[Retired] The LCD Thread

[ChorniyVolk]

Damn, I don't actually understand anything about anything in this regard.

Is there an alternative to using those two modes?

Where should I start reading to get myself up to speed on monitor tech? I mean more of the slow transition from layman's to actual terms and whatnot, because everywhere I go, it starts out assuming you have basic knowledge when that's exactly what I'm trying to get.

Will have to keep track of that thread XTKnight linked to, see how this firmware of theirs comes along.

Thanks.

 

[Winterpool]

Heck, I don't altogether understand what I posted before myself. I simply trust that XTKnight does understand (as well as a few others on the Hard|Forum, eg Albovin, 10e, Snowdog, et al -- and sometimes they disagree).

I suppose there are worse places than Wikipedia to start? Also the initial posts at the beginning of this thread. Perhaps XTKnight can point us to a few primers (I know every once in a while X-bit Labs publishes a nice overview of display tech, but they tend to become outdated after a couple of years -- and X-bit writes these pieces very infrequently).

Edited: a Hard|Forum punter claims he's read that Dell is working on a firmware fix for the dithering issue. I'm too lazy to find the relevant thread on the Dell forums, but presuming this is true, I'm now certainly going to wait till the holidays to buy the Dell U2410.

 

[ChorniyVolk]

Yeah, in that thread that I mentioned (one that XTKnight linked to) it's a customer complaining about the dithering issue (with that guy's link I managed to figure out what the problem was, so at least I understand dithering now) and a Dell employee talking about it with said customer; then at the end he mentions that as of now they're working on a firmware to fix it, but doesn't know when they can get it out.

My only problem is I need to get to making a new build soon, as in within the next few weeks, I don't think I can wait til the holidays, so I'm hoping either this new firmware comes out soon and fixes the problem, or someone explains to me this concept of different RGB modes so that maybe I can use something other than the 2 affected by the dithering issue.

 

[Winterpool]

TFT Central, in their review of the Dell U2410, strongly urge punters to read this X-bit labs discussion of extended colour gamuts. A wider gamut theoretically can display a greater range of colours -- good, right? But if displaying colours from a more limited source (eg sRGB content), an extended-gamut monitor will 'stretch' out the colours it's trying to display from sRGB to fit the monitor's own wider gamut. So you get inaccurate colours which often look oversaturated. A lot of punters learn to enjoy inaccurate, oversaturated displays (this is a notorious issue in the TV market), but if you do colour-sensitive work, or even if you simply enjoy, ahem, appreciating realistic flesh tones on your monitor, when pink looks neon red, you may not be best pleased.

If you review the very lengthy Hard|Forum thread on the HP LP2475w (the first affordable wide-gamut IPS display), you'll see quite a few punters gnashing their teeth over the bright-red results when trying to view sRGB content. Lots of shots of pink flamingos, I seem to recall. Web content is sRGB.

You can try calibrating your monitor to ameliorate the effects, but this doesn't remove the fundamental problem (stretching a narrower source colour range across a much wider display gamut). One partial fix is colour-aware applications (Firefox is colour-aware) which can load a calibrated profile to display content from particular spaces more accurately. Unfortunately, many apps are currently not so configurable. Also uncertain how much Windows 7 itself is colour-aware in this regard.

Essentially I held off buying the HP LP2475w owing to this issue. I'm thrilled that the Dell U2410 has a usable sRGB mode, but the visible dithering is currently a dealbreaker.

(X-bit labs also discusses the problem of smooth colour gradients when you're working with different gamut sources and displays; here we must also discuss the video signal being generated by your graphics card. The solution appears to be 10-bit video, but there is little support so far... As mentioned before, the Dell dithering problem may stem from 8-bit to 12 to 10 and then sRGB conversion -- a lot of converting going on!)

I'm sure I've misunderstood or elided various details. XTKnight and others will certainly clarify anything I've muddled.

Edited: all this is to say, if you don't employ Dell's sRGB mode, you'll probably be able to avoid the dithering (no one seems to report this issue when using the native wide gamut of the display), but you'll suffer inaccurate, oversaturated colours when viewing sRGB content (eg the Web). You'll basically have the same problems as an HP LP2475w owner.

Some punters may find it acceptable to switch between modes, for example using sRGB most of the time (web browsing) but using the standard wide-gamut mode when viewing dark imagery. Too awkward? Then we shall have to wait and see if Dell has any sort of fix. Or you could buy a much costlier NEC.

 

[ChorniyVolk]

Hmm, well what other stuff displays in sRGB? Switching between color modes doesn't sound too bad if it's easy enough (a few button pushes). I also do use Firefox so that will help with web browsing.

I'm wondering though, what will use this wider gamut? Will most games and ripped movies (much of my media) use it? Or will they be in the sRGB areas as well, stretching their colors to accommodate the wider gamut? Is a monitor displaying just sRGB any better than a decent TN panel? I'm wondering if I even really need an IPS anymore.

And what about this Adobe stuff?

 

[Luddite]

As far as I understand, yes, you can switch between sRGB and WG on the Dell. The sRGB is a simulated sRGB and not a true sRGB. But in the TFT Central review, they said the simulated sRGB is still pretty good, unlike the HP LP2475W which they said didn't fair well in sRGB. As far as I know one would still have to do the initial monitor calibration from the wide gamut mode.

I'm not sure how easy it is to switch back and forth between the two modes, maybe someone can answer that.

If the Dell is dithering in the sRGB mode, than that would be a deal breaker for me as well. But what attracted me to the Dell (apart from the H-IPS panel) was the low input lag in gaming mode. I don't game, but I am sensitive to mouse lag, coming from a CRT monitor.

Chorniyvolk, wide gamut colors are only useful for photo editing, especially for print. Movies, websurfing and games (unless they have color profiles) will not use the extended gamut and will appear oversaturated. Some web browsers, like Firefox, (actually I think that's the only browser) have color management so can use wide gamut. Windows Office has color management as well. Wide Gamut has very little application and compatibility outside photo editing usage.

 

[kokujin]

I have decided to get an LCD after all these years.I will be using it mostly for games, so I know I will need a TN monitor.The problem is, how do I know if a monitor is TN or not.Most sites do not list that detail.The second problem I have is , I am not sure what resolution to get.I know I want a 24", but I don't want to get too high of a resolution, and not be able to play my games on it.I am currently running a 8800 GT, but will be running 2 in SLI next week.Lastly what are some good places to purchase a monitor from?I went to Best Buy, but I would like to look around some more.If anyone has any monitor suggestions, that would be helpful as well.Thanks in advanced.

 

[TitusTroy]

I've been holding out for years on buying an LCD as I did not find one that could match my current CRT in terms of overall performance and image quality...but now my 10 year old amazing 21' Sony CRT looks to be on its final legs and I was all set on going with the NEC LCD2490WUXi until I heard about the Dell U2410...would this be a good choice if I primarily will be using it for high end PC gaming?

meaning is the U2410 better then the NEC LCD2490WUXi in terms of gaming (image quality, response rate, input lag)?

 

[ChorniyVolk]

Originally posted by: Luddite
As far as I understand, yes, you can switch between sRGB and WG on the Dell. The sRGB is a simulated sRGB and not a true sRGB. But in the TFT Central review, they said the simulated sRGB is still pretty good, unlike the HP LP2475W which they said didn't fair well in sRGB. As far as I know one would still have to do the initial monitor calibration from the wide gamut mode.

I'm not sure how easy it is to switch back and forth between the two modes, maybe someone can answer that.

If the Dell is dithering in the sRGB mode, than that would be a deal breaker for me as well. But what attracted me to the Dell (apart from the H-IPS panel) was the low input lag in gaming mode. I don't game, but I am sensitive to mouse lag, coming from a CRT monitor.

Chorniyvolk, wide gamut colors are only useful for photo editing, especially for print. Movies, websurfing and games (unless they have color profiles) will not use the extended gamut and will appear oversaturated. Some web browsers, like Firefox, (actually I think that's the only browser) have color management so can use wide gamut. Windows Office has color management as well. Wide Gamut has very little application and compatibility outside photo editing usage.

So not using the wide gamut, is it still worth it to get an IPS?

 

[Winterpool]

It's only been recently that most high-end PVA and IPS displays have been wide-gamut. The NEC LCD2490WUXi, perhaps the most highly regarded all-around monitor of recent times, was an sRGB H-IPS display. Luddite was pointing out that for those of us who aren't colour professionals (especially those working in an ultimately print environment), wide gamut is a liability rather than a feature, since most geeks live in an sRGB world (the Web).

The advantages of IPS still apply: better viewing angles, speed (compared to PVA), colour accuracy (though this is the area where wide-gamut IPS displays become somewhat inconvenient).

From your original posts, it seems you want a monitor that can do it all: game well, function as 'not just a badass monitor but a great TV as well'. IPS isn't best in every category, but it's the best overall technology. PVA arguably makes a better 'TV' in the sense of watching video (good blacks and contrast), but it can be slow for a twitch-gamer. TN is fast but has poor viewing angles and colour. If you want it all, you'll probably have to go IPS.

 

[TitusTroy]

it's come down to the Dell U2410, HP LP2475W and the NEC LCD2490WUXi for me...and I'm still undecided between the 3

can someone offer me some advice on the best of those 3...I am mostly going to be using it for gaming (mostly single player FPS games like Crysis, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Clear Sky, Bioshock etc) along with internet surfing and word processing software (Office 2007)

the Dell U2410 seems like a great deal but the wide gamut aspect worries me a bit...the HP has amazing black levels but I'm worried about overall performance...the NEC worries me in terms of input lag, response time and overall gaming performance...can someone offer me some good advice...I really want to buy this week...Thanks

 

[T2k]

U2410 is just fine, to get one of the best colors out there all you have to do is calibrate it in Standard mode, it even beats the most-coveted NEC, just read the TFTCentral.co.uk review.
I, for one, decided to ditch my DreamColor plans and just keep buying these U2410 - up to 3 monitors - as soon as they start hitting the $380-$400 mark...

 

[Luddite]

Originally posted by: T2k
U2410 is just fine, to get one of the best colors out there all you have to do is calibrate it in Standard mode, it even beats the most-coveted NEC, just read the TFTCentral.co.uk review.
I, for one, decided to ditch my DreamColor plans and just keep buying these U2410 - up to 3 monitors - as soon as they start hitting the $380-$400 mark...

The Dell U2410 did not beat the NEC. It tied it in the dE average test. Overall, the NEC was still better. You might want to re-read the TFT Central review:

"This was actually our joint top performer in terms of colour accuracy average, matching the NEC 2490WUXi in dE average.
Once calibrated however (and once you've found you need to leave the screen in 'standard' mode to do this!), the U2410 offered the best dE average results we have seen in our reviews. At 0.2 average, it matched the record holder, the NEC 2490WUXi, a screen aimed at colour enthusiasts primarily and which featured an effective hardware LUT calibration method as well. dE maximum for the U2410 was 0.7, where the NEC just pipped it with a maximum of 0.5. The NEC remains our overall champion...just; but the Dell U2410 was very impressive in this test. Colour accuracy has improved through Dell's generations as well, from 0.8 average in the 2407WFP-HC, to 0.5 in the 2408WFP, and now to 0.2 average. The U2410 also just beat the HP LP2475W (which uses a very similar panel part) which came in at 0.3, although it was far more accurate than the Dell at default settings."

 

[ChorniyVolk]

Originally posted by: Winterpool
It's only been recently that most high-end PVA and IPS displays have been wide-gamut. The NEC LCD2490WUXi, perhaps the most highly regarded all-around monitor of recent times, was an sRGB H-IPS display. Luddite was pointing out that for those of us who aren't colour professionals (especially those working in an ultimately print environment), wide gamut is a liability rather than a feature, since most geeks live in an sRGB world (the Web).

The advantages of IPS still apply: better viewing angles, speed (compared to PVA), colour accuracy (though this is the area where wide-gamut IPS displays become somewhat inconvenient).

From your original posts, it seems you want a monitor that can do it all: game well, function as 'not just a badass monitor but a great TV as well'. IPS isn't best in every category, but it's the best overall technology. PVA arguably makes a better 'TV' in the sense of watching video (good blacks and contrast), but it can be slow for a twitch-gamer. TN is fast but has poor viewing angles and colour. If you want it all, you'll probably have to go IPS.

Mainly I just want to know if the difference is worth the cash as far as colors and quality go between a TN and an IPS if I'm not using wide gamut.

Viewing angles are great, but for $200-$300 I think I can manage, so it all comes down to color accuracy and quality of colors/images on the monitor.

I wonder if I can go to a Best Buy or something and see if they put IPS panels on display to see the difference, though I doubt it.

 

[mlah384]

Crap, i just bought the Dell 2408WFP and from what I'm hearing/reading I should of bought the Dell U2410? Bah! I thought the Dell 2408WFP was the best 24" Dell had?

 

[ChorniyVolk]

Originally posted by: mlah384
Crap, i just bought the Dell 2408WFP and from what I'm hearing/reading I should of bought the Dell U2410? Bah! I thought the Dell 2408WFP was the best 24" Dell had?

Isn't the 2408 a PVA whereas the 2410 is an IPS?

 

[zod96]

Need some advice or thoughts on the Dell G2410. The Doublesight I have is just too bright. I thought I could live with it, but I can't. I don't care about TN vs. IPS etc. I don't want to spend more the $300 on a 24 inch monitor. I was thinking about the Dell G2410. Its an LED and with a coupon I can get it for about $250 shipped. Are their any other 24 inch monitors out their under $300 in the 24 inch range that are worth looking into?

 

[ChorniyVolk]

Originally posted by: zod96
Need some advice or thoughts on the Dell G2410. The Doublesight I have is just too bright. I thought I could live with it, but I can't. I don't care about TN vs. IPS etc. I don't want to spend more the $300 on a 24 inch monitor. I was thinking about the Dell G2410. Its an LED and with a coupon I can get it for about $250 shipped. Are their any other 24 inch monitors out their under $300 in the 24 inch range that are worth looking into?

Where do you get your coupons? I've googled some sites, but I wonder if there isn't some better archive of coupons. I've signed up for their email service too, but that was fairly recently and I don't expect to get coupon codes for a while.

 

[imported_rykerabel]

Originally posted by: TitusTroy
it's come down to the Dell U2410, HP LP2475W and the NEC LCD2490WUXi for me...and I'm still undecided between the 3

can someone offer me some advice on the best of those 3...I am mostly going to be using it for gaming (mostly single player FPS games like Crysis, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Clear Sky, Bioshock etc) along with internet surfing and word processing software (Office 2007)

the Dell U2410 seems like a great deal but the wide gamut aspect worries me a bit...the HP has amazing black levels but I'm worried about overall performance...the NEC worries me in terms of input lag, response time and overall gaming performance...can someone offer me some good advice...I really want to buy this week...Thanks

Those games are all "wide gamut" aware and can be configured to work with any wide color gamut monitor for even more breathtaking visuals without oversaturation.

Your video card driver's extra software should also be able to be configured for a wide color gamut monitor and should be able to change settings based on which applications you are currently using.

 

[xtknight]

Worst week ever. Crap, I hate it when I have to put this thread aside....

Originally posted by: j0j081
I posted this in the displays section of hard forum hoping for a good answer but nobody has really been able to give me one so far.

"I am desperately trying to pull the trigger on a new lcd. I don't have a lot lot of money so I'll probably be getting one of the inexpensive Asus screens as this will primarily be used for gaming. One thing that is making my decision more difficult is there are 3 sizes 23, 23.6, and 24 that all run at 1920 x 1080. I feel a 23 inch would probably be plenty large enough for me as I'm using an old Samsung crt at the moment but which of the 3 will actually have the best picture quality? Instinct tells me the 23 inch because the pixels will be the smallest. Are the other two just wider for the most part or do they add height? Thanks."

I don't get why there are 3 different sizes for that res especially the 23.6.

The others would be diagonally bigger, proportionately. Here is the exact size (active pixels) for all of them:

23" (16:9): 509.184 x 286.416 mm
23.6" (16:9): 521.3 x 293.2 mm
24" (16:9): 531.4 x 298.9 mm

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: MorUmbar
I'm looking for some info on the input lag of VK266H/VW226H. I've been searching through forums for a few hours now and cant find anything except one guy saying "as far as I can tell there isn't any." Which doesn't really give me any solid numbers to compare with other panels. I want to have a panel ordered in the next two weeks and would appreciate some numbers or a link for a good thorough review.

It's probably very low. They are TN panels. I would feel confident buying them for gaming.

Originally posted by: mlah384
For graphic design, web design, 3D, etc... How come the Apple 30" isn't listed? How does it compare to the NEC's? The NEC LCD2490WUXi was listed as best for web design, but why are there no displays larger than 24" listed in that section?

Thanks

The 24" is the biggest because it is the biggest standard gamut IPS panel. The 26" and 30" wide gamut panels haven't been added because wide gamut can complicate web design.

I could add the Apple 30" to the wide gamut section, however, its lack of controls and glossy panel I don't like very much. The Dell 3008WFP and 3007WFP-HC are just as good. The HP LP3065 is another good alternative.

I was thinking of adding the Apple 24" LED to the list, but again the U2410 and LP2475w suffice for this area too. They do just as good of a job at a lower price, IMO.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Winterpool
Heck, I don't altogether understand what I posted before myself. I simply trust that XTKnight does understand (as well as a few others on the Hard|Forum, eg Albovin, 10e, Snowdog, et al -- and sometimes they disagree).

I suppose there are worse places than Wikipedia to start? Also the initial posts at the beginning of this thread. Perhaps XTKnight can point us to a few primers (I know every once in a while X-bit Labs publishes a nice overview of display tech, but they tend to become outdated after a couple of years -- and X-bit writes these pieces very infrequently).

Edited: a Hard|Forum punter claims he's read that Dell is working on a firmware fix for the dithering issue. I'm too lazy to find the relevant thread on the Dell forums, but presuming this is true, I'm now certainly going to wait till the holidays to buy the Dell U2410.

Yes, start by reading the OP! It is a big FAQ of info. Yea...I will try to update things to include eIPS, cPVA panels, and so on. Who knows when that will be......I guess when I feel like it. I've got so much shit I should be doing. But everything up there is still relevant as ever.

Originally posted by: Winterpool
TFT Central, in their review of the Dell U2410, strongly urge punters to read this X-bit labs discussion of extended colour gamuts. A wider gamut theoretically can display a greater range of colours -- good, right? But if displaying colours from a more limited source (eg sRGB content), an extended-gamut monitor will 'stretch' out the colours it's trying to display from sRGB to fit the monitor's own wider gamut. So you get inaccurate colours which often look oversaturated. A lot of punters learn to enjoy inaccurate, oversaturated displays (this is a notorious issue in the TV market), but if you do colour-sensitive work, or even if you simply enjoy, ahem, appreciating realistic flesh tones on your monitor, when pink looks neon red, you may not be best pleased.

If you review the very lengthy Hard|Forum thread on the HP LP2475w (the first affordable wide-gamut IPS display), you'll see quite a few punters gnashing their teeth over the bright-red results when trying to view sRGB content. Lots of shots of pink flamingos, I seem to recall. Web content is sRGB.

You can try calibrating your monitor to ameliorate the effects, but this doesn't remove the fundamental problem (stretching a narrower source colour range across a much wider display gamut). One partial fix is colour-aware applications (Firefox is colour-aware) which can load a calibrated profile to display content from particular spaces more accurately. Unfortunately, many apps are currently not so configurable. Also uncertain how much Windows 7 itself is colour-aware in this regard.

Essentially I held off buying the HP LP2475w owing to this issue. I'm thrilled that the Dell U2410 has a usable sRGB mode, but the visible dithering is currently a dealbreaker.

(X-bit labs also discusses the problem of smooth colour gradients when you're working with different gamut sources and displays; here we must also discuss the video signal being generated by your graphics card. The solution appears to be 10-bit video, but there is little support so far... As mentioned before, the Dell dithering problem may stem from 8-bit to 12 to 10 and then sRGB conversion -- a lot of converting going on!)

I'm sure I've misunderstood or elided various details. XTKnight and others will certainly clarify anything I've muddled.

Edited: all this is to say, if you don't employ Dell's sRGB mode, you'll probably be able to avoid the dithering (no one seems to report this issue when using the native wide gamut of the display), but you'll suffer inaccurate, oversaturated colours when viewing sRGB content (eg the Web). You'll basically have the same problems as an HP LP2475w owner.

Some punters may find it acceptable to switch between modes, for example using sRGB most of the time (web browsing) but using the standard wide-gamut mode when viewing dark imagery. Too awkward? Then we shall have to wait and see if Dell has any sort of fix. Or you could buy a much costlier NEC.

I've looked into the Windows 7 thing.

First of all, they've added a rudimentary display calibration wizard. That's not comparable to using a colorimeter of course, but it's as good as you can do by hand, for sure.

Windows 7 now has its own LUT loader instead of needing to install third- (or even first-) party software like Windows Color Control Panel or xcalib.

That's about it, I think. There is still no global color management. God only knows why.. this is very easy to do with an OpenGL-backend desktop and shaders. It is quite silly that no one cares. It has already been proven possible in mplayer on Linux with an unofficial patch. I've tried it; the concept works great. It is also implemented in DirectX using Media Player Classic Home Cinema where you can generate shader code using an Excel worksheet and plugging in color coordinates. I can dig it up if you're really interested.

I don't recommend you use sRGB mode. So the Dell's sRGB mode is better than others, but it dithers and it still sucks. Even my LCD2690's sRGB mode is pretty ugly. I'll admit I haven't thoroughly investigated it, but after trying it I don't think I'll ever use it again. (Yes, ugly is awfully relative.) Use native, and let software do sRGB transformations. As for games, forget it. I am not sure they are really made to be sRGB anyways. Many of them even apply their own gamma curves at startup, at least older games. Just enjoy the vibrant colors. For the web, use the color management features of your browser. Grab Media Player Classic Home Cinema if you want media color management. HDTV material (BT.709) conforms to sRGB.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: ChorniyVolk
Hmm, well what other stuff displays in sRGB? Switching between color modes doesn't sound too bad if it's easy enough (a few button pushes). I also do use Firefox so that will help with web browsing.

I'm wondering though, what will use this wider gamut? Will most games and ripped movies (much of my media) use it? Or will they be in the sRGB areas as well, stretching their colors to accommodate the wider gamut? Is a monitor displaying just sRGB any better than a decent TN panel? I'm wondering if I even really need an IPS anymore.

And what about this Adobe stuff?

HDTV conforms to BT.709 which specifies an sRGB gamut.

I don't know what uses wide gamut right now really, except for print publishing material and wide gamut scanners. Also a niche of people using RAW photo processing.

Hopefully this will change and we will get more wide gamut material.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: kokujin
I have decided to get an LCD after all these years.I will be using it mostly for games, so I know I will need a TN monitor.The problem is, how do I know if a monitor is TN or not.Most sites do not list that detail.The second problem I have is , I am not sure what resolution to get.I know I want a 24", but I don't want to get too high of a resolution, and not be able to play my games on it.I am currently running a 8800 GT, but will be running 2 in SLI next week.Lastly what are some good places to purchase a monitor from?I went to Best Buy, but I would like to look around some more.If anyone has any monitor suggestions, that would be helpful as well.Thanks in advanced.

Welcome to the forums. Sorry it took so long to respond.

A 2x 8800 GT setup is pretty good. 24" only comes in 1920x1080 and 1920x1200 so you are forced to choose one of these.

NCIX US has a dead pixel policy for certain monitors, I think. Dell.com is good to buy from, too, due to their exchange policy.

Of course, I would suggest the Dell U2410. It is going on the list right now. But, if you want a TN (best for gaming) then grab an ASUS 24" (the one with or without the webcam, your choice).

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: ChorniyVolk

Originally posted by: mlah384
Crap, i just bought the Dell 2408WFP and from what I'm hearing/reading I should of bought the Dell U2410? Bah! I thought the Dell 2408WFP was the best 24" Dell had?

Isn't the 2408 a PVA whereas the 2410 is an IPS?

Yes, U2410 is better overall.

Originally posted by: zod96
Need some advice or thoughts on the Dell G2410. The Doublesight I have is just too bright. I thought I could live with it, but I can't. I don't care about TN vs. IPS etc. I don't want to spend more the $300 on a 24 inch monitor. I was thinking about the Dell G2410. Its an LED and with a coupon I can get it for about $250 shipped. Are their any other 24 inch monitors out their under $300 in the 24 inch range that are worth looking into?

Interesting. It looks like a good deal. Not to be confused with U2410. Go for it if you are feeling ambitious.

Otherwise get an ASUS 24".