[Retired] The LCD Thread

[albovin]

More information about the Dell 2408

 

[airjrdn]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: airjrdn
I just brought home a Samsung 2232BW and unfortunately, games (UT3/Crysis) were still blurry. I returned it to BB (no restocking fee on monitors) and went to CC and picked up a 2253BW. Gaming/blurryness they seem the same to me.

I'm contemplating trying the 2232GW, but I'm sure it'll be blurry too.

I just wanted to give a heads up to any gamers looking to try these monitors, because CC does charge the 15% restocking fee on monitors. They consider going from the 2253BW to the 2232GW an upgrade (because it's more expensive) and will waive the fee, but if you wanted to go back to the 2253BW, you'd have to pay it on the more expensive monitor.

Blurry? I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by that. Blurry when still or blur increasing with motion? Did you not see this blurriness on another LCD?

Blurry during fast motion while gaming. The second the mouse stops, things are perfectly clear. Begin moving (looking around) however, and it reappears immediately.

It's on par with the other 2ms models I've tried, but it's no match for a CRT. After awhile of playing, I began not noticing it as badly, but anyone who says it (or any other LCD) doesn't blur/ghost/etc. in games just isn't seeing it, it's there (unfortunately).

 

[airjrdn]

Originally posted by: j0j081

Originally posted by: airjrdn
I just brought home a Samsung 2232BW and unfortunately, games (UT3/Crysis) were still blurry. I returned it to BB (no restocking fee on monitors) and went to CC and picked up a 2253BW. Gaming/blurryness they seem the same to me.

I'm contemplating trying the 2232GW, but I'm sure it'll be blurry too.

I just wanted to give a heads up to any gamers looking to try these monitors, because CC does charge the 15% restocking fee on monitors. They consider going from the 2253BW to the 2232GW an upgrade (because it's more expensive) and will waive the fee, but if you wanted to go back to the 2253BW, you'd have to pay it on the more expensive monitor.

where you playing at the lcds native resolution? maybe you mean ghosting but neither of those monitors should have that either. I used to have the 2232BW so I would know.

Yes, 1680x1050.

There's blurring, it's evident enough for my wife (non gamer) to see. Since I've seen the exact same thing with 4 different 2ms monitors now, on two different PC's of mine, I'm certain it's not a "bad monitor".

The machine it's hooked to currently is a quad core 2.66Ghz running at 3.4Ghz with 4G of RAM, and dual 768M 8800GTX's in SLI. It's hooked up via DVI.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Tasiin
I don't think I'm really changing my opinion about it. Now that the monitor's been on for a while I can see it more clearly again, but it still doesn't seem as bad as before. Maybe I'm just getting used to it? I actually asked someone else to take a look at the yellow patch when I first noticed it, and they agreed that it looked yellow and were able to identify the portion of the screen it was in without me pointing it out, so it's definitely not just me.

The HP really doesn't seem to have the bands at all. When I look at it up close on a black image, all I see is the usual very fine "mesh" like effect that you see on most LCD monitors. The Dell has thick horizontal bands running through it instead that can be seen even when I'm sitting pretty far back. I tried taking a few pictures of it, but just got a blurry mess.

I agree that those flickering tests are worthless. I looked at solid gray images instead, and it was also noticeable during normal use if the brightness was low enough. At 45 brightness, I could see it happening on my desktop background (one of the Vista defaults). At 0, there's a huge wave going through any solid and light color, the worst being gray. I don't think it's even a question of being sensitive to it or not at that point; if your monitor is doing it, you will see it. I had to keep it at about 80 and lower the brightness in the Nvidia control panel to get the flickering under control. There's a ten page long thread on Dell's forums about this issue, and lots of recent complaints about it happening on the newest revision (which I have).

I compared both of them to a Dell P992 CRT, and the 2007WFP was almost always either within a hair's breadth of it or had identical times. The HP was behind in every shot, with the highest lag of about 47ms. The worst time I saw on the 2007WFP was 32ms, but the average was much better for the Dell. I never saw the LP2065 and the CRT displaying the same time, but the 2007WFP did several times. This probably explains why the HP was so far behind so frequently when I compared them directly.

Here are a few of the shots:

2007WFP's best time
2007WFP's worst time

LP2065's best time
LP2065's worst time

I tried that reaction time test, and it actually seemed to mirror my results pretty much exactly. I'd get about 250 average on the LP2065 and between 180-190 on the CRT.

I almost feel bad for thinking about returning this just for the input lag (and the slight yellow tint, I guess) since it seems to be fine otherwise. It's just not as good of a gaming monitor as the 2007WFP is due to this, even though they're similar otherwise. The input lag is annoying on the desktop as well, but I wouldn't say it's enough to really get in the way. For desktop work I'd still have to go with the HP due to the 4:3 aspect ratio and the flickering on the WFP, but if I get very lucky and get a 2007FP without issues, it seems like it'd be the best of both worlds. Sigh...

Well, indeed, it does look like there are some problems.

My ViewSonic VP930b also had easily visible FRC effects on some colors. Gray would look like it was a swarm. Uniformity was poor as well. I realized it was only 6-bit+FRC instead of true 8-bit. Same case with the Dell 2007 series. Unfortunately, and particularly with monitors from the big PC companies (Dell, HP, Gateway), issues like these are common.

I'm afraid the only option left for you after the 2007FP, for a 20" S-IPS, is the NEC LCD2090UXi.

There's also the LCD2070NX, but its performance doesn't turn any heads. Response time is quite slow.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl.../display/20inch_4.html

The LCD2090UXi is very expensive at $750+. So, at that point, if you were aiming for best value, the PX2611W and the DoubleSight 26" LCD should be on your list if a bigger size was a possibility.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...4002138&Tpk=LCD2090UXi

Unfortunately, I don't know about input lag on the LCD2090UXi. But it has been confirmed numerous times that the PX2611W has 1 frame or less of lag.

I hope you find the right LCD eventually.

 

[redlinez33]

NM, the 24" LG W2452T does get darker at the top half of the screen, either that or the bottom half gets lighter

The planar looks great, but its to bright and I dont own a good calibrator (spyder2express just doesnt cut it)...................... sigh.

 

[redlinez33]

Looks like the DoubleSight DS-263N is the EXACT same monitor as the planar, except the power light color is different and the joystick is more of a knob.

For $200 less, its obvious.... I would pay/keep the Planar if it was $700 instead of $900.

 

[Tonish]

Ok I first want to thank everyone that contributed to this thread, especially xtknight. I have found it helpful and very informative. Now that I have that out of the way I must say I hate you all for completely confusing me So far I have gone from just looking for a good 22" to 24" and only wanting to spend around $ 300-500 to looking at spending $900 on a Planar PX2611. I read the OP and started at around page 150ish which was the start of January and I have read it to the end. In that time I have gone from getting the BenQ T241W, to the NEC 2470WNXBK, to thinking maybe i would just go with the BenQ G2400, to debating maybe i should just settle for average and get the VX2435WM. Then Buck Armstrong over there had to go and start the whole Planar PX2611 thing. That leads us to the brand new confusing option of the Double Sight DS-263N.

So here I sit completely confused and baffled at the options that lay before me. So maybe you guys could help me make up my mind. A little background info to help you out, I am running a Dual Core System OC to 3.18 GHZ and I have a newly purchased 8800 GT arriving tomorrow. I have been fighting the LCD wave for quite some time, I have always disliked all the negatives to the LCD but my Viewsonic 21" G810 series CRT is showing signs of its age and another CRT is just too hard to find. Coming into this thread my number one concern was image blur/lag as that as far as I knew was the biggest fault of lcd's. Now I have to rethink that and have a new list which is from greatest to least: Input Lag, Color Distortion, Image blur/lag, Screen Distractions, Color Accuracy, Cost, size. I am a gamer, I always have been. My system is nothing more then a glorified X-Box. I used to have a Sony Trinitron monitor because they had the best clarity and with text not much beat it back in the day. I ended up with the viewsonic when I was setting up someone else's computer and saw the vivid colors of the viewsonic blow the trinitron out of the water. Needless to say I switched monitors with him.

So to summarize I do not want to experience input lag , but at the same time I want a good picture. The part I am confused about is everyone seems to hate TN panels due to their viewing angles, but as I read the reviews on VA panels I hear those have color distortion. I know I do not want one side of my monitor a different color then the other. Then of course all the IPS panels are expensive and I read they do not do black as well. I do not have much of a reference to go from as the only panels I have seen are TN's. I do plan on going to the store to try to get a grasp on the short comings of all of them. In relation to each other what does one type of panel have over the other? I know TN's have less lag, VA's do black better, and IPS has the best viewing angles but in comparison to one another how are they? Are IPS panels better at black then TN's?

So what would you guys recommend? I see my current options in no particular order are the BenQ FP241W, BenQ G2400W, Viewsonic VX2435, Planar PX2611W, & the Double Sight DS-263N. Last question do you think it is worth trying the Double Sight DS-263N? I really do not want to spend $900 on the PX2611W & $700 does seem more reasonable. If I spend $500 + dollars on a monitor I expect it to last and not be obsolete in a year.

Thanks for any help give and thanks again for all the great information.

 

[j0j081]

Originally posted by: airjrdn

Originally posted by: j0j081

Originally posted by: airjrdn
I just brought home a Samsung 2232BW and unfortunately, games (UT3/Crysis) were still blurry. I returned it to BB (no restocking fee on monitors) and went to CC and picked up a 2253BW. Gaming/blurryness they seem the same to me.

I'm contemplating trying the 2232GW, but I'm sure it'll be blurry too.

I just wanted to give a heads up to any gamers looking to try these monitors, because CC does charge the 15% restocking fee on monitors. They consider going from the 2253BW to the 2232GW an upgrade (because it's more expensive) and will waive the fee, but if you wanted to go back to the 2253BW, you'd have to pay it on the more expensive monitor.

where you playing at the lcds native resolution? maybe you mean ghosting but neither of those monitors should have that either. I used to have the 2232BW so I would know.

Yes, 1680x1050.

There's blurring, it's evident enough for my wife (non gamer) to see. Since I've seen the exact same thing with 4 different 2ms monitors now, on two different PC's of mine, I'm certain it's not a "bad monitor".

The machine it's hooked to currently is a quad core 2.66Ghz running at 3.4Ghz with 4G of RAM, and dual 768M 8800GTX's in SLI. It's hooked up via DVI.

I think that might just be how all LCDs are. I guess most people just learn to live with it. If you compared it to an lcd from a couple years ago though you'd notice a huge improvement.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Originally posted by: j0j081
I think that might just be how all LCDs are. I guess most people just learn to live with it. If you compared it to an lcd from a couple years ago though you'd notice a huge improvement.

I agree... LCDs are still at the point where people who are sensitive to ghosting will notice it in practically every non-CRT monitor. However, as a former CRT-lover, I believe that the positives of owning a LCD now outweigh the negatives, and I don't think I'd switch back except in rare cases (ex. properly displaying weird aspect ratios for some old games).

 

[DoctorM]

Hey.
ATI's latest drivers finally allowed me to update my drivers (for the last year they haven't worked with my video card).

Now unfortunately anytime the catalyst control center loads it overrides the color profiles I have set for my monitor.

Anyone know a way to prevent ATI's color controls from reactivating themselves?

 

[Tasiin]

Originally posted by: xtknight
My ViewSonic VP930b also had easily visible FRC effects on some colors. Gray would look like it was a swarm. Uniformity was poor as well. I realized it was only 6-bit+FRC instead of true 8-bit. Same case with the Dell 2007 series. Unfortunately, and particularly with monitors from the big PC companies (Dell, HP, Gateway), issues like these are common.

The 2007s are 6-bit? I thought nearly all S-IPS displays were 8-bit.

I looked at the 2090UXi a bit ago, but the price is just too high for such a small screen. I'm not really willing to go significantly over $400. And as you said, the amount of input lag is unknown. The 2070NX is definitely just too old. If it used the same panel as the LP2065/2007FP though, that would've been my first choice.

It seems like most new S-IPS displays are going to be 26" or larger, but I just don't have the room for that on my desk, and again it's too expensive. I'd still like to be able to use my CRT occasionally, and it's already a tight squeeze with just a 20" LCD on my desk as well.

Most people seem to agree that if you're not happy with S-IPS you won't be happy with much else, so I think you're probably right about me being nearly out of options. From what I've read about VA, I think I'd actually prefer a TN.

Oddly enough, I still find my 15" Sony TN to be more comfortable than any IPS display or my CRT for simple tasks like web browsing, though that could easily be due to the high pixel pitch or the much nicer anti-glare on it. I'm sure that the viewing angles and poor color reproduction on a larger TN would be bothersome however, and if I wanted to avoid getting a widescreen I'd have to settle for another non-standard aspect ratio (19" 5:4). Probably not even worth considering.

I think I'll take another day to consider it, then order the 2007FP if nothing looks better. It seems to almost be a given that it'll be better than the LP2065, if it doesn't have any issues like the flickering. I think I may actually have a good chance of getting S-IPS with the latest revision too, and I'd have a chance to compare it directly with the LP2065 if I order soon.

 

[DoctorM]

Ooh, I've been meaning to ask. Has anyone who has calibrated their monitor with a Spyder or similar device compared their profiles to the digitalversus (http://www.digitalversus.com/article-424.html) profiles?

I'm mostly interested in how the vx2435wm profile stacks up, but I'd also like to hear about other monitor findings as well.

 

[muppet22]

Originally posted by: muppet22
i'm undecided on the input lag so far..
when i do those reaction speed tests online i take about 285-300ms, instead of 185-200ms

ok i was wrong about this..the test i used on this monitor was from a different website than when i tested my 906bw. after testing it with http://www.humanbenchmark.com/...reactiontime/index.php , i'm averaging about 225ms.
i'll test them side by side when i get a chance..

 

[jae]

what about the hannsg hg-216? newegg

most of the reviews ive come across have been great but no pro reviews found yet

 

[Mski0032]

my school offers the VideoSeven D22W12-N6 for 250$... anyone know the panel type on this model???? or have a decent review? I have found little to nothing.

because I won't have to wait/pay for delivery I'll probably just get this, but I'd at least like to know the panel type prior... nothing like spending $250 & being disappointed.


[ed.] I went & checked it out. Its definitely the TN panel and its a shitty monitor... so looks like i'll be ordering online

 

[afuturestrader]

Very informative thread. I am replacing some 19 inch CRT's (Viewsonic GS790). Being new to LCS's a few questions come to mind.

My monitor use is mostly standard office - web browsing, email, IM, documents etc. Because I use multiple monitors to increase productivity my hope is to keep the per monitor price to around $400 or less.

Therefore after review my thinking is to buy a few 20 inch standard aspect S-IPS monitors with an anti-glare screen - (and hope to win the panel lottery).

1. Any better suggestions? Would the HP L0265 be a or the top choice?

2. A second thought I had - Put two 20 inch monitors side by side in portrait mode for a 2400x1600 resolution. Would this not be very close to the functional equivalent of a 30 inch monitor (2560 x 1600) for less money? Any fault in this logic?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: EEsRULE
I noticed redlinez33 expressed some potential buyer's remorse over on hardforum.com about spending $200 more for the PLANAR PX2611W over the DoubleSight DS-263N:

Originally Posted by redlinez33
Same panel as the Planar 26"? Crap just ordered the planar, watch this be better and $200 cheaper :-\

I was wondering what owners of either one of these monitors thought about them? Since they're the "same panel as the LCD2690WUXi without the extra viewing angle compensation film", $699.99 may be a real bargain (compared to $1200 for the NEC LCD2690WUXi).

I'm still apprehensive about buying a TN panel (BenQ G2400W or Samsung 245BW). Especially after having seen that YouTube video review of the 245BW, and how bad the viewing angle is vertically. Four years ago when I bought the Samsung 213T, the consensus of reviews I read back then was that TN panels were to be avoided.

The Planar has a much better warranty (3 years, 2-day replacement, paid shipping both ways), and is apparently more ergonomically adjustable (Toasty said the Doublesight only tilts). Personally, I'd rather have the Planar because I've never even heard of Doublesight and their website doesn't inspire confidence. On the other hand, I bought the Planar before the Doublesight 26" was available, so I didn't even have to consider the $200 price difference!

I'd recommend either of them over any non-IPS, especially for $699. For not much more than the standard 24" VA, you get a 26" IPS without all the wierdo issues like color shift, input lag, inverse ghosting, etc.

 

[SCCA Racer X]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Another 26" S-IPS. I actually laughed when the actual panel was shown in the specs. How ridiculous. AND LG Philips 8-bit is actually advertised. Maybe they are really catching on.

Not a bad deal at $700 also! Just haven't seen any reviews yet. Wide gamut, I believe. Unlisted on their site as of now.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...=DoubleSight%2bDS-263N
...

You don't sound completely enthusiastic about developments which I consider a huge step in the right direction. I assume I'm just unable to interperet sarcasm over the net, and you're in shock from actually seeing what discerning buyers have been wishing for.

Declaring the panel type, and even naming the panel model, while lowering the price point by $200, is nothing short of a hat trick. I can only hope for this to become a full-on trend.

FYI, I got another Soyo 24" P-MVA monitor for $300 from OfficeMax. I really wanted to hold out for a nice >=24" IPS panel, but after being in the market for about a year, I decided that I just wasn't going to come up with ~$900 for the "low budget" Planar, or settle for a relatively pricey 20" HP. I even played the lottery (not the panel lottery, the real one), and bid on ebay, but no luck. So, I made my move. I own two now (two for less than the price of one IPS monitor!), and I still recommend it as the best bang-for-buck at the moment.

I am relieved to not have to move my 21" CRT every weekend between the two cities I live in, it can stay in one place now. No more funky magnetic special effects from my speakers, and my desk is usable for a change.

So I am out of the market for now. I hope that when I re-enter, there will be substantial changes for the better. But one thing I hope remains the same is this awesome forum! This is where I'll come to learn about the state of the art. Maybe by that time it won't even be called the LCD thread, but named for something which transcends the limitations of the LCD. No matter, xtknight, you've got the winning formula.

Thanks to everyone for making this a first-class thread. I plan to drop by from time to time to see what's new.

 

[Buck Armstrong]

The Doublesight 26" is finally on their website. I just read the product description, and there are a few differences between the Planar and the Doublesight:

- The Planar has a better warranty: 3 years, 2-day replacement, paid shipping both ways, with a 3 dead/stuck pixels policy vs. Doublesight's 3 years limited with 6 dead/stuck pixels.

- The Planar is height, tilt, and swivel adjustable. The Doublesight only tilts. From photos its clear they have a different stand.

- The Doublesight apparently has built-in speakers. The Planar does not.

- The Doublesight is $150-200 cheaper.

Like I said, I'd rather have the Planar because I like the 2-day replacement and prepaid shipping, adjustable height is important to me, and I don't need the speakers. Regardless, $699 is a steal for a 26" IPS, and anyone considering a 24"-27" VA and/or not wanting to spend the money for the Planar should probably take a hard look at one of these...

 

[redlinez33]

ya planar isnt technically worth it, but I already have it. I called them up to get an exchange so I could try to get one without any backlight bleeding and I actually talked to an AMERICAN. WTF is with that? I am suppose to be talking to someone I cant understand.

Guess it was nice for once.....

 

[redlinez33]

ohh. Look at the doublesights PDF for the monitor.

The monitor screen may be raised or lowered and tilted (-5 to 40 degree).
To raise or lower the monitor screen, place hands on each side of the
monitor screen and lift or lower to the desired height as shown in the
right gure.


I guess it does raise and lower.

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: redlinez33
ya planar isnt technically worth it, but I already have it. I called them up to get an exchange so I could try to get one without any backlight bleeding and I actually talked to an AMERICAN. WTF is with that? I am suppose to be talking to someone I cant understand.

Guess it was nice for once.....

Why didn't you just RMA through the retailer???

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: redlinez33
ohh. Look at the doublesights PDF for the monitor.

The monitor screen may be raised or lowered and tilted (-5 to 40 degree).
To raise or lower the monitor screen, place hands on each side of the
monitor screen and lift or lower to the desired height as shown in the
right gure.

I guess it does raise and lower.

I just saw that; the website description specifically says its only adjustable for tilt, but the manual says its also height adjustable. Toasty said he couldn't get it to go up or down...so its apparently not clear yet.

I guess we'll have to wait until someone is brave enough to crank on theirs hard to find out...

 

[redlinez33]

Why? Is the retailers better? Dell wouldnt have it instock for nobody knows how long.

 

[Buck Armstrong]

According to Toasty, the Doublesight does not have speakers, and is not height adjustable. You'd think either the website or the manual would be correct, or at least match each other's specs....