[Retired] The LCD Thread

[mrcupholder]

Just been doing a little more reading through this thread and found there is at least one mention of the Dell 2209WA being in short supply.

I ordered and paid for two of them on the 4th September and they arrived today on the 8th September.
I can't wait to get home and plug them both in. I'll post back here with what I think of them.

I should note that I live in Australia.

Thanks for this thread


Edit: I've only had the chance to get one out of the box so far. First impression is that it is way better than my TN. I love the 178/178 viewing angle on it. It looks great when I rotated it to vertical. I'm going to be very happy with this screen for some time to come.

 

[albovin]

xtknight,

About the Samsung F2380.

Many pros and cons taken from your review.

There must be an important correction.
I have never mentioned 16:9 as a good thing.
On the contrary, 16:9 is disadvantage.
Instead of true 1920x1200 (16:10) it has just cropped 16:9.
No one should be deceived by "23" 1920x1080 novelty":thumbsdown: because this is technically a standard 24" 1920x1200 screen without an upper portion (cut off to make more profit).
That's why the review says: "less monitor for less money".

Given a full (true) resolution and better factory settings (with its standard color gamut, higher CR and sharper text), the Samsung F2(4)80 could have been a real event.

Cropped resolution (1920x1080=16:9) cuts down its potential as a universal multi-purpose monitor.

Experts community should be very certain about inferiority of lower resolution products and uncover marketing tricks with no doubt.

PICTURE

I will make it more clear in the review.

wide viewing angles due to VA

This is a common trap we usually step in.
On the one hand, PVA viewing angles are much better than those on TN.
On the other hand, PVA viewing angles are much narrower than those on IPS.
What shall we do with this fact?

Average Joe understands this literally: wide means wide, especially looking at the false specs stating same 178 degrees both for IPS and PVA that is not true.

To say "wide viewing angles" about PVA means to say half truth.
I think experts community must be more specific in that matter.

But nevertheless I still believe F2080 and F2380 are good Multimedia monitors.

The Multimedia section is the heart of your classification because it reflects the most important quality - universal use.
F2080. Once Russian Tzar received a present from abroad - a mechanical flea. He demontrated the flea to his domestic "technicians" and ordered to make something more outstanding. "Technicians" made appropriate size horseshoes and put them on the flea feet.
F2380 - yes. I agree with you. It has selection of digital inputs, it supports video signal (including 1080p) properly, has normal scaling and contitionally acceptable viewing angles.
At the same time, it has reduced vertical resolution that obviously deteriorates its ability to deliver "media" in comparison with the full resolution monitors (BTW F2380 lacks audio equipment in any form).
Also this very model has worse than typical for PVA colorshift.
IMO I would classified F2380 but with the remark about reduced resolution and more than usual colorshift.
I would mark every substandard resolution monitior (at least those with misleading diagonal sizes - 23", 24", 26", 27") in your classification the same way.
Some would say that 1920x1080 is "mainstream", so why...?
The answer: no, it is not. Standards have not changed.
What is "mainstream" for low cost product marketing propaganda is not standard yet - it's still substandard.

Best of luck with your hard work.
Thanks.

 

[barryst]

any thoughts on the lg w2353v-pf as an all-around office/gaming monitor?

 

[waldojeffers]

Hey there guys,

I was directed here from a gaming forum, so firstly.. lovely to be here, looks like a fantastic community you folks have here! So what's my story? I've been trying to find info on input lag on the BenQ g2411. I managed to track someone down online who had the screen I want (benq g2411) and he did an input lag test for me. The times are EXACTLY the same, have we done something wrong? What's up here!!! surely the input lag is not exactly the same?? A picture speaks a thousand words :

http://i110.photobucket.com/al.../Doyl_mx5/DSC00421.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/al.../Doyl_mx5/DSC00422.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/al.../Doyl_mx5/DSC00423.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/al.../Doyl_mx5/DSC00424.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/al.../Doyl_mx5/DSC00425.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/al.../Doyl_mx5/DSC00426.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/al.../Doyl_mx5/DSC00427.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/al.../Doyl_mx5/DSC00428.jpg

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: looper
xtknight...

First, would just like to thank you for your consciencetious attention to helping out in this massive thread! Beating a dead horse here, but if you can slog through this and respond I will be happy...

I want a 24" monitor/HDMI-DVI/,and 1920x1200 resolution(if you think it helps). It is primarily for 'FPS' online gaming (COD-WaW and the upcoming COD-MW2 due out Nov. 10th) for my son and me. I also do the standard MS Word letters/files, web-surfing, and email.

My computer is quite fast. (Specs are listed below in 'sig'). And we have a '22down/31/2up' cable connection to the game server.Our 'ping' to this server is typically @ 50-55ms. I think we have maximized our network speed as much as we can: port opened on our D-link DIR655 router for the game, shut-off background running processes, etc.

We want to maximize our speed within the game. Some folks say it's all about having a monitor that gets that image to your screen as fast as possible. Others say, of course that is important, but if you can run the game at high resolution as well, that helps you to 'see' better from distance on the game map....'see first/kill first'...As for seeing better from distance on a game map, is this true, that the better the video card, the higher the "draw distance" (how far away from where you're standing you can see) ? Supposedly, higher resolution increases detail at distance, so while it won't let you see someone further away, it will let you notice something you were able to see at a lower resolution, but couldn't tell if that something was a tree or an enemy.

Z-clipping (clip of the maximum distance you can see) can be reduced (expanding maximum distance) by having a better video card, but only if you set the setting as such within the game. Many have a "distance" option. It is very geometrically intense. The video card itself will allow you to have that setting run faster when at max.

And having a higher resolution doesn't really mean you see more. Low res should show most everything just fine. Perhaps there are pixels of difference, but if you use SSAA with a low resolution, you should see those details in the subpixels (subpixel hinting). Depends how the game is coded, so I'm not sure.

I am looking at a few IPS models:
The HP 2475w and the new Dell U2410 due out here in the USA within a month or so. The HP is around @ $525. and the Dell will be more. Over at the Engadget site, news there stated LG about to come out with several IPS 'gaming' monitors. The TN monitors are much less money. But, for everyday non-gaming use?

I was running COD-WaW at 1600x1200 resolution. I am now playing at 1024x768, thinking I'm gaining some speed at lower resolution....but not really because my vid card can handle the 1920x1200 resolution the new monitor will have?

If you reach at least 60 Hz then lowering the res will gain you zilch.

Getting a 16:10 ratio, 1:1 pixel-mapping(in case we run at non-standard resolution?), and non-wide gamut(over-saturated colors lead to inaccurate scene recognition in-game?) important in helping in terms of my goal here?

What do you folks think?

Wide gamut shouldn't matter. In fact, it might even help if you can see a wider range of colors in the picture. There's innately more contrast in that situation (so it's more obvious you're seeing a *red* enemy, etc). 1:1 may reduce scaling lag. 16:10 ratio depends on the particular game, but I wouldn't say it's *important* that it's not 16:9 or 4:3. Really anything should be fine with modern games.

You're going to want a TN monitor for maximum speed. Check out the ASUS VK246H and BenQ E2400HD (actually 16:9 LCDs) or other 24" recommended LCDs in the OP. Honestly any 24" TN should work great but the VK246H is probably a great choice. I don't know exactly how 16:9 will work with your game but I'm not seeing many 1920x1200 (16:10) 24" TN LCDs on Newegg. A few...but I've got no idea about their performance.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: MrGiGs
Hi guys,

Firstly I wanted to thank xtknight for a great set of initial posts I enjoyed reading them alot (yes, I did actually read them all properly too)

I'd like to ask for some opinions on a monitor to buy, I have around £200, and the following are the model numbers I've seen around, that I can afford and seem to be in plenty of stock. Please would anyone with a spare moment advise me on which is the best for someone who Games alot, surfs the internet alot, and does some Photo and Video editing (nothing professional, more mediocre borderline amateur). I'd prefer average/good colour reproduction, good contrast (preferably at mid brightness) <10ms response, and 24'' (I'd prefer 24'', as I want something bigger than my current 22'', I'll seriously consider a 23'' if there are some really nice ones in my price range (which I doubt, £200 isn't alot for a 'good' monitor). 16:9 / 16:10 I don't mind which 1080p/1200p, makes no real difference to me, I intend it solely for PC usage, so a HDMI isn't necessary but I would prefer DVi over just VGA.

Dell S2409W (£202)
BenQ E2400HD (£168)
LG W2442PA-BF (£190)
Samsung SM2433BW (£206)


Any other recommendations are highly appreciated, as of course is your Time and Experience.

Thanks in Advance!


~Mr.GiGs

(PS, the reason i want to replace my current 22'', is its a Belinea o.display_2 22'', and its ok, but I recently was given a Samsung 205BW, and I hadn't realise just how poor my Belinea was, but I want to switch to a large single display for Windows 7, rather than the 2x 1680x1050 monitors Im currently using for WinXP)

Off hand I think the E2400HD is the best choice. BenQ has had a lot of nice monitors lately.

Guess not much else I have to say about this one. Umm I think over in Britain they may have Iiyama LCDs available? There may be a good Iiyama monitor. Check DigitalVersus. I mainly focus on monitors available in the US though. http://www.digitalversus.com/d...&mo2=565&p2=6216&ph=12

I think the Iiyama E2403WS is supposed to be great.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: tuan209
Hey guys,

I just received my 2209wa and it seems that the very right edge of the screen is darker than the rest of the monitor. Is this uniform problem with the lcd? Should I send back for a replacement?

Btw... I am using a vga connection since I hooked this lcd to my laptop. Not sure if this has anything to do with it.

Tuan

I mean, I never know what to say to these inquiries without a photo or sense of relativity to how other units are. The Dell Forum may be able to provide you some pointers on the 2209WA specifically, or if you post a photo here maybe someone here can tell you if it's unreasonable backlight bleeding or not.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: mrcupholder
Just been doing a little more reading through this thread and found there is at least one mention of the Dell 2209WA being in short supply.

I ordered and paid for two of them on the 4th September and they arrived today on the 8th September.
I can't wait to get home and plug them both in. I'll post back here with what I think of them.

I should note that I live in Australia.

Thanks for this thread

Cool. I think there is a shortage in the US though. I'm not sure.

Originally posted by: waldojeffers
Hey there guys,

I was directed here from a gaming forum, so firstly.. lovely to be here, looks like a fantastic community you folks have here! So what's my story? I've been trying to find info on input lag on the BenQ g2411. I managed to track someone down online who had the screen I want (benq g2411) and he did an input lag test for me. The times are EXACTLY the same, have we done something wrong? What's up here!!! surely the input lag is not exactly the same?? A picture speaks a thousand words :

http://i110.photobucket.com/al.../Doyl_mx5/DSC00421.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/al.../Doyl_mx5/DSC00422.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/al.../Doyl_mx5/DSC00423.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/al.../Doyl_mx5/DSC00424.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/al.../Doyl_mx5/DSC00425.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/al.../Doyl_mx5/DSC00426.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/al.../Doyl_mx5/DSC00427.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/al.../Doyl_mx5/DSC00428.jpg

Actually it's not too surprising. There's probably no error. Many TN LCDs have 0 ms input lag. In fact, very few should have input lag, if they aren't scaling. Some use bigger buffers for overdrive though, but that's mostly necessary for PVA/MVA LCDs where the tones near the pretilt angle is a problem (dark tones).

 

[waldojeffers]

So by the sounds of it xt (Thanks so much for the reply, been looking for help on these pictures for days) this screen will be great for gaming as far as input lag is concerned and I should buy the screen, yes? Is there *anything* this guy could have done wrong as far as setting up the input lag test goes? These results still seem too good to be true.

Oh and when you say "If they aren't scaling" do you mean playing a game with 720 native and having my screen on 1080 and it has to scale to my screens resolution?

Thank you so much,
Waldo

 

[looper]

The new Dell U2410 is here... $599.

I guessed the price correctly...

http://configure.us.dell.com/d...=en&cs=04&kc=&oc=u2410

Oh boy, decision time is near...how to rationalize to the wife... OUCH

Is this the monitor I want to game with.... yes and no...oh geez, here we go again...

 

[zod96]

That is less than I thought it would be for sure. Although I couldn't wait any longer and got a doublesight 26 inch h-ips about 2 weeks ago for $449...

 

[lesurderf]

Received the Dell 2209WA's yesterday Sep 9. Very nice. $ 289 each. Thanks XKnight I appreciate your posts. Two things I like unrelated to the screen have to do with the desk space I gained. I moved from dual panel 17" screens and these are elevated enough to put my Audioengine A2's under the screen on their sides and I can push the screens to the back of the desk and see clearly. I have my desk back. Great.

 

[xtknight]

ignore this

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: albovin
xtknight,

About the Samsung F2380.

Many pros and cons taken from your review.

There must be an important correction.
I have never mentioned 16:9 as a good thing.
On the contrary, 16:9 is disadvantage.
Instead of true 1920x1200 (16:10) it has just cropped 16:9.
No one should be deceived by "23" 1920x1080 novelty":thumbsdown: because this is technically a standard 24" 1920x1200 screen without an upper portion (cut off to make more profit).
That's why the review says: "less monitor for less money".

Given a full (true) resolution and better factory settings (with its standard color gamut, higher CR and sharper text), the Samsung F2(4)80 could have been a real event.

Cropped resolution (1920x1080=16:9) cuts down its potential as a universal multi-purpose monitor.

Experts community should be very certain about inferiority of lower resolution products and uncover marketing tricks with no doubt.

PICTURE

I will make it more clear in the review.

wide viewing angles due to VA

This is a common trap we usually step in.
On the one hand, PVA viewing angles are much better than those on TN.
On the other hand, PVA viewing angles are much narrower than those on IPS.
What shall we do with this fact?

Average Joe understands this literally: wide means wide, especially looking at the false specs stating same 178 degrees both for IPS and PVA that is not true.

To say "wide viewing angles" about PVA means to say half truth.
I think experts community must be more specific in that matter.

But nevertheless I still believe F2080 and F2380 are good Multimedia monitors.

The Multimedia section is the heart of your classification because it reflects the most important quality - universal use.
F2080. Once Russian Tzar received a present from abroad - a mechanical flea. He demontrated the flea to his domestic "technicians" and ordered to make something more outstanding. "Technicians" made appropriate size horseshoes and put them on the flea feet.
F2380 - yes. I agree with you. It has selection of digital inputs, it supports video signal (including 1080p) properly, has normal scaling and contitionally acceptable viewing angles.
At the same time, it has reduced vertical resolution that obviously deteriorates its ability to deliver "media" in comparison with the full resolution monitors (BTW F2380 lacks audio equipment in any form).
Also this very model has worse than typical for PVA colorshift.
IMO I would classified F2380 but with the remark about reduced resolution and more than usual colorshift.
I would mark every substandard resolution monitior (at least those with misleading diagonal sizes - 23", 24", 26", 27") in your classification the same way.
Some would say that 1920x1080 is "mainstream", so why...?
The answer: no, it is not. Standards have not changed.
What is "mainstream" for low cost product marketing propaganda is not standard yet - it's still substandard.

Best of luck with your hard work.
Thanks.

albovin,

I appreciate the insight but 1920x1080 has been a standard before 1920x1200. 1920x1200 is a strange PC bastardization of it, probably done because of LCD mother glass sizes or something like that? Honestly I'm not sure why they did it. Maybe I'm wrong and 1200 came first (I don't think so), but either way, 1080 vertical is indeed the HD standard. Nobody's going to deny 1920x1080 is smaller, but then again, I already recommend a couple 1920x1080 LCDs at least for Gaming.

PVA monitors have higher brightness at wider angles, however, they have more gamma shift and "strangeness" than IPS panels. This is important to understand. That means that PVA monitors are good for instances in which you would like to see bright material at a very wide angle, though not necessarily accurately. Text is a good example. Gamma for text doesn't really matter. White and black aren't affected by gamma (midtone power function). Of course there are other things than white and black text but in practice most simple material is brighter with VA panels at a wider angle. It's not good for instances in which gamma is critical, i.e., photo editing. But we are talking about *wide* viewing angles here. Straight on, I think VA panels are good for Photo Editing, for the most part. It depends on how they are calibrated at the factory, and in the F2380's case this was subpar and caused black crush. Yes, the "dark plane" in the middle of VA panels is also a problem. The 245T as X-Bit Labs stated actually did a good job of eliminating black crush but may have gone too far, raising the black level. Actually I'm not sure why raising the black level is necessary, as I thought only gamma was adjusted.

(S-)PVA panels are good for public displays where sheer brightness is of paramount importance, because the crystals have a high transmission rate in that alignment. I've seen an NEC IPS public display as well though, and it was just fine.

Having owned TN, P-MVA, AS-IPS, and H-IPS monitors and having seen S-IPS and S-PVA ones, I'm no stranger to the effects of gamma shift on the various types of panels.

In fact I'd say 1920x1080 increases its ability to show media. What media is 16:10 these days? At least we don't need black bars or distortion, right? There are more pixels, yet what use is that if they aren't used appropriately or are detrimental to the output?

I will mention that the F2380 is more susceptible to color shift.

Perhaps slightly relevant to this conversation is that the A-TW polarizers are no longer in manufacture. This is why NEC has released the LCD2490WUXi2 and LCD2690WUXi2 models. The LCD3090WQXi never had A-TW. So, white glow on IPS returns.

Yup, thanks for your contributions and lighthearted comics. It makes for good discussion, at least, which I never mind.

 

[looper]

xtknight...

ignore this

??

 

[xtknight]

Hey waldojeffers,

The photo tells the story.

It isn't too surprising actually. Why should an LCD not be able to update as fast as a CRT?

A CRT uses a raster beam which starts from the upper right (from our view) and goes to the left all the way down the screen. It completes this cycle every 16.66 ms at 60 Hz (1000/60).

An LCD is addressed simultaneously to transition every 60 Hz. The crystals typically complete this transition within <16.66 ms (maybe 10 ms for a fast LCD). If they don't they are simply resignaled to spin to the next pixel if they can do that on time.

IPS and VA LCDs sometimes have multiple cell domains (within a pixel) that must be signaled. These don't slow anything down; they can still be addressed within this period of time.

VA LCDs have slow pixel transition time in the darker shades of gray (and thus, colors). For this reason they are pretilted to a certain angle to accelerate transition. That may raise black level but it provides a quicker way to get to the other tones. The cPVA type of panel is more classical. It uses Samsung's first version of overdrive: DCC-I (Dynamic Capacitance Compensation, v. 1) which does not pretilt as much. Therefore its black level is lower, but it is very slow at transitioning dark tones. It also eliminates input lag because DCC-II among requiring a higher black level requires a bigger overdrive buffer. Slow dark transitions are evident by looking here:

http://xbitlabs.com/articles/m...080-f2380_6.html#sect0

DCC-II usually requires a buffer of two frames (32 ms) or more in order to operate properly.

Additionally, scaling (resolution scaling) or multimedia processing can contribute to input lag.

Your LCD uses AMA (BenQ's DCC) but it does not require a buffer. It is easier to use overdrive (DCC) with TN LCDs because they don't have the pretilt problem. The same is also true with IPS panels to a certain extent, although TN panels are the easiest. That's exemplified by examining the various types of LCDs on the market and their relative input lag. It usually goes something like this:

TN: 0 or 1 (no buffer, or one-frame buffer)
cPVA: 0? (not needed due to DCC-I?) DigitalVersus reports 2 frames of lag for some reason. This might be response time. I don't know how they measure.
IPS: 2 (twice as slow, uses LG Display ODC, not sure of details)
PVA: 3 (thrice as slow, uses DCC-II now)

You aren't using scaling (I assume). And you have (or, he has) a TN w/ overdrive (G2411HD). What resolution was used on each one though? I don't quite understand about one being stretched.

Overdrive looks something like this (again this is my "practical" theory, assuming but based on results):

For a TN:
[pixel input]-->[realtime DSP/overdrive LUT]-->[pixel output]

For a VA or IPS:
[pixel input]-->[realtime DSP]-->[one or two frame DRAM]-->[overdrive LUT]-->[pixel output]

The LUT contains stuff like

Requested Voltage --> Output Voltage

.4V --> .6V
.6V --> .8V

Upon receiving a request for gray shade .4V, .6V is sent and gradually dropped to .4, perhaps with some sort of temporal function.

Also, input lag is generally only a multiple of 16.67 ms (1000/60). That's because you either have 0, 1, 2, 3, n... buffers. 16.67*n = your input lag. Plus maybe some response time to actually have the numbers appear bright on the screen.

The realtime DSP and voltage lookup doesn't cause lag. I hope this answers your question as to why your TN is performing so well.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: looper
xtknight...

ignore this

??

Ignore the "ignore this" post. That's about all there is to it. I pressed reply an extra time by mistake. Using as a buffer for a future reply.

 

[looper]

Oh...

Thought you were telling me to ignore the new Dell U2410 !!

(I might get this as my gaming monitor...)

 

[omber]

Great thread

I would like to throw in my two cents: I bought a pair of Acer H233H (23", Widescreen, 1920x1080 native) to replace an older 20" Acer. They are great monitors as far as I can tell after two months. Nice of Acer to include an HDMI, DVI, VGA and audio cable with each (built in speakers and all 3 inputs, which are selectable).

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: looper
Oh...

Thought you were telling me to ignore the new Dell U2410 !!

(I might get this as my gaming monitor...)

No, it may be a good choice. Still, the TNs as I said would reduce lag the most. U2410 may have one frame of lag I'm guessing. Don't get me wrong, the U2410 is the best monitor for everything else but for gaming+speed alone go with a TN. I don't even know if you can tell a frame of difference but you said you wanted the fastest.

 

[looper]

I think I make up for that with my 23down/4up internet connection and the video card...I hope...

 

[rumnyc]

I saw a new dell st2410 lcd panel (TN). anyone know anything about it?

http://accessories.us.dell.com...dhs&cs=19&sku=320-1070

 

[rumnyc]

Are there any good 24" 1920x1200 monitors with built in webcam and speakers? the closest I am finding are dell monitors (looking at u2410) with the sound bar (ax510) or HP w2448hc with webcam. there is ASUS VK246H with webcam and speakers--is it any good?

I do occasional gaming, but my wife uses the monitor for hours during the day for writing.

we have very limited desk space hate cable clutter so was looking for a combined solution.

 

[Luddite]

xtknight, what exactly does the A-TW polarizer do for the panel. Does it keep the colors normal at wide viewing angles? How important a feature is it? Does the absence of an A-TW polarizer automatically mean white glow?

I'm trying to decide between the new NEC 2490 and the old one.

On Hardforum there is a current discussion on the new Dell U2410. Many have observed a really bad case of white glow on the new Dell, as well as the grainy-sparkly finish on the screen (supposedly similar to HP2475W).

 

[zod96]

That would be due to the lack of a-tw polarizer on the new u2410 screen. On my doublesight lcd with the a-tw screen, their is no white glow or grainy finish in the screen its smooth and clean..