought there would be some progress in the LCD industry within the next few years or so, but so far that hasn't really been the case. I'm starting to wonder if I should chance the lottery for the HP LP2065 or Dell 2007FP/FPW and hope I get an S-IPS version that I can at least use as a secondary monitor for now, and then as a primary if my CRT ever dies.

I recommend just saving up for an NEC LCD2490WUXi, getting a ViewSonic VX2435wm (VA), or Planar PX2611 (S-IPS).

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Nnyan
Ok so so far I've tested (with spyder2) the following LCDs:

W2007
226BW
Soyo 24
FHD2400
L226WT
VX2255wmb

Not sure why but I left the viewsonic for last mostly b/c in my head I wanted to like one of the other monitors. Now this may not be for everyone but i'm very sensitive to refresh rate/lag (brightness/contrast whatever it is that bothers me) in LCDs. Playing games makes me dizzy after a few minutes to a few hours depending on the panel. II have to say that after having the viewsonic for almost a week now the VX2255wmb is quickly becoming my favorite. Colors look very good, not quite as vivid as other glossy screens but very nice. Playing crisis, TF2 and other fast action games and so far I have yet to feel dizzy. Everything looks really nice and the viewing angles are better then the Gateway. Backlight bleed is about average for a TN, a little worse then the samsung panels but not as bad as the Gateway, overall not a huge issue. I do miss the extra 2" of the 24" panels but again not a huge issue for my use. I'll have more time to spend with it this weekend and I'll make up my mind then, but so far so good.

If the L226WT is the Q/Y version it uses overdrive. And the rest of those LCDs use overdrive I think.

The VX2255wmb is the only one that doesn't have overdrive. Maybe that's what's causing it? I'd be surprised, though. The VX probably has slightly more image ghosting/trailing than the other ones too. But it has lower input lag also.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Mallomar

Originally posted by: xtknight
Yes I think you did the right thing by contacting NEC. They tend to have nice customer service so I wouldn't worry much.

I'm sure it will all work out in the end, but right now steam is coming out of my ears. I called NEC to check on the status of my "case," and was told it was "pending" because they wanted a "better description of the problem." Apparently someone thinks that what I am seeing maybe just be normal image persistence (is there a difference between image persistence and ghosting?). Unfortunately I called 1/2 hour after the supervisor left for the day, so I have to call back tomorrow.

I hooked up the monitor again and took a bunch of digital photos. I assume I can't upload them here but hope it's okay to post a link:

mallomar.net/modern/NECphotos.zip

If anyone wants to look at these photos, and tell me whether the images could possibly be considered normal, I would really appreciate it. I have e-mailed the images to NEC tech support.

I've never seen anything like this on my other two (cheapo) LCDs, friends' LCDs, or the ones on display in the computer stores. What you'll be seeing in my images are Explorer windows, MSIE (with the NEC home page -- I figured they KNOW what that's supposed to look it, and it shouldn't have ghostly Photoshop palettes and Explorer windows on it!), and in one photo, my desktop. In one of the Photoshop images, I moved the actions palette (which is very colorful) around, so multiple ghosts of it are visible.

I know NEC tech support has to be reasonably sure there's a problem -- difficult since they can't see it for themselves -- and I understand they don't want to just be sending out new monitors willy-nilly without good reason, but I don't know why they couldn't have contacted me to let me know my case had stalled.

If I have to, suppose I could shoot video of the display -- moving windows around so they can see how long the ghosts hang around -- and send them a tape, but I hope it doesn't come to that!

I'll definitely be calling them a couple of times a day to check the status of the case.

One thing the tech support guy asked me -- although I didn't think to clarify why -- is whether the ghosts were still there if I switched the monitor off and then back on. And they do. What does that mean in terms of monitor function? BTW, both tech support guys have been really nice. They aren't the ones who make the decisions, though.

I don't think they don't believe you, they probably just need the best case possible before sending out another $1200 LCD. It's one of those things the "higher ups" require to give them a sense of power.

Those photos will surely show them. That image persistence is not normal by any means.

Turning the monitor off/on again? Basically it's like telling you to check the power plug I guess, I don't know. It's a last resort attempt at fixing, kind of like restarting Windows (which, admittedly, works sometimes).