[Retired] The LCD Thread

[move4ward]

Originally posted by: brencat

Originally posted by: xtknight
I haven't used the V2400W but I know the L227W is a great choice for a gamer. Not sure if he prefers glossy/wide gamut or standard/normal gamut.

xt, I finally saw an LG-L227WTG in person today and it is by far the best 22" monitor I have ever seen -- totally blows away anything Samsung has or used to have IMO, as well as most of their 24" TN-based line. I actually think the glossy screen adds to the vibrancy too, but it's not overbearing like with the HP 2408.

Only issue I have to resolve is whether or not something like the BenQ G2400WD at 24" would be worth stepping up to for an extra $100. That would be a sight-unseen purchase, however since no one carries BenQ anywhere near me. Any thoughts?

Harle posted a great deal on the Benq for a holiday sale that ends on December 23rd.


BenQ G2400WD is $270+30 shipping=$300, if you go in on the ncixus.com sale. There should be no tax. You can also put $13 for their Express Coverage-Dead Pixel Guarantee. It allows you up to 3 exchanges if you have a dead pixel.

http://www.ncixus.com/products...ture=BENQ&promoid=1145

This should make it about the same price as the LG-227WTG. Once you include shipping and taxes for the LG.

 

[you2]

I went ahead and ordered the HP 2065 from amazon. there was a post somewhere that indicated how to tell panel type - I'll drop a note with what panel type and what i think of it when it comes - if i can find the note. Hum. Yea

 

[brencat]

Originally posted by: move4ward
BenQ G2400WD is $270+30 shipping=$300, if you go in on the ncixus.com sale. There should be no tax. You can also put $13 for their Express Coverage-Dead Pixel Guarantee. It allows you up to 3 exchanges if you have a dead pixel.

http://www.ncixus.com/products...ture=BENQ&promoid=1145

This should make it about the same price as the LG-227WTG. Once you include shipping and taxes for the LG.

Yep, I know about the NCIX deal. But I can walk out of Best Buy today with the LG for $268 after tax today with their 30-day no hassle return policy... hmmm.

 

[move4ward]

Ok. If I am calculating right. That's a $32 difference.

Originally posted by: brencat

Yep, I know about the NCIX deal. But I can walk out of Best Buy today with the LG for $268 after tax today with their 30-day no hassle return policy... hmmm.

 

[whalespew]

So I am about to make the plunge from my CRT Sony g420, and buy my first LCD screen.

My panel requirements are:
First and foremost the screen will be used for photo / image editing
Second, my budget limit is around $600
Third, I am looking at something around 24+" in size

As far as I can tell this means an s-ips display, and the 24" HP LP2475w seems to be the best at this price point. The 25.5" Planar PX2611W is also rated highly in the forum, but is it worth the extra $200? Does anyone have any other suggestions for a photo editing panel?

 

[brencat]

Originally posted by: move4ward
Ok. If I am calculating right. That's a $32 difference.

Originally posted by: brencat

Yep, I know about the NCIX deal. But I can walk out of Best Buy today with the LG for $268 after tax today with their 30-day no hassle return policy... hmmm.

That's true. However, this would be a gift for someone that is indifferent to a 22" or a 24" since we're talking TNs anyway. I believe they'd rather buy a great 22" instead of an 'okay' 24" monitor. I've already seen *some* bitching about the BenQ in Hardforum and occassionally here too, though there are also lots of recommendations for it.

There is no way for me to see the BenQ in person. Perhaps you can clarify for me whether or not the G2400WD is as impressive image-wise (for a TN anyway) as the LG L227WTG was?

 

[ryedizzel]

So whats the deal with the Dell E2209W (22" Widescreen)? I did a forum search for it but couldn't find anything. Anyway it's on sale for $174 right now:

http://accessories.us.dell.com...BF&cid=7421&lid=197378

 

[eofor]

Refurbished Dell 3007WFP-HC: $749.

http://outlet.us.dell.com/ARBO...SC=%203007WFP-HC&s=dfh

I saw this on Hardocp's HotDeals and it seems like a great deal judging from the positive comments. I did not see it posted on this newsgroup and I think this group's readers will be interested.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: albovin
Hi xtknight,
I keep recommending your great resource wherever possible.

I received feedback from people I referred to this site regarding the Samsung 2493HM.
They say it's presence in gaming section can be justified by low input lag.
But multimedia? This model received negative review at prad.de. We can argue with their conclusions (sometimes they make mistakes), but anything below "good" in their verdict is a warning sign. The lack of scaling makes it PC-confined. That means "limited"media which is opposite to "multi"media.
To be honest, a couple of one-input 30" "limitedmedia" monitors provokes the same concern.

The biggest surprise is to see a TN model among recommended for photo editing.
Yes, we can edit photo on TN if we have nothing else. In this case this is not "out of the question". But I would never recommend doing so.

Similar (if not the same panel, photo from hardforum.com) 24" TN:
http://img357.imageshack.us/im...0wverticalcolorau0.jpg

I have just tested a new 28" TN monitor (not posted yet). I convinced myself one more time: there is nothing worse for photo quality than a TN monitor - whatever we say about TN "progress" , etc., etc.

Lagom test: vertical color shift is obvious. We can live with it (just $400 for 28"!) but recommending for photo editing.... I am sorry...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_0-tL...S4Gc/s1600-h/lagom.jpg

Back to PHOTO EDITING/WEB DESIGN section.
There is a nice monitor that is actually the King of 1600x1200 - the NEC 2190UXi.
It has all 2490 features (except for A-TW polarizer and widescreen resolution). It's max CR is little lower. This is the only IPS monitor with non-LG panel on the consumer market.
It features NEC-made panel.
This monitor is still available.
IMHO it is #2 in this area.
I cannot offer any links in English but this one:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl...sional-monitors_2.html
This article has mistakes (don't look at white/black/CR measurements - they are wrong at xbitlabs, also "cristal" effect can be seen on any panel, etc.), but it gives good general info about the monitor.

With respect to your tremendous work.

The only reason I'd recommend a TN in the Photo Editing section is to prevent someone from getting a worse TN. I will surely make a note that TNs aren't as suitable because of their viewing angle characteristics. Despite this, some people just need to touch up their photos, like remove red-eye or blemishes. They may also apply filters to their photos. While color balance may be a big part for critical work, my Photo Editing section also is for consumers who do rudimentary editing. Most people will know that it's their monitor shifting and not the photo itself. While annoying, many people cannot even imagine spending over $500 for a non-TN panel. If VA/IPS panels were more readily available in the US then I probably wouldn't even bother adding any TNs to the list. I, just like you, am not happy with the state of a market in which TNs dominate especially in the brick-and-mortar stores. I can only make one guarantee to you which is that TNs will be at the bottom and not be the primary recommendations.

You will find many of these theoretical tests and cherry-picked practical tests bring out the worst in the TN panels, but for most pictures they are actually not bad. And the gray shifting of VA panels doesn't exactly make them the most suitable for photo editing either. Yet, IPS panels are rare. So we are left with little or no choice. I have used every type of panel out there for a very long time and this is the conclusion I've come to.

The lower NEC 90 series wasn't on my list as I figured that for the price of the LCD2190UXi you could get a LCD2490WUXi so why bother...but I suppose this is up to the user. The remaining NEC 90 series will be added and perhaps some LaCies whenever good pro reviews come out. I used to recommend the UXp version of one of these LCDs as X-Bit liked it better; I may change my mind on this based on panel characteristics alone. Although if X-Bit liked the UXp better it's hard to believe the 20/21" UXp and UXi could be that much different. The one thing they haven't found out how to quantify in any meaningful way in consumer reviews is the viewing angles. You'll see some technical diagrams elsewhere with delta u and delta v (based on CIE) on them, but how to interpret these is a bit beyond me.

The 2493HM, while it lacks many inputs or scaling, is fine for most PC multimedia like playing games or watching movies. Multimedia is like a general purpose section with lots of motion pictures involved. At 30", those panels are the only choice. I would add the $1600 Gateway XHD3000, except that it's very pricey for an S-PVA panel which also had some type of panel QC problem. The 3008WFP may deserve a spot here despite its hefty price and I will consider adding it. It has a lot more inputs than the other panels. The 2408WFP I'd say is the best deal in this section. By the same token though I believe you liked the LCD2490WUXi for Multimedia better than the 2408WFP because of its extensive scaling options, but it also has a very limited set of inputs. (Yes, I do realize though the 2490 has more than one input unlike many 30" panels although if one really, really wanted he could use a DVI splitter/switcher without that much trouble.) Sometimes screen quality alone must be considered and many times that's what I do. Connections can be converted amongst themselves; screen quality can not be. I believe, based off what I've heard, the 2493HM is a fast standard gamut panel that's as good as any other TN when it comes to screen quality. That's why it's in the Multimedia section. It would be a double standard to omit the 2493HM and leave in all the smaller panels which lack any type of scaling. It must be considered that some people buy only from brick-and-mortar stores and recommending the best common LCDs is sometimes a necessity, despite their lack of merits over more esoteric, online-only panels that are slightly better.

With all that said, I really appreciate your comments and as you can see I'll definitely take into consideration some of the points you've raised here. Nothing's in black and white and nothing's in stone, especially when we're dealing with a system operated and used by humans.

To recap,

• The 3008WFP will be recommended (it's better for Multimedia than the other 30" panels despite price)
• The lower NEC 90 series IPS panels will be recommended in Photo Editing
• Photo Editing will have notes about TN panels. The Photo Editing section is under attack by the current state of the market. There's only three LCDs there now. For that reason, Photo Editing will become a dichotomy of professional and consumer, split between both with the prosumer caught somewhere in between. The pro/critical-work section(s) will lack TNs.
• 2493HM will remain in Multimedia

My goal is to eliminate double standards while being as pragmatic as possible with the recommendations. As you can see I have recently reworked and reorganized the recommendations a great deal, and this is an ongoing process.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: brencat

Originally posted by: xtknight
I haven't used the V2400W but I know the L227W is a great choice for a gamer. Not sure if he prefers glossy/wide gamut or standard/normal gamut.

xt, I finally saw an LG-L227WTG in person today and it is by far the best 22" monitor I have ever seen -- totally blows away anything Samsung has or used to have IMO, as well as most of their 24" TN-based line. I actually think the glossy screen adds to the vibrancy too, but it's not overbearing like with the HP 2408.

Only issue I have to resolve is whether or not something like the BenQ G2400WD at 24" would be worth stepping up to for an extra $100. That would be a sight-unseen purchase, however since no one carries BenQ anywhere near me. Any thoughts?

If you like the LG then get it, in my opinion. It's still up to the jury whether the G2400WD can top the LG or not, especially with the LG's gamut and coating.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: whalespew
So I am about to make the plunge from my CRT Sony g420, and buy my first LCD screen.

My panel requirements are:
First and foremost the screen will be used for photo / image editing
Second, my budget limit is around $600
Third, I am looking at something around 24+" in size

As far as I can tell this means an s-ips display, and the 24" HP LP2475w seems to be the best at this price point. The 25.5" Planar PX2611W is also rated highly in the forum, but is it worth the extra $200? Does anyone have any other suggestions for a photo editing panel?

The Planar itself I do not believe is worth the extra price due to the versatility of inputs the LP2475w offers as well as its very high gamut panel.

Just be sure to use a color profile when editing sRGB photos, as I warn anyone using a wide gamut panel. The HP though is basically the perfect choice for you.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: ryedizzel
So whats the deal with the Dell E2209W (22" Widescreen)? I did a forum search for it but couldn't find anything. Anyway it's on sale for $174 right now:

http://accessories.us.dell.com...BF&cid=7421&lid=197378

Hmmmmm...don't know, but no reviews on it.

 

[brencat]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: brencat

Originally posted by: xtknight
I haven't used the V2400W but I know the L227W is a great choice for a gamer. Not sure if he prefers glossy/wide gamut or standard/normal gamut.

xt, I finally saw an LG-L227WTG in person today and it is by far the best 22" monitor I have ever seen -- totally blows away anything Samsung has or used to have IMO, as well as most of their 24" TN-based line. I actually think the glossy screen adds to the vibrancy too, but it's not overbearing like with the HP 2408.

Only issue I have to resolve is whether or not something like the BenQ G2400WD at 24" would be worth stepping up to for an extra $100. That would be a sight-unseen purchase, however since no one carries BenQ anywhere near me. Any thoughts?

If you like the LG then get it, in my opinion. It's still up to the jury whether the G2400WD can top the LG or not, especially with the LG's gamut and coating.

Thanks xt -- I think I'm going to get the LG then on your blessing. Of course, the Best Buy $250 deal is gone now but I'll be on the lookout for it...

 

[10e]

Having seen both I would say the BenQ has a solid, accurate image, and the LG has a solid "wow" image.

Differences are as such:

- LG is wide gamut so colors are stronger, but less accurate.
- Glossy LG is very sharp due to no "anti-glare" distortion of image.
- LG is a unique TN screen in that it doesn't have colors that are slightly washed out at angles like most TNs.

If you are only hooking up a PC or Xbox 360 to it, I would recommend the LG quite highly. I also recommend the BenQ, but I do see complaints that it's not as vibrant as some others, but I do believe it's because colors are accurate. Sometimes people don't like "too" accurate, as they prefer vibrant.

It's always best to buy from reputable sources where you can return without hassle for any reason.

Originally posted by: brencat

Originally posted by: move4ward
Ok. If I am calculating right. That's a $32 difference.

Originally posted by: brencat

Yep, I know about the NCIX deal. But I can walk out of Best Buy today with the LG for $268 after tax today with their 30-day no hassle return policy... hmmm.

That's true. However, this would be a gift for someone that is indifferent to a 22" or a 24" since we're talking TNs anyway. I believe they'd rather buy a great 22" instead of an 'okay' 24" monitor. I've already seen *some* bitching about the BenQ in Hardforum and occassionally here too, though there are also lots of recommendations for it.

There is no way for me to see the BenQ in person. Perhaps you can clarify for me whether or not the G2400WD is as impressive image-wise (for a TN anyway) as the LG L227WTG was?

 

[you2]

Well the HP monitor I ordered arrived today. The box has GSM002 (manufactured sept 2008) so if the monitor matches the box it will be IPS. Bit of oddity on it the sticker also sez hp promo (not sure what that implies overall though on the surface I would think promo is a negative sign

 

[brencat]

Originally posted by: 10e
Having seen both I would say the BenQ has a solid, accurate image, and the LG has a solid "wow" image.

Differences are as such:

- LG is wide gamut so colors are stronger, but less accurate.
- Glossy LG is very sharp due to no "anti-glare" distortion of image.
- LG is a unique TN screen in that it doesn't have colors that are slightly washed out at angles like most TNs.

If you are only hooking up a PC or Xbox 360 to it, I would recommend the LG quite highly. I also recommend the BenQ, but I do see complaints that it's not as vibrant as some others, but I do believe it's because colors are accurate. Sometimes people don't like "too" accurate, as they prefer vibrant.

Great information, much appreciated. Looks like another vote for the LG at least from my perspective then. Thx, B

 

[you2]

On the surface the monitor (HP l2065) seems great. It has no obvious dead pixels not nearly as much shift as my older dell FP2001. It is a GMS002 revision (suppose to be IPS) manufactured sept 2008 (probably old stock).

Only real complaint is that it is much brighter than the dell (almost too bright). I set brightness down to 0 and contrast down to 60 to get a reasonable brightness level.

Well one other comment is that there is sort of a shimmering coating on the screen that is marginally distracting. The dell 2001fp was not glossy but somehow it seemed sharper or clearer than the HP. The HP seems like you are looking through a plastic layer that diffuses the image somewhat - a bit annoying (but the colours are great !)

Ok after using this display for a couple of days I think you should probably remove it from your recommended list. At least my copy has a copious amount of back light bleeding the the corner (i do not expect any lcd to be perfect esp in a dark room but this one is quite poor). I adjusted the tension in the screws and that helped a little. I probably won't return it but i would expect better at this price point. So I guess my summary would be:

great colour
lousy backlight bleed
lousy coating (that creates a diffuse effect)
--
It is not a bad monitor and I think it is too much hassle/cost to return but given the price point i had expected a bit better.

 

[wchang99]

Does anyone know of any resource similar to this thread (or to the review sites listed in the links section here), but for TV's? I've already gone through this thread for a monitor, and narrowed it down to several 22" and 24" examples; obviously, there's a pretty incredible level of thoroughness and objectivity (transparency) here, with all the info offered. For TV's all I know of so far is Consumer Reports, which seems like a good start, but might not be enough.

Many thanks, any suggestions appreciated!

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: wchang99
Does anyone know of any resource similar to this thread (or to the review sites listed in the links section here), but for TV's? I've already gone through this thread for a monitor, and narrowed it down to several 22" and 24" examples; obviously, there's a pretty incredible level of thoroughness and objectivity (transparency) here, with all the info offered. For TV's all I know of so far is Consumer Reports, which seems like a good start, but might not be enough.

Many thanks, any suggestions appreciated!

AVSForum is probably the most reputable.

 

[descartes2140]

Question for you guys. I have then NEC 20wmgx2 and I am looking for either 2 monitors to replace it or a single monitor to go along with it. Any ideas. The NEC is, I believe an AS-IPS panel, anything similar and easy to purchase in the 20" range.

Thanks.

 

[wchang99]

Thanks -- I'll look at AVSForum. Thanks for replying so quickly, as well.

 

[10e]

I'd agree with XTKnight about AVSForum, as well as this site:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/

They are fairly limited in brands/models, but they seem pretty thorough to me as well.

Originally posted by: wchang99
Does anyone know of any resource similar to this thread (or to the review sites listed in the links section here), but for TV's? I've already gone through this thread for a monitor, and narrowed it down to several 22" and 24" examples; obviously, there's a pretty incredible level of thoroughness and objectivity (transparency) here, with all the info offered. For TV's all I know of so far is Consumer Reports, which seems like a good start, but might not be enough.

Many thanks, any suggestions appreciated!

 

[brencat]

Just thought I'd throw this out there after a bit of googling and not finding much...

Anyone here have an Asus 26" VK266H or VW266H (webcam/non-webcam) ? Looks like Newegg reviews are 86% positive and it's selling for $380 shipped for the next couple days, although I would never buy from them given their horrible dead pixel policy.

Hardly any pro reviews on this monitor since they only came out around Halloween. How are Asus' monitors generally speaking from a quality perspective relative to someone like a BenQ or LG?

 

[10e]

Hey XTKnight,

Merry X-mas and Happy New Year

I was thinking that the Dell 2709W might be a strong multimedia candidate for the list.

I bought this in August on a very special one-day only Dell Canada deal, and my plan was to keep or sell depending on satisfaction level. My aim was to have a monitor that could fulfill my console gaming and movie watching needs, as my NEC only has two digital connections which is not sufficient for me, as I need 3 (and preferably 4) for cable box HD use, PS3, Xbox 360, and PC (as a second screen)

I ended up keeping it and sold other monitors because I've been so satisfied with it. To be honest it has exceeded almost all expectations. Other than hardcore FPS gaming (due to some input lag), it has been phenomenal in console and movie duty.

So far it's been excellent with component, VGA and HDMI based consoles. I've tried the PS3 over component and HDMI, the Xbox 360 over component, HDMI, and VGA, and a Wii over component, and the Dell has taken them all with aplomb, not showing any overscan or image distortion over HDMI, and minimal overscan of 2% per side over component but perfect scaling. It also has the ability to do video or graphics mode over HDMI. This allows either video level black/limited range (16 to 255 RGB) and slight overscan with 16:9 and 4:3 ratios, or computer level RGB/full range (0 to 255 RGB) and scaling of 1:1, aspect, and fill over "graphics mode". In video mode it will even display 480p properly, which is a challenge for most other screens. They display it at 3:2 in aspect scaling mode, while the Dell can do 16:9 in video mode over HDMI and component. Very flexible.

It also helps that it has four digital connectors (HDMI, DVIx2, DisplayPort), and three analog (composite, VGA and component)

I have also run input lag testing on it, and have averaged around 40ms. It seems to be a very tiny, almost unnoticeable amount slower than my LCD2690WUXI. I do notice the lag on both screens, but it isn't enough to drive me crazy, and for console gaming both are great. I haven't needed to calibrate GH or Rock Band for it due to lag.

Additionally the phenomenal black levels and very good on and off-angle viewing are excellent for movies. I have measured mine at 0.12 cdm/2 black and 145 cdm/2 white at 5 brightness, so it can go quite low without panel blocking/digital darkening down to very respectable levels. I've even been able to calibrate it to less than 0.5 DE94 with BasicColor 4.1.8 and Eye One D2 from NEC, (verified by Blue Eye Pro). I was also concerned about off-angle gamma shifting of dark colors, but so far I have been impressed with this. It is slightly "shiftier" than my H-IPS based NEC 26", but far less so than other A-MVA and S-MVA variants I've used. Again it has met and exceeded my expectations here. Reading forums with dark grey backgrounds don't result in the "cross eyed" stereogram feeling that I've had with VAs in the past. Part of this as well is due to the larger pixel pitch, and the ability to sit back more than an arms' length away and be comfortable in viewing.

I would say the only caveats to this screen are the initially slow warm up for the backlight, which improves over usage/ownership time, input lag, and horridly de-saturated sRGB mode. It can even be used as a Photo editing screen for Adobe RGB due to its wide gamut screen, but this requires a good calibration suite like the Eye One D2, which adds a good $200.00 to the price, bringing it up to, or past LCD2x90Wuxi levels.

 

[Glumwheels]

I'm looking for a 24" gaming monitor and I'm not really impressed with the Benq or Samsung lcds under gaming. My main concern is I want something with low input lag, great scaling, and black that looks black not shades of grey. Viewing angles won't be an issue.

Is the Planar really worth $800 if all I'm going to do is game on it? I'm willing to spend the money but I think it's overkill for what I want.