[Retired] The LCD Thread

[burek]

I've been looking for a 22" PVA/MVA LCD and I noticed that NEC has a 22" AccuSync LCD224WXM with a viewing angle of 176/176 which says to me that it uses something other than a TN... but after looking at prad.de, tftcentral.co.uk and flatpanels.dk I couldn't find anything on the type of panel it uses.

Dell is selling it for $330

What do you guys think?

 

[kalrith]

Just got this from Newegg:

Dear Valued Newegg Customer,

Thank you for shopping at Newegg.com!

You recently requested auto-notification for item # N82E16824185007 -- MNTR DBSIGHT|LCD 26" 5MS DS-263N R.

We are pleased to inform you that, at the time of this mailing, the item you are looking for is in stock and available at our online store. To jump directly to the product's page, please click the link below (or copy & paste it into your internet browser):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...t.aspx?Item=24-185-007

Keeping you in the know,

Newegg Customer Care
http://www.newegg.com

Too bad I can't afford this right now, or I'd be all over it.

 

[b33g33]

Apologies in advance for the double post (posted at higher tree level previously)

I have a bit of a dilemma. I'm putting together a ~$2k gaming/photo editing system and I've got everything except for the monitor.

Since I went a little over budget with the hardware components, I cant really justify a 24" non-TN panel anymore. I'm capping off my monitor budget at or around $350

So, I'm trying to find a nice compromise 22" TN panel and have narrowed it down to 3 contestants:


Dell SP2208WFP

Dell 2208WFP (Ultrasharp)

ViewSonic VX2255wmb



I've left out the Samsungs mainly because I dont like the new styling. It might be a petty reason, but its important to me.

I like the Ultrasharp styling the best but keep worrying that the 3ms difference between that and the SP could make a difference in games. I'll be playing mostly FPS games like TF2 and COD4 with some RTSs thrown in (I know the viewsonic is also 5ms but it has better reviews than the UltraSharp).

I'm also a fairly advanced amateur digital photographer and will be using this monitor with Adobe Lightroom, Phototshop CS3 and Nikon Capture NX. I'm not too anal about getting a $1000+ monitor just for color fidelity because its just a hobby and not a source of income.

Vertical viewing angles are irrelevant since I will not be using the monitor for TV or movies much and will be sitting directly in front of it.

Your input is much appreciated. My system will be ready by Friday and I would hate to be without a monitor when it is

TIA

 

[TempletonPeck]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: TempletonPeck
I have a question about TN viewing angles.

With my L227WTG when watching widescreen/letterbox movies, the bottom black bar is very noticeably faded black, where the top is much darker.

This is only when the movie generates the bars to adjust for the aspect ratio. So two bars on either side of the movie, and then there's also black screen beyond the bars (the black screen is much darker).

I find it rather noticeably annoying.

I'm wondering if there is something wrong, or if there is a way to adjust for it?

If I take a jpeg picture with lots of black and move it in a window up and down the screen, aside from the slight change, the black stays nice and dark. So I don't understand why with a DVD movie, this bar is so faded at the bottom and not at the top.

This sounds like backlight bleeding. When you move a smaller image around however, the bleeding will not appear as prominent. When a large section of black is displayed, it may appear grayer.

It could be this, or compression artifacts or NTSC level of black (16). But the top bar should equal to bottom one, in either case (especially the NTSC spec).

Is there a chance you could get a high-exposure picture of this, though? I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean.

What are you using to watch movies with? And are the black bars in the movie itself or made by the program to scale? Or are you somehow using the monitor's scaling features? When you say on "either side" are you saying there are bars on the left and right? And what "black screen" beyond the bars do you mean? The bars do not fill the rest of the screen?

I think this is a viewing angle issue of a TN panel probably.

The bars are on the top and the bottom of the video, like a normal widescreen video.

I tried WMP, VLC player and Power DVD, it only happens with certain video. I noticed if I shift my position and slouch down that so I'm eye level with the bottom bar, it darkens to a sufficient level.

I think its that the DVD itself has more of a midtone black encoded into the video and it is just not able to render it so well?

edit: last night I set the screen to all black, it doesn't appear to be backlight bleed, because there is only a narrow strip at the edges, nowhere near where the bars are in the video playback.

 

[Tasiin]

I finally decided to check out some 22" TNs to see if I'd be any happier with one of those, but I haven't had much luck so far. I narrowed down my choices to the LG W2252TQ or Samsung 226BW since both have very low input lag and were thought to support at least a 75 Hz refresh rate without any frame skipping, and picked up the W2252TQ at Best Buy about a week ago.

I was not pleased with it at all however (I posted my thoughts here), and the Samsung 226BW has become nearly impossible to find since its discontinuation. The only store near me that still carries them is Circuit City, and they charge a 15% restocking fee on returns. Given the 226BW's panel lottery, it might not be worth bothering with.

Unfortunately, I think my Dell P992 CRT just bit the dust today so I'm now monitor-less and will have to find something quickly. It seems like my only options at this point in terms of LCDs are to either try the 226BW and take the restocking fee hit if I don't like it, a different 22" LCD, or possibly the 2007FP lottery if I get really desperate. The DoubleSight DS-263N is also a possibility if it ever comes back in stock, but I'm concerned about some of the reports of painfully high brightness levels, horizontal bands and the wide gamut.

If my experience with the W2252TQ is not typical of all 22" TNs, I think one of those might be my best bet for now. I don't need an incredibly good looking monitor, just something that's easy on the eyes and good for gaming/text that will tide me over until something better is released. It seems to me that a good quality TN should look better than my nearly six year old CRT did, anyhow. Many 22" panels also seem to support 75 Hz refresh rates, which is much better for gaming and a large part of why I became interested in them in the first place. However, I'm not sure what else I can try -- most of Samsung's new panels have copious amounts of input lag or other issues, the LG was awful, and many of the 22"s from other manufacturers are either very low end or relatively unknown. Hopefully someone will have some suggestions!

 

[CrabJuice]

tzero00: Could be some kind of shadowing. I went and saw another LG, the L226WTQ, in the store a while ago and there was definately something up with the text.

Tasiin: Sorry to hear that man. I was considering W2252TQ.

I'm starting to think that there is some sort of inherent problem with 22". Both from what I've seen and read what others have seen. Alot less unhappy buyers if you bump up to 24". Perhaps its the pixel-size, perhaps its overall better quality.. doesent matter.. I think 24" might be the way to go. Unless the very new Samsung T220 or maybe Benq G2200W has something new to offer the 22" lineup.

 

[DaveLessnau]

The driver (inf and icm) for the NEC MultiSync 20WMGX2 on the NEC site is dated 09/27/2005 and is not digitally signed. When I try to use this one under Vista x64, it complains about the lack of signature and if I then try to update the driver, it goes back to the Generic PnP Monitor driver (which is dated later and digitally signed). Is there any downside to using the "Generic PnP Monitor" as opposed to the monitor's specific name?

(Edited to be more pertinent to this thread)

 

[Tasiin]

Originally posted by: CrabJuice
Tasiin: Sorry to hear that man. I was considering W2252TQ.

I'm starting to think that there is some sort of inherent problem with 22". Both from what I've seen and read what others have seen. Alot less unhappy buyers if you bump up to 24". Perhaps its the pixel-size, perhaps its overall better quality.. doesent matter.. I think 24" might be the way to go. Unless the very new Samsung T220 or maybe Benq G2200W has something new to offer the 22" lineup.

It's entirely possible that I just got a bad one, I guess. As I said on my post at Hardforum, I have a hard time imagining how anyone could be pleased with it if they were all like that. Not really even a matter of being picky or not -- it was poor in comparison to just about every other cheap TN I've used. Doesn't say much for LG's quality control if it was defective though.

I was following the T220 as well, but was a bit disappointed by the the article at DigitalVersus on the T200. Seems like it has less input lag than the rest of Samsung's newer panels, but still considerably more than the 226BW. The T220 probably won't be any different, but I'm hoping a respectable site like BeHardware or TFT Central will do a review of it soon.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: tongqi2
I've been looking at LCD's for a long time and haven't found anything that I liked until I recently saw the comments on the 26 inch DoubleSight. I've been an avid CRT user (been on the same old Trinitron for 8 years) but I think I'm ready to make to switch because I just got a PS3 and I wanted an HD output source for it and was wondering if the DoubleSight would fit the bill? I plan on upgrading my computer later this summer and also wanted to know if whatever I upgrade to (probably GeForce 9xxx) will be able to smoothly run the relatively high resolution of the monitor. I primarily game on the computer and I know there are still many games that don't run too smoothly at 1920x1200 so I was considering if this is a good investment.

I think the DS will work with the PS3, but I'm never absolutely sure. You could check the HardForum thread for it or ask there to be sure. The main concern is it if supports interlacing or scales the signals properly. Sometimes devices simply have problems communicating. Video is not always a pure video signal, as often data is sent to determine resolution support, etc.

At least from what I've read it looks like it does support the PS3: http://www.hardforum.com/showt...ght=PS3#post1032264372

P.S. Here is ToastyX's review including notes about res/scaling support: http://www.hardforum.com/showp...032187513&postcount=36

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: citan x
I have been wondering. Supposedly, one of the advantages of displayport is that there is no conversion needed between the graphics card and the LCD panel. Does that mean there would be less input lag on these monitors if you used the display port? Has anybody tried it out?

As far as I know, only the two new Dell monitors supports Displayport. I don't know if any graphics card have it.

Well, DisplayPort supports an internal connection like LVDS, which is used in laptops to communicate from the graphics adapter to TFT panel.

That mainly means the graphics card can perform scaling and dithering before it sends the signal. I think ATI actually had a graphics solution that implemented an overdrive feature for LCDs, so yes it's possible. Would it eliminate input lag? I don't know, but if it buffered several frames then probably not. Apparently some LCDs can do overdrive with 0 input lag now, so we still don't know what the root issue is.

Right now I believe this initiative is geared more towards replacing traditional laptop LVDS interfaces with DisplayPort, not with making desktop monitors directly-driven only. It is very unlikely we will see this in use with desktop displays, save for some very special purpose ones?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Chunkee
Is this DoubleSight monitor comparable to the famed one?

http://www.provantage.com/doub...t-ds-243n~7DBLE00C.htm

jC

As jfallmann stated, this is a TN. No way.

 

[tongqi2]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: tongqi2
I've been looking at LCD's for a long time and haven't found anything that I liked until I recently saw the comments on the 26 inch DoubleSight. I've been an avid CRT user (been on the same old Trinitron for 8 years) but I think I'm ready to make to switch because I just got a PS3 and I wanted an HD output source for it and was wondering if the DoubleSight would fit the bill? I plan on upgrading my computer later this summer and also wanted to know if whatever I upgrade to (probably GeForce 9xxx) will be able to smoothly run the relatively high resolution of the monitor. I primarily game on the computer and I know there are still many games that don't run too smoothly at 1920x1200 so I was considering if this is a good investment.

I think the DS will work with the PS3, but I'm never absolutely sure. You could check the HardForum thread for it or ask there to be sure. The main concern is it if supports interlacing or scales the signals properly. Sometimes devices simply have problems communicating. Video is not always a pure video signal, as often data is sent to determine resolution support, etc.

At least from what I've read it looks like it does support the PS3: http://www.hardforum.com/showt...ght=PS3#post1032264372

P.S. Here is ToastyX's review including notes about res/scaling support: http://www.hardforum.com/showp...032187513&postcount=36

Thank you! This is exactly what I was looking for in regards to the PS3. I also wanted to confirm that the monitors being shipped out now all come with the polarizer, basically alleviating (at least somewhat, hopefully) the dark purple border problem?

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: tongqi2

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: tongqi2
I've been looking at LCD's for a long time and haven't found anything that I liked until I recently saw the comments on the 26 inch DoubleSight. I've been an avid CRT user (been on the same old Trinitron for 8 years) but I think I'm ready to make to switch because I just got a PS3 and I wanted an HD output source for it and was wondering if the DoubleSight would fit the bill? I plan on upgrading my computer later this summer and also wanted to know if whatever I upgrade to (probably GeForce 9xxx) will be able to smoothly run the relatively high resolution of the monitor. I primarily game on the computer and I know there are still many games that don't run too smoothly at 1920x1200 so I was considering if this is a good investment.

I think the DS will work with the PS3, but I'm never absolutely sure. You could check the HardForum thread for it or ask there to be sure. The main concern is it if supports interlacing or scales the signals properly. Sometimes devices simply have problems communicating. Video is not always a pure video signal, as often data is sent to determine resolution support, etc.

At least from what I've read it looks like it does support the PS3: http://www.hardforum.com/showt...ght=PS3#post1032264372

P.S. Here is ToastyX's review including notes about res/scaling support: http://www.hardforum.com/showp...032187513&postcount=36

Thank you! This is exactly what I was looking for in regards to the PS3. I also wanted to confirm that the monitors being shipped out now all come with the polarizer, basically alleviating (at least somewhat, hopefully) the dark purple border problem?

"Dark purple border problem?" I don't know about this, but the polarizer does solve a white glow, lowering the overall black level or making black look less "annoying".

I can't confirm it, but DoubleSight apparently confirmed that all new stock will have the A-TW polarizers (see a few posts back).

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: DaveLessnau
The driver (inf and icm) for the NEC MultiSync 20WMGX2 on the NEC site is dated 09/27/2005 and is not digitally signed. When I try to use this one under Vista x64, it complains about the lack of signature and if I then try to update the driver, it goes back to the Generic PnP Monitor driver (which is dated later and digitally signed). Is there any downside to using the "Generic PnP Monitor" as opposed to the monitor's specific name?

(Edited to be more pertinent to this thread)

I'd suggest you send NEC an e-mail about this (if you do in fact at all care). Otherwise, the generic driver is really just as good. That I know of, there is no way to disable driver signing in x64 anymore except by enabling slow debug, development mode.

Installing the 'driver' generally just places frequency ranges in your OS and a color profile, but usually the first is automatically done via data on the video cable and the second no one seems to care about anyway. Usually doesn't make a difference unless you use Photoshop and configure it properly.

 

[zod96]

Was wondering how good or bad are AU Optronics panels?

 

[CaptainJackSwallows]

Can someone give me an update on low input lag 19" monitors (Non WS)? I'm looking to get one.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: zod96
Was wondering how good or bad are AU Optronics panels?

When implemented decently, they can be very good.

The Samsung 226 series did not implement them properly and they ended up having RTC errors and poor default colors.

The BenQ FP241W implemented the AUO P-MVA panel properly and it was a great panel. The AUO 19" panels are the fastest around although few are still around these days, or I don't know what panel some of the fast 19"s use.

 

[zod96]

This would be on the samsung 2232GW

 

[xtknight]

Scaling support on various 1920x1200 panels: http://lcdresource.com/dsp_scale.htm

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: burek
I've been looking for a 22" PVA/MVA LCD and I noticed that NEC has a 22" AccuSync LCD224WXM with a viewing angle of 176/176 which says to me that it uses something other than a TN... but after looking at prad.de, tftcentral.co.uk and flatpanels.dk I couldn't find anything on the type of panel it uses.

Dell is selling it for $330

What do you guys think?

NEC uses 176/176 at 5:1 contrast (instead of 10:1) for a TN rating. Avoid.

You won't find a 22" VA other than the Lenovo L220X or Eizo S2231W (the Eizo S2201W is NOT VA, they pull the same trick as NEC).

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: b33g33
Apologies in advance for the double post (posted at higher tree level previously)

I have a bit of a dilemma. I'm putting together a ~$2k gaming/photo editing system and I've got everything except for the monitor.

Since I went a little over budget with the hardware components, I cant really justify a 24" non-TN panel anymore. I'm capping off my monitor budget at or around $350

Although it would have been good to spend more on the monitor, with exorbitant prices I can't blame you.

So, I'm trying to find a nice compromise 22" TN panel and have narrowed it down to 3 contestants:


Dell SP2208WFP

Dell 2208WFP (Ultrasharp)

ViewSonic VX2255wmb



I've left out the Samsungs mainly because I dont like the new styling. It might be a petty reason, but its important to me.

I like the Ultrasharp styling the best but keep worrying that the 3ms difference between that and the SP could make a difference in games. I'll be playing mostly FPS games like TF2 and COD4 with some RTSs thrown in (I know the viewsonic is also 5ms but it has better reviews than the UltraSharp).

I'm also a fairly advanced amateur digital photographer and will be using this monitor with Adobe Lightroom, Phototshop CS3 and Nikon Capture NX. I'm not too anal about getting a $1000+ monitor just for color fidelity because its just a hobby and not a source of income.

Vertical viewing angles are irrelevant since I will not be using the monitor for TV or movies much and will be sitting directly in front of it.

Your input is much appreciated. My system will be ready by Friday and I would hate to be without a monitor when it is

TIA

I just don't like the Dells since their response time always seems to be sloppy compared to other panels. The lack of pro reviews on the two Dell models also make me wary of recommending them.

The VX2255wmb is a decent LCD. It's still a TN.

http://prad.de/en/monitore/rev...c-vx2255wmb-part8.html

Gamma curve graph is not bad, ideal being y=x.

If you can, I would recommend putting down the money for an HP LP2065, most of which have been IPS lately. It's well worth it. Even if you end up with the AMVA you still have a better LCD.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...16824176053&Tpk=lp2065

Not to mention it's $345, $295 AR now. If you can deal with the slightly smaller size (but bigger overall screen area), then by all means do.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: TempletonPeck
I think this is a viewing angle issue of a TN panel probably.

The bars are on the top and the bottom of the video, like a normal widescreen video.

I tried WMP, VLC player and Power DVD, it only happens with certain video. I noticed if I shift my position and slouch down that so I'm eye level with the bottom bar, it darkens to a sufficient level.

I think its that the DVD itself has more of a midtone black encoded into the video and it is just not able to render it so well?

edit: last night I set the screen to all black, it doesn't appear to be backlight bleed, because there is only a narrow strip at the edges, nowhere near where the bars are in the video playback.

Yes I suspect it's embedded midtone black with TN viewing angle.

 

[noname4]

I got a samsung 2253bw that I am sending back for many reasons, I wont bore u with the long list, but to sum it up in one word, GARBAGE.

I need a quality 20in widescreen non glossy screen, smaller mostly for the lower pixel pitch. I am very sensitive to motion blur. I don't care at all about DC contrast.

I had a nec LCD1770gx that was rated at 8ms and never had a problem, but this samsung 2ms is horrible, I suspect panel make (CMO), and quality control issues from samsung.

Anyway I am now searching, and have found a couple that I am considering

NEC MultiSync LCD205WNXM-BK

LG L206WTY-BF

I don't know much about the LG, or what its color it is "rated" at.
I do know the NEC weighs 19lbs wile the LG is 10.1, the LG is 2ms, the NEC is 5. I guess it come down to what panels are in these, and internal build quality.

If anyone knows about these 2 please let me know, also If I have missed a good.

Thanks

Forgot to say I have also been looking at a HP LP2065 but don't know how bad the motion blur would be, It would be nice to have a non TN.

 

[TempletonPeck]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: TempletonPeck
I think this is a viewing angle issue of a TN panel probably.

The bars are on the top and the bottom of the video, like a normal widescreen video.

I tried WMP, VLC player and Power DVD, it only happens with certain video. I noticed if I shift my position and slouch down that so I'm eye level with the bottom bar, it darkens to a sufficient level.

I think its that the DVD itself has more of a midtone black encoded into the video and it is just not able to render it so well?

edit: last night I set the screen to all black, it doesn't appear to be backlight bleed, because there is only a narrow strip at the edges, nowhere near where the bars are in the video playback.

Yes I suspect it's embedded midtone black with TN viewing angle.

I'm not going to worry about it then.

Other than that, if nothing else happens between now and next Saturday (window to return), I think I've finally found an LCD monitor I'm going to keep.

Are the L227WTG's using LG panels?

The last LG I tried had terrible washed out colours, I believe it was an AUO panel.

This one is very nice in terms of colours.

 

[Josh7289]

Please, explain refresh rates on LCDs. My LCD monitor can accept signals with vertical refresh rates up to 75 Hz, so I'm sending a 1280 x 1024 75 Hz signal to it right now. In my understanding, this means the monitor is receiving 75 frames every second, and is displaying those 75 frames every second (ignoring the fact that slow response time could make it difficult to pick out each of those individual frames). Am I correct in this understanding?

(I'll ask another question if I can get this cleared up... )