Retro gaming

[CZroe]

What kind of TV? Image scaler could be tripped up by the 320x240, 60hz signal. I recall my brother's Dell 2005FPW going nuts with the N64 version of Star Wars Episode 1 Racer when it switched resolutions (game supported 320x240 and 640x480). Obviously, it's a 480i NTSC 60 field per second signal either way, but the image scaler still detected and displayed "320x240" as the signal resolution. Not sure if we were using S-Video or Composite, but it was analog either way.

 

[Fallen Kell]

That might be the issue. It is one of those strange outputs which could mess with modern TV's. I will have to pull out the CRT I kept for playing my real old systems (Intellivision and Atari 2600) since up until last you I had not seen anyone even planning on RGB or HDMI mods for those systems to get them playing on modern sets.

 

[Ichinisan]

Given that I am breaking out the NES again, anyone hear more about when the "Blinking Light Win" will be in production and available?

Looked up BLW and it just seems silly. Replacement connectors have been available forever and are quite affordable. Even if they do wear out again, I prefer to keep the original loading mechanism. It would be difficult to remove the game with that connector.

Also, in his video, he demonstrates putting the RF shield on with absolutely no regard for possibly shorting out places on the board while he slides it around and the system is powered on. That careless fool isn't getting any of my money!

He also said something blatantly wrong about NES being designed to be "as toy-like as possible." Nothing could be further from the truth! The name ("Nintendo Entertainment System") and design was meant to distance it from toys and video games after the market crashed in the early '80s. The loading mechanism mimics a VCR (expensive high-end technology in that day).

 

[Fallen Kell]

To an extent, you are correct in the original US NES design. However, time and analysis has shown that the loading mechanism is flawed. Due to the insert and push-down, there is no initial solid connection of the pins over the cart, as the tension on the pins does not exist until it is pushed down (think of it like a pair of pliers closing over the end of the cart when it is pushed down, but when it is open, the pins are not in contact). All previous, pin/cart connections (and future pin/cart connections), involved having the pins spring loaded so that the space between them was less than the width of the cart. When the cart is pushed into those pins, there is physical friction of the pins sliding across the contact points on the cart, mechanically cleaning the contact point (by pushing across it) removing dust and other light oxidation buildup on the contacts and pins. However, in the original US NES design, that physical cleaning does not occur as the pins never drag across the contacts of the cart, they simply pinch down on top/bottom of the cart as the cart is pressed down, compacting dust and debris onto both the contacts and the pins, making them progressively dirtier and dirtier over time. Even Nintendo's engineers realized the problem, which is why the NES 101 redesign went back to the old compression socket, as well as the SNES, and subsequent N64. The original NES pin connection was and is a design failure, all to make it seem different from past designs, stand out from the crowd of old consoles and make it appear to be like the high end tape players, and VCR's of the day (in the same way that curved TV's are attempting to look high end due to curved movie/theater screens which actually are high end because they resolve the fixed focal distance from a projector lens across a greater area of the screen).

This mod replaces the pin connector with a standard compression pin connector to make it as reliable as all other pin connectors. I mean seriously, I have systems that are older than the NES (Atari, Intellivision, TI-98a, etc) which still do not have any problem at all with their pin connectors and have never need replacement or cleaning (of both the carts or the connector), where-as with the NES, I have to polish my carts every 5-10 years and open and clean the pin connector in the console every few years as well to keep it working.

 

[Ichinisan]

Played around with KI Gold last night. Rumble Pak with no batteries in controller # 2.

Turned on the N64 and the screen was blank. Stuck. The moment I unplugged controller # 2, the music started and the spinning N64 logo appeared. I reconnected the controller with the Rumble Pak to # 2 and reset the system, which hung on the blank screen again. The music started and the spinning N64 logo appeared as soon as I removed the Rumble Pak from the controller. I played several rounds on 2-player VS mode with CZroe and his roommate with the Rumble Pak still connected.

I went to a screen in the game options to check the Controller Pak and the game froze until I removed the Rumble Pak. I think it gave an error message about reading the Controller Pak.

So I guess, when you have a Rumble Pak installed, the game just hangs while waiting for mempak data. As soon as you remove the Rumble Pak, the game gives up trying to read the mempak and continues normally. So that wouldn't cause screen blanking during a match. It *would* seem like the game won't work because it's stuck on a black screen when you turn it on.

 

[Ichinisan]

To an extent, you are correct in the original US NES design. However, time and analysis has shown that the loading mechanism is flawed. Due to the insert and push-down, there is no initial solid connection of the pins over the cart, as the tension on the pins does not exist until it is pushed down (think of it like a pair of pliers closing over the end of the cart when it is pushed down, but when it is open, the pins are not in contact). All previous, pin/cart connections (and future pin/cart connections), involved having the pins spring loaded so that the space between them was less than the width of the cart. When the cart is pushed into those pins, there is physical friction of the pins sliding across the contact points on the cart, mechanically cleaning the contact point (by pushing across it) removing dust and other light oxidation buildup on the contacts and pins. However, in the original US NES design, that physical cleaning does not occur as the pins never drag across the contacts of the cart, they simply pinch down on top/bottom of the cart as the cart is pressed down, compacting dust and debris onto both the contacts and the pins, making them progressively dirtier and dirtier over time. Even Nintendo's engineers realized the problem, which is why the NES 101 redesign went back to the old compression socket, as well as the SNES, and subsequent N64. The original NES pin connection was and is a design failure, all to make it seem different from past designs, stand out from the crowd of old consoles and make it appear to be like the high end tape players, and VCR's of the day (in the same way that curved TV's are attempting to look high end due to curved movie/theater screens which actually are high end because they resolve the fixed focal distance from a projector lens across a greater area of the screen).

I know it's flawed, but it's authentic. A normal replacement connector will develop the problem again, but I want the experience preserved...or I would just use a modified top-loader.

Nintendo really didn't care about the experience with the top-loader. In the US, the top-loader was released well after the SNES. It was a value-priced system ("HUGE LIBRARY OF GAMES!"). It had horrible video output circuitry. The original Japanese Famicom was a top-loader too, but it had an ejection mechanism that worked very well. The re-designed top-loader doesn't have the mechanism because...well...CHEAP! It doesn't even have the CIC copy protection chip!

You have to hold the system down with one hand so you can pull the cartridge up with the other hand. Fingers put pressure on the game's label while pulling and it causes all kinds of wear to the game label.

Initially, the SNES / Super Famicom had a proper eject mechanism in all regions. Then, just like NES, the re-designed mini-SNES nixed the eject mechanism.

I'd have to watch the guy's video again, but I think he implied that none of the subsequent top-loading systems have problems with cartridge connectors. I beg to differ! Nearly every SNES is *very* sensitive after a significant amount of wear / age. Even after cleaning, you can't touch the cartridge or bump the system (or the furniture) without causing the game to freeze.

 

[Fallen Kell]

I'd have to watch the guy's video again, but I think he implied that none of the subsequent top-loading systems have problems with cartridge connectors. I beg to differ! Nearly every SNES is *very* sensitive after a significant amount of wear / age. Even after cleaning, you can't touch the cartridge or bump the system (or the furniture) without causing the game to freeze.

That is true on some of the systems, but that is due to a poor choice of metals on the pin design which allowed them to spread apart. A few games/devices did not help either, such as the game genie which had slightly wider carts bending the pins farther apart.

 

[Ichinisan]

That is true on some of the systems, but that is due to a poor choice of metals on the pin design which allowed them to spread apart. A few games/devices did not help either, such as the game genie which had slightly wider carts bending the pins farther apart.

Back in the day, my SNES systems never had anything inserted except officially-licensed games and accessories (X-Band modem). I never owned an SNES Game Genie and none of my friends had one I could borrow.


:hmm:
Makes me wonder if my Naki Game Saver Plus might have a thicker board / connector than a standard game cart. I haven't touched the thing in a looong time, but it might have been left in the SNES while in storage. Regardless, I have the problematic connectors on all my SNES systems (multiple redesigned systems and at least one old / original design).

By contrast, my N64 games do not lock up from bumping the system. The cartridge seems much more secure in an N64. They do sometimes need a few insertions or even a quick blow to get them working. I can't say 100% that the games are clean since I have a lot of duplicates and I'm always uncovering cartridges stored in different places...

My N64 has spent a *lot* more time with unlicensed accessories inserted.

• Doctor V64 accessories (pass-through adapter, DS1 adapter, DX256 adapter)
• Doctor V64 Jr (E64) 512mbit

 

[CZroe]

I still suspect the image scaler in your TV has trouble with 320x240 sources. I found an old thread where I talked about issues with N64 on that Dell 2005FPW I talked about:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=18874583

I have since learned that some modern TVs support a "240p" mode, which I suspect is deinterlaced from 320x240 over 480i. I think this monitor was trying and failing to do something like that, assuming that any 320x240 resolution was supposed to be 240p and furthermore thinking any progressive signal was supposed to be 16:9.

Episode 1 Racer supported two different resolutions, which further screwed with the scaler. TVs have to support 320x240 over 480i better than that monitor. It seems that yours supports it just fine for most games, but I suspect that the 60 field per seconds that Killer Instinct Gold uses is enough to overwhelm it. Another 60 field per second game on N64 is F-Zero X and I am curious to know if it will behave the same way.

 

[Ichinisan]

I'm pretty sure you're channeling Brian Williams and "misremembering" the 320x240 thing. It was my monitor and I used the composite / S-video inputs quite a bit for classic gaming. I do not recall ever seeing a composite / s-video input signal detected as anything other than 480i.

I also don't remember having aspect ratio difficulties with the analog inputs, but I could be wrong about that. [edit]The controls were unintuitive and I probably figured out how to do what I needed.[/edit]

Some emulators like ZSNES could output such screen resolutions natively through VGA/DVI. Perhaps you saw something like that?

 

[CZroe]

I'm pretty sure you're channeling Brian Williams and "misremembering" the 320x240 thing. It was my monitor and I used the composite / S-video inputs quite a bit for classic gaming. I do not recall ever seeing an composite / s-video input signal detected as anything other than 480i.

I also don't remember having aspect ratio difficulties with the analog inputs, but I could be wrong about that.

Some emulators like ZSNES could output such screen resolutions natively through VGA/DVI. Perhaps you saw something like that?

Nothing misremembered. Look at the date. I remembered it recently, told you about it, then found an old thread of mine that supports what I remembered back when there was no need to remember (was actively experimenting). Do I have to buy a used 2005FPW to prove it to you?!

 

[Fallen Kell]

Yeah, it is something I need to check. I have 3 external upscallers that I might be able to test with to see if it is the TV having the problem (Xrgb-Mini Framemeister, an older DVDO Edge, and my Integra DHC-9.9 can convert and upscale from composite).

 

[Ichinisan]

Nothing misremembered. Look at the date. I remembered it recently, told you about it, then found an old thread of mine that supports what I remembered back when there was no need to remember (was actively experimenting). Do I have to buy a used 2005FPW to prove it to you?!

That post said nothing about detecting 320x240 as the input resolution and reporting it as such. Anything expecting an NTSC signal is not trying to detect a resolution at all. It had one of those most basic LCD blur scalers. No fancy image processor.

 

[CZroe]

That post said nothing about detecting 320x240 as the input resolution and reporting it as such. Anything expecting an NTSC signal is not trying to detect a resolution at all. It had one of those most basic LCD blur scalers. No fancy image processor.

320x240 wasn't the input resolution. Input was 480i. N64 was rendering 320x240 and outputting it as 480i.

And I am absolutely POSITIVE that I have seen lower resolutions detected over analog signals by scalers and reported on-screen and that this was something similar. I can demonstrate it for you on the Sony KDL-52XBR2 right now and it was only a year or two newer. Ico on PS2 does this with component cables.

I know that the scaler in the 2005FPW wasn't anything fancy, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have some unimplemented capabilities that they failed to test for. It only makes that MORE likely.

 

[Fallen Kell]

Sweet! My everdrive arrived yesterday. I formated the SD card properly and started loading my ROMs. I actually can't wait to play some of them (I never liked emulation, so while I did pickup several of the fan translations of games which never arrived over in the US, I never played them).

 

[Ichinisan]

Sweet! My everdrive arrived yesterday. I formated the SD card properly and started loading my ROMs. I actually can't wait to play some of them (I never liked emulation, so while I did pickup several of the fan translations of games which never arrived over in the US, I never played them).

"Wonder Project J2" will be a good place to start. In Japan, it was a launch-window title. Watch the whole story and listen to the epic music.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_WuzOFzXD6s

 

[Ichinisan]

CZroe is selling our rare N64 controllers on eBay:

• Extreme Green (boxed, Toys R Us exclusive)
• Gold (brand new, sealed, Toys R Us exclusive)
• DK64 banana yellow (brand new, unused, Nintendo Power subscription bonus)

I didn't want to sell them because I've always considered myself a collector of rare/unusual controllers.

After some buyer questions, we came to find out that the sealed Funtastic series controllers we haven't listed yet might actually be far more valuable.

 

[Ichinisan]

Just found out: The buyer who purchased the new/unused DK64 banana controller for over $220 is going to remove the bag and ties (I think he already has) and actually play with it.

 

[Fallen Kell]

Just found out: The buyer who purchased the new/unused DK64 banana controller for over $220 is going to remove the bag and ties (I think he already has) and actually play with it.

I use my DK64 controller all the time

 

[Ichinisan]

I use my DK64 controller all the time

I'm the original owner of the new/unused one that I sold.

I also found a used one (don't remember if it was a flea market find or a thrift store find). I still have that. I still won't use it because I don't want to add any wear to the stick on a rare / collectible controller.

 

[Fallen Kell]

Well, unfortunately, it was always my favorite controller, so it has the most wear of any of the ones I own, but not to the point that it isn't playable (the centering is just a little loose). I've been meaning to take it apart and repair it using this method:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEJmSQjONRg

I believe I posted previously that I received the lube. I only placed it on one of my gray controllers to see if it reacts with the plastic in anyway. So far, it hasn't (I didn't expect it to, but you never know with plastic and lubricants). I wanted to give it a couple weeks to see if I can see any reaction occurring, and if there isn't one, I plan on fixing the DK controller.

 

[Dude111]

Any hard core retro gamers here? I mean serious RGB elitists?

Me definetly!!!!

I love early 80s games ONLY .. Much better than the garbage made now!!

Atari 2600,Coleco and Arcade games...... NOTHING BETTER!!

 

[Ichinisan]

Me definetly!!!!

I love early 80s games ONLY .. Much better than the garbage made now!!

Atari 2600,Coleco and Arcade games...... NOTHING BETTER!!

NES is where it's at! Your era crashed the video game market and nearly killed gaming for everyone.

Well, Atari 2600 was my first

I wonder how hard it will be to build a homebrew cart for Atari 2600...? I'd like to try my hand at Atari homebrew. A Tetris clone might be a start. I'd also like to see just how "impossible" it really is to make a psuedo-scrolling platformer.

 

[Ichinisan]

Higane (formerly "BSNES") has a reputation as the most accurate emulator by far...at least, for the systems it supports.

I tried to play some SNES games on it. It's hard to describe, but it just didn't feel right at all. It felt like the controls had variable latency and the display was sometimes a bit jerky. I was playing on a high-end PC.

Connecting an old game system, even on a newer display, feels far more authentic.

I've been following N64 emulation since UltraHLE. It's still a tragic mess.

 

[Fallen Kell]

For those watching, Kevtris's HDMI NES mod might be out soon. GametechUS stopped taking new mod work to clear out all his existing backlog in anticipation of the release.