[Retired] The LCD Thread

[reiks]

Hey guys,

This is my first post here, I just wanted to say thanks for putting all of this awesome info together. I also wanted to get an opinion on a monitor, I was looking at getting the 24": Samsung SyncMaster 2493HM but I saw there was a 26": Samsung SyncMaster 2693HM which appears to be the same model just 2" bigger. I'm looking for a good gaming monitor and the 26" is just a little more tempting. Is it a good choice the only reason I decide to ask is the monitor is not on your list.

Thanks for any help.

reiks

 

[paperfist]

Originally posted by: brencat
I personally like glossy screens -- still using a 10yr old CRT (not for much longer...BenQ V2400W on the way!). Then again, my monitor is in a corner office cabinet away from sunlight. Only in mid summer when the sun is at high noon does it come through the skylights in the office and annoy me.

But it also depends on HOW glossy. For example, the hp 2408h is excessively so IMO, whereas the LG L227WTG-PF is just right. I recently saw these 2 monitors in person so that is why I made this particular comparison.

I didn't know there were gloss levels, thanks for pointing that out

I went ahead an ordered the Dell SP2309W and I'll post some feedback if anyone is interested.

 

[ZetaEpyon]

Originally posted by: paperfist
I went ahead an ordered the Dell SP2309W and I'll post some feedback if anyone is interested.

Cool, I'm definitely interested to hear your impressions.
I may have to move my own purchasing plans forward; my old 17" Samsung LCD is starting to develop a weird, faint green line.

 

[Exclusive]

Yes.

 

[WaxHaX0rS]

I have one question about the Benq G2400WD. What do people think of the brightness? The number in the spec (which I really know jack about) seems low compared to others.

Also, anyone know of an online store that has a good return policy? I probably won't be returning, but it would be nice just in case. I am thinking NCIXUS ( http://www.ncixus.com/products/31200/G2400WD/BENQ/ ) with the additional 0 dead pixel exchange policy (not returnable though I don't think).

 

[Nate RFB]

I am looking for an upgrade in the 24" LCD space. Having dealt with a 2405FPW for the past several years, input lag/response time are the two major areas that I'm trying to improve upon.

Dell's 2407WFP, 2407WFP-HC, and 2408WFP all caught my eye. The fact that the only thing I seem to deal with are Dell's is a coincidence, and any recommendations for other models would be fine. Those are just the ones that seemed to jump out in X-bit's 24" roundups.

All three seem to be very good, but have at least one factor that is less than desirable in the realm of response time, image delay, and/or RTC error rate.

The 2407WFP has an image delay of 23.7 ms on average, which is the best of the three. It also has a good RTC error rate of 5.4%. What it lacks is a great response time, 9.9 ms, which is I guess average for a VA panel. Currently I think I like this one the best.

The 2407WFP-HC has a superior response time of 6.6 ms and a comparable image delay of 34.1 ms, but the RTC error rate of 13.5% is very troubling. It seems like this model would be the easiest to calibrate and get some really good color gamuts, so it's kind of disappointing that that one flaw stands out so much.

The 2408WFP boasts an outstanding RTC error rate of 3%, but the image delay of 69 ms on average seems really bad.

Am I going about this the wrong way? Perhaps giving too much credence to RTC/response/image delay? All three monitors are probably vastly superior to my 2405FPW, but I'd still prefer to get the best compromise. I guess right now I'm leaning towards the 2407WPF, but would really appreciate some other input...

 

[Ardan]

I recall posting here once and I chose a new monitor, the L227WT and it was good, but the particular one that I had also came with some amazingly bad backlight bleed (half of the screen, to be precise), so I returned it to Best Buy but didn't get another one. I decided to just hold on to my 215TW and just not play many movies on it. I do realize that it isn't indicative of the model in general, but just was one bad egg. If anyone remembers, which is unlikely, my beloved 215TW has been getting some ugly backlight bleed on all 4 corners (regardless of the brightness level) that extends in far enough to get irritating when watching a widescreen movie because it was reaching the video.

Well, my brother and his wife would like it because I am thinking of getting one (after I finish my taxes--probably will get a big return this year too!) and I was a little curious. I haven't had a chance to do very extensive searches of forums, but I've glanced at reviews of various monitors. I do like to play games (such as Team Fortress 2, played Bioshock, but also enjoy racing games) but only casually. Regardless of the input delay the 215TW had (~47ms average? I can't remember where I saw that), I actually have done extremely well in first person shooters with that monitor.

I don't think it has hampered me one bit (and nothing improved drastically when using the L227WTG in games), so I've decided to go for another non-TN monitor. I don't just game on here, but I enjoy movies and also dabble in video/graphic design. I am, like probably many others in here, in the IT field and my photo work is nowhere near color critical. So, before someone talks of the lack of color accuracy of a wide-gamut monitor to me, just know that I really do not care at all about that (the video/photo work is neither for a job nor very serious work). I really enjoyed watching movies on that Samsung and don't really like it on the TN panels I've seen at other peoples' houses or my own (though it was hampered by the backlight problem).

So, I originally was thinking of HP's 22" S-PVA monitor, but it appears that a lot of people (some that I know, as well) have had some big issues with that screen, so that is out of the question. I was thinking of a good 24" screen like the LP2475w because of the H-IPS panel it uses, but also on my list was Dell's 2408WFP. Yes, I will be willing to pay for the LP2475w or the 2408WFP but no, I'm not going to go higher than that. Should this be a hands-down decision to go for the LP2475w if I am willing to pay for it, or is this a toss-up? I had no issues with the high input lag on the 215TW, but I was told that it is much worse on the 2408WFP so maybe I should stay away from that. Plus, there would be no color shift with the 2475W like on my 215TW, so maybe I should choose that instead. Sorry if this answer is obvious to some of you, but I just don't have the time right now to do some in depth research to break my indecision. I'm assuming, however, that it would be better to go with an H-IPS panel over an S-PVA. Is this accurate? Looks like that is probably the best deal, LP2475W. Thanks for your thoughts on this matter!

 

[brencat]

Originally posted by: Ardan
So, I originally was thinking of HP's 22" S-PVA monitor, but it appears that a lot of people (some that I know, as well) have had some big issues with that screen, so that is out of the question. I was thinking of a good 24" screen like the LP2475w because of the H-IPS panel it uses, but also on my list was Dell's 2408WFP. Yes, I will be willing to pay for the LP2475w or the 2408WFP but no, I'm not going to go higher than that. Should this be a hands-down decision to go for the LP2475w if I am willing to pay for it, or is this a toss-up? I had no issues with the high input lag on the 215TW, but I was told that it is much worse on the 2408WFP so maybe I should stay away from that. Plus, there would be no color shift with the 2475W like on my 215TW, so maybe I should choose that instead. Sorry if this answer is obvious to some of you, but I just don't have the time right now to do some in depth research to break my indecision. I'm assuming, however, that it would be better to go with an H-IPS panel over an S-PVA. Is this accurate? Looks like that is probably the best deal, LP2475W. Thanks for your thoughts on this matter!

If I had $600 to spend on an all-around monitor (which I personally don't), my choice today would be the HP 2475w, without hesitation. H-IPS screen with ~ 34ms total lag will be better than your 215TW and you'll have great image quality. I'm a FPS gamer primarily, yet would still be willing to take this chance on the HP if I had the money.

I'd personally avoid the 2408WFP given its 65+ms of lag, which is nearly 4 frames. There's plenty of posts on Hardforum about people returning this one because they can't stand the delay even from moving the mouse cursor. I'd hate to try gaming with that.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: you2
Are there any good ips panels @ 19 inch? I've sort of decided to return the hp and i'm not overly eager to pay $450 for a dell which might be no better. I was wondering if i step down to the 1280x1024 (19 inch) if the options were more appealing ?

Not any good IPS ones I don't think. But there is the NEC LCD1990FXp (S-PVA).

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Exclusive
http://detail.zol.com.cn/pictu...155/index1543675.shtml
http://detail.zol.com.cn/pictu...155/index1543682.shtml

OR

http://detail.zol.com.cn/pictu...186/index1851888.shtml
http://detail.zol.com.cn/pictu...186/index1851889.shtml



Which looks more correct and accurate with the colors?

It's very difficult to tell as the camera will do autoexposure and negate the effect of the dynamic contrast a bit. I'd say anything without dynamic contrast and whatever is closest to 6500K is the right thing, regardless of how it looks, but it's hard to tell without being there. The first, I guess, but I don't necessarily think the second is wildly off. I actually kinda like it. Again it's hard to tell without being there.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: cmv
Any thoughts on the SVA 2400W? Here is one thread about it that I'll snag the review links from:
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/hot-deals/892788/
Reviews:
http://www.behardware.com/arti...th-iolair-vs-dell.html
Manufacturer page:
http://www.sva-usa.com/2400W.html

The lack of adjustment on the stand and (if I recall correctly) the uncertainty of getting glossy or matte is a bit disturbing. But perhaps it is a good ultra budget buy for beginning photographers?

Yea it's certainly a good mention like the Westinghouse L2410NM and the Soyo 24" P-MVA that used to be around. Thanks for the info.

I wouldn't really hesitate to call it a good photo editing display but you'd probably need a colorimeter to make it so. VA panels do have an adequate viewing angle in my opinion for even critical photo editing. Many panels like this however come with poor default calibration and apparently as mmnno said, a lack of controls.

I'm trying to find out why you sent me to the Iolair vs. Dell review. Is the SVA the same as the Iolair? If so, what's also interesting is this is the only VA panel that I know of with no input lag.

Anyway, it looks like the SVA is a TN sometimes, unfortunately.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: reiks
Hey guys,

This is my first post here, I just wanted to say thanks for putting all of this awesome info together. I also wanted to get an opinion on a monitor, I was looking at getting the 24": Samsung SyncMaster 2493HM but I saw there was a 26": Samsung SyncMaster 2693HM which appears to be the same model just 2" bigger. I'm looking for a good gaming monitor and the 26" is just a little more tempting. Is it a good choice the only reason I decide to ask is the monitor is not on your list.

Thanks for any help.

reiks

I thought that 10e had some experience with the 2693HM here. I can't personally vouch for it (which, actually is the case with most monitors on my list). It should be pretty similar to the 2493HM. You might note that X-Bit Labs reviewed the 26" Samsung ToC successor to the *HM series (T260):

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl...ng-topaz_10.html#sect0

They didn't like it much. Yet, the T240 had much better color temperature setup. I also don't like getting TNs in the bigger sizes. I think 25.5" (26") is pushing it for the viewing angles a TN gives you. It's certainly usable, just not nearly as convenient as a VA or IPS panel. A while ago I was a bit hesitant to recommend 24" TNs to people, and although I got over that phobia, I don't think it'll happen with 25.5", 28", or 30" TNs.

My advice is to go with one of the 24" TNs on my list, a 24" IPS, or a 26" IPS panel. Even if a 26" TN had good color setup I wouldn't want to recommend it because of the size. To give you some idea:

From 17-22" it's pretty hard to tell a good TN vs other panels in everyday use.
In 23"+, the TN panels can start to be annoying in everyday use.
In 25.5"+, it is much more convenient to have a VA/IPS panel.

That's what I think. To tell you the truth I've never seen a 25.5" TN panel but from seeing the 24"s I can see how anything worse may be annoying.

It does depend on your use. You might be able to stomach a TN for any type of gaming. But if gradients on the screen annoy you, even basic use like browsing the web and seeing a gradient when there's supposed to be a solid color might get really annoying. Unless gaming is a huge thing for you, I'd always recommend a Dell 2408WFP or HP LP2475w before the G2400W, even though the latter is quite nice for a TN panel.

 

[Ardan]

Originally posted by: brencat
If I had $600 to spend on an all-around monitor (which I personally don't), my choice today would be the HP 2475w, without hesitation. H-IPS screen with ~ 34ms total lag will be better than your 215TW and you'll have great image quality. I'm a FPS gamer primarily, yet would still be willing to take this chance on the HP if I had the money.

I'd personally avoid the 2408WFP given its 65+ms of lag, which is nearly 4 frames. There's plenty of posts on Hardforum about people returning this one because they can't stand the delay even from moving the mouse cursor. I'd hate to try gaming with that.

Wow, no kidding huh? I thought it was maybe a little bit more than my current monitor. That is decidedly worse than this one is, that's for sure. No wonder people were returning them :Q. Obviously, an H-IPS panel with ~34ms total lag is a big improvement over my current monitor, and not just as far as input lag goes. I won't be buying it right away, because I want to get taxes out of the way first, but at least I have a goal to shoot for. Anyone know what the backlight bleed is like on that monitor, or are H-IPS panels usually fairly good in that regard? I just noticed that it says on this forum that it has some color temperature uniformity issues, too, but I think I am willing to take a chance on that as well.

 

[you2]

Are there any 19 or 20 inch monitors you would recommend for the multi-media category. I checked the first page and the only monitor I saw listed was the hp l2065 (which I am going to return). My sample of this monitor was horrible due to lower right hand corner being very bright. Since I've read so many bad reviews about hp service (recent reviews) I've decided to drop this model from consideration (also a few others noted the same issue).

I'm not that picky but playing witcher (which uses dark colours and paint that corner dark) and watching movies at night in a well light room were rather unenjoyable due to this issue. I stress these points to explain the issue clearly - i.e, the normal desk top you had to look to see it. During the day it was less noticable (sun light is much brighter than my 300 watt torch lamp - which is much brighter than most lamps folks use).
--
I would prefer to stick with a 4:3 monitor though would consider 20 or 22 inch 1980x1200 (not 1080p). Since I'm dropping the ips requirement I would think I could find something less expensive than the dell 2007fp. The benq 22inch seems tempting but it is widescreen and 1080p.

I guess I'm a bit odd since most folks oogle over widescreen. I noticed the westinghouse 32 inch 1080P for $269 which is oh so tempting 'cept that it is way too big for my environment. I really would prefer something in the 19/20 inch range - preferably 4:3 and solid blacks (even if it is not ips)

anyways hopefully something exist for weird people like me

 

[dfedders]

Originally posted by: xtknight
[It does depend on your use. You might be able to stomach a TN for any type of gaming. But if gradients on the screen annoy you, even basic use like browsing the web and seeing a gradient when there's supposed to be a solid color might get really annoying. Unless gaming is a huge thing for you, I'd always recommend a Dell 2408WFP or HP LP2475w before the G2400W, even though the latter is quite nice for a TN panel.

Are the gradients noticable when browsing the web or just general usage with the G2400WD? My wife has an older 19" LCD, and the gradients drive me nuts on it, so I've kept my CRT around. I was interested in the G2400WD, but not sure how bad the gradients look on it compared to an IPS or MVA. I would say that I am 50% gaming and 50% general use.

 

[Phantomaniac]

I was hoping someone could help me find a non-TN 20" wide panel to go with my Acer AL2051W. I don't think I can ever go back to a TN monitor. The colors look washed out and the viewing angles are horrible comparatively. Suggestions?

 

[GZeus]

Anyone got any insights on the LG W2600-PH?

There are only a few words written on it in this thread but the 'egg reviews are good. It would be primarily for gaming.

Thanks!

 

[GZeus]

Hmmm...well I guess I will give my own review after mine arrives.....patience is not one of my virtues

 

[Zap]

I just got the Acer Ferrari F-22 monitor, which is a 22" widescreen with X-Brite (Acer's name for glossy screen). Maybe xtknight can add it to the OP?

 

[xtknight]

Just a quick plug for flatpanels.dk. They have a new English site at http://www.flatpanelshd.com/. That also means great things for this thread. They have been providing some of the best reviews in the industry although until now they have all been in Danish.

If you guys have reviews of LCDs which you've been recommended by this thread, it would be great if you could post some user reviews at their forum to help them get started. Their forum has support for images.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: WaxHaX0rS
I have one question about the Benq G2400WD. What do people think of the brightness? The number in the spec (which I really know jack about) seems low compared to others.

Also, anyone know of an online store that has a good return policy? I probably won't be returning, but it would be nice just in case. I am thinking NCIXUS ( http://www.ncixus.com/products/31200/G2400WD/BENQ/ ) with the additional 0 dead pixel exchange policy (not returnable though I don't think).

At 250 nits it is a bit lower than others but I wouldn't let this turn you off from it. 200 nits, in my opinion, is the highest you can go to be comfortable and besides, many LCDs that can go over 250 nits have a ceiling at which colors become inaccurate. I am not sure where the "inaccuracy cut-off" for the G2400WD is, if it's even lower than 250. You'd have to ask an actual user about that.

I should probably mention the brightness spec is really "maximum brightness". With a backlight control, it would use PWM (pulse width modulation) to control this to the right nit (cd/m^2) level. PWM flashes the backlight over time to control the brightness as a human would see it. It happens from 150 - 600 Hz usually. Unfortunately, past a certain point, when the backlight is ALWAYS on temporally (PWM is not being used whatsoever), then the crystals have to be used to raise the brightness. That's where the inaccuracy (really, clipping) begins. You're going to lose higher levels of color (gray levels 230-255 may merge, for instance, and "burn" may be apparent [ the nonlinearity of crystals at red/green/blue or gamma correction causing discoloration at too high gray levels ] ).

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: dfedders

Originally posted by: xtknight
[It does depend on your use. You might be able to stomach a TN for any type of gaming. But if gradients on the screen annoy you, even basic use like browsing the web and seeing a gradient when there's supposed to be a solid color might get really annoying. Unless gaming is a huge thing for you, I'd always recommend a Dell 2408WFP or HP LP2475w before the G2400W, even though the latter is quite nice for a TN panel.

Are the gradients noticable when browsing the web or just general usage with the G2400WD? My wife has an older 19" LCD, and the gradients drive me nuts on it, so I've kept my CRT around. I was interested in the G2400WD, but not sure how bad the gradients look on it compared to an IPS or MVA. I would say that I am 50% gaming and 50% general use.

If gradients on a 19" TN drive you nuts, then you should probably avoid a 24" TN.

I haven't used a 24" TN on a daily basis but I can tell you at least one very forgiving review of the Samsung 245BW on YouTube mentioned that gradients could be quite distracting or annoying, and that this was the primary problem with the LCD.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Nate RFB
I am looking for an upgrade in the 24" LCD space. Having dealt with a 2405FPW for the past several years, input lag/response time are the two major areas that I'm trying to improve upon.

Dell's 2407WFP, 2407WFP-HC, and 2408WFP all caught my eye. The fact that the only thing I seem to deal with are Dell's is a coincidence, and any recommendations for other models would be fine. Those are just the ones that seemed to jump out in X-bit's 24" roundups.

All three seem to be very good, but have at least one factor that is less than desirable in the realm of response time, image delay, and/or RTC error rate.

The 2407WFP has an image delay of 23.7 ms on average, which is the best of the three. It also has a good RTC error rate of 5.4%. What it lacks is a great response time, 9.9 ms, which is I guess average for a VA panel. Currently I think I like this one the best.

The 2407WFP-HC has a superior response time of 6.6 ms and a comparable image delay of 34.1 ms, but the RTC error rate of 13.5% is very troubling. It seems like this model would be the easiest to calibrate and get some really good color gamuts, so it's kind of disappointing that that one flaw stands out so much.

The 2408WFP boasts an outstanding RTC error rate of 3%, but the image delay of 69 ms on average seems really bad.

Am I going about this the wrong way? Perhaps giving too much credence to RTC/response/image delay? All three monitors are probably vastly superior to my 2405FPW, but I'd still prefer to get the best compromise. I guess right now I'm leaning towards the 2407WPF, but would really appreciate some other input...

For gaming, the 2408WFP's input lag could be bothersome. For general use I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it, though. Gaming is the only instance where you can't "get used to" the input lag because it directly affects when you see players/enemies. Otherwise the human brain takes over, compensates, and it's generally not a problem. Although, many people are in denial of their own abilities to adapt to it. Humans are not that different and one's not special just because he can detect a few less milliseconds of delay than the other. Of course people have different opinions on this, but the X-Bit Labs LCD reviewer also shares my opinion in his article about input lag.

It really depends on what you use the LCDs for. If gaming is not important to you, you might seek a panel that happens to be higher in input lag but delivers stellar performance in other areas. Do consider the HP LP2475w, which has only 33 ms on average of lag and shouldn't have too many RTC errors. No, I don't have data on the RTC errors, but traditionally IPS panels have had good RTC mechanisms, maybe because LG Display (IPS panel manufacturer) takes more care with these types of panels. The only problem I know of with this LCD is the color temperature uniformity issue (slight discoloration on sides of screens). Not everyone has had it. I'm not sure how that issue is going but it may be under control now. It's worth an investigation.

If you don't want to put up with that, there's the trusty Planar PX2611W which is a step up in size at 25.5" but still IPS. Its hookup features unfortunately pale compared to the HP's.

If you want an undisputed, good 24" LCD go for the NEC LCD2490WUXi. Although, it's not wide gamut, and also lacks many features of the HP. It's also pricey for what it is. If the HP didn't have that QC issue it would be king.

 

[reiks]

Thanks xtknight for the reply and keep up the great work! :thumbsup:

 

[Exclusive]

xtknight,

The Dell 2408WFP (A01 Rev) has majorly decreased the input lag from 60 ~ 70ms to 30 ~ 35ms.