[Retired] The LCD Thread

[Hairydude]

To the above poster, i just read the first post fully it was helpful. However, i'm still puzzled when it comes down to specific monitors as most if not all of them have mixed reviews. I only request a list or the best monitor for my uses at the budget i currently have .

 

[muppet22]

Originally posted by: Hairydude
The g2400w is £250, my budget allows me to purchase the likes of the Dell 24 WFP, BenQ FP241W, and a few others.. However I'm puzzled and really don't know which monitor or make to purchase.

besides this there is also the doublesight ds-263n (i have one) which is pretty good for gamers and uses IPS technology..although this may not be available much outside the US. there is also the Hazro HZ26W which i believe uses the same panel

 

[Hairydude]

Thanks for ur help muppet22, but I'm more into a 24" monitor a decent one at least

 

[muppet22]

25.5" is pretty close to 24"..and they both run the same native resolution

 

[Hairydude]

Hows the BenQ FP241W 24 like? Any problems with it? ghosting issues, etc? Also, uhm... Does TN mean when u look at the monitor from the left or the right it turns black?

 

[muppet22]

no..not black

these may help:
http://www.digitalversus.com/d...8&mo2=141&p2=1562&ph=1
http://www.digitalversus.com/d...8&mo2=141&p2=1562&ph=1
i didn't realize until now that the fp241w isn't a tn! i can't handle the amount of delay that the fp241w has..but i play multiplayer games somewhat competitively

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: seymsag
I googled a bit and found out that what I am experiencing is color banding.

To find out if this is caused by my lcd I downloaded and viewed these images on my laptop(with benq lcd connected to it of course):

http://home.freeuk.com/jackdod...anger_MBP_C2D_test.jpg

http://home.freeuk.com/jackdod...ammut_MBP_C2D_test.jpg

The image was perfect; then I installed those two images to my playstation which is con
nected through hdmi, image was still perfect.This makes me question if these images are really a good way to see if there is any banding, any other way if I can test if banding is caused by monitor?

Well, the monitor may adjust the image depending on what's displayed, but those test cases probably would have shown it.

I don't really know what the deal is with your PS3. Doesn't make any sense to me but a photo of the problem may help me identify it.

Originally posted by: devilchrist
I have the 24" LG flatron LCD and I love it. Only reason I chose this over the Samsung 245BW is because every review said it was not a TN panel.

I don't see it on your list though. It's s much better than the Samsung and Dell (I've had both)


It comes with DVI to HDMI cable.

GOOD:
Great colors,
Very fast, no input lag,
Very little ghosting.
8-bit panel (As far as i've researched)
Not TN

BAD:
not alot of connection options,
only 2 USB ports
RBG, HDMI, S-Cable
RGB connection just plain suck. Lot of flicker and dithering.

Are you speaking of the LG L246WP? Come to think of it, there's not really a specific reason it's not up there. X-Bit mentioned the limited brightness range/accuracy of the L245WP although this problem may be minor.

I also think the built-in scaling of the L246WP has some issues (although ditto with the VX2435wm).

 

[Doctor W]

Just got my DS-263N. Ordered from buy.com and it shipped from Carol Stream, IL. It does have the polarizer.

Unfortunately it also has three bad pixels. One is just a dead subpixel, which I care not at all, but the other two are side-by-side, about 4" off the bottom and 3" from the left. It's some kind of polarizer defect, as they appear 'hot' but not full-on, and the color changes with viewing angle. Could be one of those holes letting the backlight come through. Not sure if it's worth bothering doublesight but maybe I'll give 'em a call on monday just to see what they say. If I decide not to mess with it I'll just deal with it until the warranty wears off, then open the panel and black it out

Typical very slight BLB near the top-right, and something about the significantly larger pixel pitch (compared to my old 20" 1600x1200) makes ClearType look just wrong.

 

[seymsag]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: seymsag
I googled a bit and found out that what I am experiencing is color banding.

To find out if this is caused by my lcd I downloaded and viewed these images on my laptop(with benq lcd connected to it of course):

http://home.freeuk.com/jackdod...anger_MBP_C2D_test.jpg

http://home.freeuk.com/jackdod...ammut_MBP_C2D_test.jpg

The image was perfect; then I installed those two images to my playstation which is con
nected through hdmi, image was still perfect.This makes me question if these images are really a good way to see if there is any banding, any other way if I can test if banding is caused by monitor?

Well, the monitor may adjust the image depending on what's displayed, but those test cases probably would have shown it.

I don't really know what the deal is with your PS3. Doesn't make any sense to me but a photo of the problem may help me identify it.

I dont have a good camera to show color problem I have, however I did a little more testing with my monitor and it showed severe color banding with this ( http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9104/ahdiu2.jpg ) image ,both on my laptop and my ps3 ,this image showed some color banding even on my crt.

HDR lightening creates more colors than the colors of those two images I posted earlier maybe ,thus my monitor cant handle?

 

[Deinonych]

Originally posted by: Doctor W
Just got my DS-263N. Ordered from buy.com and it shipped from Carol Stream, IL. It does have the polarizer.

Unfortunately it also has three bad pixels. One is just a dead subpixel, which I care not at all, but the other two are side-by-side, about 4" off the bottom and 3" from the left. It's some kind of polarizer defect, as they appear 'hot' but not full-on, and the color changes with viewing angle. Could be one of those holes letting the backlight come through. Not sure if it's worth bothering doublesight but maybe I'll give 'em a call on monday just to see what they say. If I decide not to mess with it I'll just deal with it until the warranty wears off, then open the panel and black it out

Typical very slight BLB near the top-right, and something about the significantly larger pixel pitch (compared to my old 20" 1600x1200) makes ClearType look just wrong.

Buy.com doesn't have a dead pixel policy, so it might be worth your while to do a defective exchange. I exchanged a display that had one stuck pixel and they did it, no questions asked. My only (minor) complaint about their exchange policy is that they don't cross ship -- the return has to be received before they'll send out a new product.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: seymsag
I dont have a good camera to show color problem I have, however I did a little more testing with my monitor and it showed severe color banding with this ( http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9104/ahdiu2.jpg ) image ,both on my laptop and my ps3 ,this image showed some color banding even on my crt.

HDR lightening creates more colors than the colors of those two images I posted earlier maybe ,thus my monitor cant handle?

I don't get that much banding on that pic with a professional monitor but even with a consumer IPS I get a good, easily-noticeable-by-anyone amount.

It's just due to the way the image was made. The pixel brightnesses change too slightly and the bands of color are too wide. Not necessarily a fault with your monitor. As you can see, you CRT does it too. I can only imagine how bad that pic is on a TN.

I'm still surprised you see it that badly with your PS3. It's not like most real world material exposes flaws this bad. You seemed to imply the laptop and BenQ exhibited the same amount of banding on that picture?

At first I thought you were talking about huge changes of color like seeing blue instead of red?

Either way that image is no more HDR than anything else you see on your screen. The banding here is caused by poor choice of color by the author, to which the human eye is sensitive. Nothing in the RGB notation takes into account eye sensitivity (unless you calibrate to L* linear space), so RGB(250,50,250)->RGB(250,51,250) may be a lot more noticeable than RGB(50,250,250)->RGB(51,250,250) (just an example).

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Hairydude
Hello,

I am a new comer as you can see, I made this account to plead for your advice on which 24" monitor I should get. I wish to upgrade from my current 19" Dell monitor, to a 24" wide screen monitor. The main uses for the new monitor will be gaming, watching movies, and the usual web surfing. After researching the 24" market, i am puzzled and left in confusion.

I'm no expert in the technicalities of monitors. Is the TN Panel good enough? Does it display good, crisp colours? What are the disadvantages of having a TN Panel monitor? Is the Dell 24WFP really that bad for gaming? Is the BenQ G2400W best choice for me?

I've just came across the BenQ FP241W 24" monitor, what are your thoughts on this one? And finally, what would you recommend me to buy? my budget is around £400.
Thanks for any help in advance.

The FP241W may actually be the best idea for you. I assume you're outside of the US as it is discontinued here. Although, it has blackout issues there are solutions online for this I believe. I am not sure if BenQ will give you a refund for this problem or not.

The Dell 2408WFP is not that bad for gaming, no. It is also a decent choice. I will probably add it to the Multimedia recommendations list.

The 2408WFP would deliver more vibrant colors (although in a sense less accurate) due to the different type of backlight used. The G2400W and FP241W are standard gamut.

The G2400W is good but a TN panel gives you restrictive viewing angle. See the OP for details (and you were explained the effects a few posts below).

If you take gaming seriously then the TN panel may be the only choice for absolute low lag and latency. But the other monitors will deliver great colors and sufficient gaming performance. The TN panel won't be as vibrant.

I'd go with the 2408WFP if I were in your situation.

 

[SLU Aequitas]

Hey xtknight (or anyone else for that matter). Was just browsing the Hot Deals forum, and Cerpin Taxt just posted what I believe to be a very nice deal on a 24" Westinghouse L2410NM from Sam's Club. Is there any reason why this monitor would be at such a low price (i.e. what are the trade-offs) considering it's not a TN panel?

Thanks for your time!

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: SLU Aequitas
Hey xtknight (or anyone else for that matter). Was just browsing the Hot Deals forum, and Cerpin Taxt just posted what I believe to be a very nice deal on a 24" Westinghouse L2410NM from Sam's Club. Is there any reason why this monitor would be at such a low price (i.e. what are the trade-offs) considering it's not a TN panel?

Thanks for your time!

I think the L2410NM is a TN panel actually due to misadvertising.

 

[macsolu]

I've tried hyperlinking with several of the displays recommended in the lists on page one, only to end up with NewEgg pages indicating an item that has been discontinued/is no longer available. I'm gently suggesting a refresh of posted links.

 

[10e]

Hazro has a decent 24" version of that same monitor, with the same quality IPS panel, but right now their monitors are hard to find outside of UK/Europe. In fact, I don't think anyone here in North America has them. The IPS market is a bit stale right now unfortunately. The DS-263N is a nice monitor from the sounds of it.

Originally posted by: Hairydude
Thanks for ur help muppet22, but I'm more into a 24" monitor a decent one at least

Yeah I knew it was you from some of the 275T+ posts that were pretty similar between here and HF. I misrepresented the T241W earlier. It is a TN monitor with some speakers, and limited connectivity. It probably does use the same panel as the G2400W but at least it has a height adjustable stand.

The V2400W is pretty nice as well. Very slim, but again it shares the same connectivity of the G2400W, and quite possibly the same panel with an added "dynamic" contrast. This DC stuff makes me ill. Give me the real contrast ratio.

Originally posted by: muppet22
hey 10e - this is erich from hardforum - do you have any thoughts on the benq V2400W? it's supposed to come out later this month and has similar specs to the G, but of course i don't know how well it will actually compare

And yea, the FP241VW/W/WZ are all A-MVA panels.

Regards,

10e

 

[seymsag]

Originally posted by: xtknight
I'm still surprised you see it that badly with your PS3. It's not like most real world material exposes flaws this bad. You seemed to imply the laptop and BenQ exhibited the same amount of banding on that picture?

At first I thought you were talking about huge changes of color like seeing blue instead of red?

Let me sum things up a little;problem occurs when I play games while my BenQ x2200w is connected to ps3 via hdmi.I dont know if the color corruption is caused by my ps3 or my benq monitor so I connected my benq both to my laptop and my ps3 to see if ps3 was the problem and all images gave same results on both my ps3 and laptop.

I am not an expert in this matter so what I am experiencing may not be color banding.What you tought at first is right.I will try to explain it alittle more with pics I took with a mobile phone( sorry for the low quality,you may need to scale down the image to see the problem):

1)Gran Turismo: (the color of the car is not important) when there are shadows on car which changes the color of the car there is color corruption; a shadow makes some part of the car black ,around this black there are strange colors(red,pink,green,etc.): http://img502.imageshack.us/im...905/05042008259yw0.jpg Look at the down right part of the car:Color doesnt change from black to tones of gray smoothly.

2)Team Ninja logo: http://img502.imageshack.us/im...139/05042008256br2.jpg trnasaction from white to black is not smooth.

What puzzles me is that if the problem is caused by benq, it shouldn't be able to give satisfying results in test images and if it is caused by ps3, it shouldnt give satisfying results when I view test images by installing them on ps3.

I cant say if benq cant handle tones of gray because:
1)In gran turismo changing the color of the car doesnt change color corruption.
2)On gray scale test images benq gave satisfying results both with laptop and ps3.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: seymsag

Originally posted by: xtknight
I'm still surprised you see it that badly with your PS3. It's not like most real world material exposes flaws this bad. You seemed to imply the laptop and BenQ exhibited the same amount of banding on that picture?

At first I thought you were talking about huge changes of color like seeing blue instead of red?

Let me sum things up a little;problem occurs when I play games while my BenQ x2200w is connected to ps3 via hdmi.I dont know if the color corruption is caused by my ps3 or my benq monitor so I connected my benq both to my laptop and my ps3 to see if ps3 was the problem and all images gave same results on both my ps3 and laptop.

I am not an expert in this matter so what I am experiencing may not be color banding.What you tought at first is right.I will try to explain it alittle more with pics I took with a mobile phone( sorry for the low quality,you may need to scale down the image to see the problem):

1)Gran Turismo: (the color of the car is not important) when there are shadows on car which changes the color of the car there is color corruption; a shadow makes some part of the car black ,around this black there are strange colors(red,pink,green,etc.): http://img502.imageshack.us/im...905/05042008259yw0.jpg Look at the down right part of the car:Color doesnt change from black to tones of gray smoothly.

2)Team Ninja logo: http://img502.imageshack.us/im...139/05042008256br2.jpg trnasaction from white to black is not smooth.

What puzzles me is that if the problem is caused by benq, it shouldn't be able to give satisfying results in test images and if it is caused by ps3, it shouldnt give satisfying results when I view test images by installing them on ps3.

I cant say if benq cant handle tones of gray because:
1)In gran turismo changing the color of the car doesnt change color corruption.
2)On gray scale test images benq gave satisfying results both with laptop and ps3.

Thanks for the photos. This helps so much.

This problem occurs when the wrong gamma correction is specified and you're using a compressed image with a lower dynamic range.

You can try adjusting "gamma" or "brightness" on the PS3 (or the game). I don't even know if you can do this? Or maybe you can also do it on the monitor. The PS3 settings would be the first thing to try, though.

In short, it is caused by the game. That's why your PS3 can show images fine.

Make sure you're in Standard SensEye mode.

 

[10e]

The L2410NM is actually an 8-bit MVA panel made by CMO (ChiMei Optoelectronics). Westinghouse is just a name as the entire monitor is built by CMO. It has HDMI, VGA, and component connections.

The only caveats of this display is a slight buzzing noise and some people with screen door effect on the right side. My biggest complaint is the 1 year warranty.

HDMI does not do power save, but VGA does. I have a feeling that this display was targeted as a multi-functional monitor where PC is over VGA and consumer video devices are displayed over HDMI and component.

-HDMI and component display no overscan using video sources unless you select "zoomed"

-All outputs can do 1:1 mapping of 1080p (1920x1080 over VGA) without issue.

-HDMI with a PC can do 1920x1200 perfectly and is very intelligent. It will auto-detect PC and video sources on-the-fly and adjusts the OSD accordingly.

-Has slightly crushed blacks with PC over HDMI, but not with PS3. All other ports do not crush dark details

-Has 2 to 3 frames input lag due to a MUCH better than average scaler.

-If you can get it for a good price it will exceed expectations.

- Has some (if not THE) most consistent vertical viewing angles I've ever seen on a MVA monitors. Has typical MVA horizontal contrast shift.

If you need any more information head over to HardForums and look up the L2410NM thread.

The L2610NW is the new TN-based 26" version of this monitor and is absolute garbage whereas the L2410NM has reached almost cult status due to bargain price and capability recently.

Regards,

10e

Originally posted by: SLU Aequitas
Hey xtknight (or anyone else for that matter). Was just browsing the Hot Deals forum, and Cerpin Taxt just posted what I believe to be a very nice deal on a 24" Westinghouse L2410NM from Sam's Club. Is there any reason why this monitor would be at such a low price (i.e. what are the trade-offs) considering it's not a TN panel?

Thanks for your time!

:sun:

 

[10e]

You are experiencing color banding. Unfortunately that is 100% the PS3.

I am not extremely impressed with the graphics prowess of the PS3 in general, based on my experiences. I have both consoles, and the PS3 is a let down graphically due to huge, defined bands of color in things like light halos and shadow details showing weird color smearing exactly like the smear I see in the RSX in your GT Prologue photo.

I have seen these effects on more than 5 monitors on this particular game, as well as others. It's almost like the PS3 has a limited color palette when it's playing games.

I am thinking though, that your monitor may be set a bit too bright.

Also which resolution are you using the PS3 on? 1080i/p or 720p?

Regards and hope that helps,

10e

Originally posted by: seymsag

Originally posted by: xtknight
I'm still surprised you see it that badly with your PS3. It's not like most real world material exposes flaws this bad. You seemed to imply the laptop and BenQ exhibited the same amount of banding on that picture?

At first I thought you were talking about huge changes of color like seeing blue instead of red?

Let me sum things up a little;problem occurs when I play games while my BenQ x2200w is connected to ps3 via hdmi.I dont know if the color corruption is caused by my ps3 or my benq monitor so I connected my benq both to my laptop and my ps3 to see if ps3 was the problem and all images gave same results on both my ps3 and laptop.

I am not an expert in this matter so what I am experiencing may not be color banding.What you tought at first is right.I will try to explain it alittle more with pics I took with a mobile phone( sorry for the low quality,you may need to scale down the image to see the problem):

1)Gran Turismo: (the color of the car is not important) when there are shadows on car which changes the color of the car there is color corruption; a shadow makes some part of the car black ,around this black there are strange colors(red,pink,green,etc.): http://img502.imageshack.us/im...905/05042008259yw0.jpg Look at the down right part of the car:Color doesnt change from black to tones of gray smoothly.

2)Team Ninja logo: http://img502.imageshack.us/im...139/05042008256br2.jpg trnasaction from white to black is not smooth.

What puzzles me is that if the problem is caused by benq, it shouldn't be able to give satisfying results in test images and if it is caused by ps3, it shouldnt give satisfying results when I view test images by installing them on ps3.

I cant say if benq cant handle tones of gray because:
1)In gran turismo changing the color of the car doesnt change color corruption.
2)On gray scale test images benq gave satisfying results both with laptop and ps3.

 

[seymsag]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Thanks for the photos. This helps so much.

This problem occurs when the wrong gamma correction is specified and you're using a compressed image with a lower dynamic range.

You can try adjusting "gamma" or "brightness" on the PS3 (or the game). I don't even know if you can do this? Or maybe you can also do it on the monitor. The PS3 settings would be the first thing to try, though.

In short, it is caused by the game. That's why your PS3 can show images fine.

Make sure you're in Standard SensEye mode.

You are welcome, I should thank you for your time.

Playstation 3 has three settings in Display Setting section and none of the things you mention.These are: Cross Color Reduction Filter ,Rgb Full Range (hdmi), Super white.These dont effect the issue in any way.

I haven't seen gamma option in any game.And a lot of games dont have brightness setting.

X2200w's osd is very limited; there is no gamma adjustment option and brightness option only changes backlight.

Does this mean I am stuck with these odd colors in games?Any way to change settings through Windows Xp and installing them in x2200w's memory?

 

[SLU Aequitas]

Originally posted by: 10e
<snip>

Lol, I literally just came back from reading through the 26 pages of that thread...$300 for a 24" MVA panel is not bad at all...going to see if I can grab one from the Sam's Club about 1.5 hours away.

Thanks again!

 

[seymsag]

 

[jimwhitephotography]

I need a photo editing monitor and have a budget of about $500. I'm not hung up on this but don't want to spend $1,000. I predominately create inkjet prints using the adobe color gamut so cmyk accuracy is not really an issue. I calibrate so having a screen that responds well to calibration is a must. I'm in the U.S.

Other than wanting an ips panel I'm pretty much lost. This is a great resource here but way too much information.

 

[ericinho]

Originally posted by: shinobiobi

Originally posted by: ericinho

S-IPS wise there isn't much in the 21/22" category... and you are right... for the NEC 2190UX you fork out 900 EURO (!!!!) here in Holland, apart from the 20 sec response time (!).... In NEC PVA country there would be the NEC LCD2170NX... Eizo the S2231... but again... you pay S-IPS prices for a PVA panel...

you are right about this. for my recent lcd purchase, what i wanted an ips panel in the 22" market, but this was practically impossible to find, and i live in the US. you're probably going to either have to go 20" or 24" to find more options and cost effectiveness. 22" is just a TN haven right now for some reason.

I went to the store yesterday and in any case I do know i certainly don't want a 20" WS... too small... and if i would go for a 21" I guess i would prefer it to be a normal 4:3 screen as well. 22" does work well as a widescreen...

but which one...