Reverse flow. US is discussing natural resource export to China/Asian nations.

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bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
Pretty sure that increasing exports is a huge step in the right direction as far as recovery goes.

Not sure how this could be seen as a bad thing.

Goods flow toward wealth. When we were wealthy, goods flowed here. If goods are now flowing the opposite direction, I don't see how this could be seen as a good thing. For us anyway.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,711
34,590
136
The problem is that those systems almost always suck and there's no way to fix it.

I'll give an example. I live on the north side of the river and my job is on the south side of the river. The city has maybe 10 bridges that go across the river. The most direct path to work is fairly short, maybe 10 miles or so. The direct path also crosses several major roads and takes the most time, about 1.5 hours to get to work. The fastest way to get to work is to travel to the edge of the city and drive on the road that circles around the city. The distance is 30 miles and it takes about 45 minutes.
My city's transit system has an application on their website that helps plan bus trips by telling which bus to take and how long the trip will take. If I put in that I need to arrive at 8am, it says there is no possible way I can do this. If I enter that I intend to leave my house at 7am (peak bus service), it estimates the trip as taking 2 hours and 10 minutes. It involves taking 2 buses, then taking the train across the river, then taking a third bus after that.

So then what if I didn't want to travel and just decided to move closer? No can do. Offices are generally located in prime real estate locations. Downtown is the absolute worst for price, but my office isn't downtown. My office is a 1 floor building near the $400,000 houses. If I stop driving to work and just move closer, I save $1000-2000 per year on gas, but my rent would go up by about $4,000 at the very minimum. It would be a nicer place to live, but it's still money I don't have.



edit:
in before some retard says I should buy a $30,000 hybrid car to save money.

In your case I'd be looking at a diesel engined car. Better MPG than your current for less cost than a hybrid.

Your case highlights the issues with office space outside of concentrated business districts in the context of suburban sprawl. Since much of these can never be served adequately with any form of mass transit, regardless of the investment, the people who work in those kind of offices will forever be chained to their cars.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
In your case I'd be looking at a diesel engined car. Better MPG than your current for less cost than a hybrid.
I would love a diesel engine. Right now I think Volkswagen is the only company that sells those. Of all the companies that make cars, why does it need to be a VW :'(

When you buy a Honda, they will start sending these weird quarterly magazines about the company. A few years ago that magazine mentioned something about them working on a clean diesel car. Did they just abandon that idea or something? I liked that idea. I would seriously consider buying a diesel made by Honda if they would get their shit together and build one.



Your case highlights the issues with office space outside of concentrated business districts in the context of suburban sprawl. Since much of these can never be served adequately with any form of mass transit, regardless of the investment, the people who work in those kind of offices will forever be chained to their cars.
The good news is that we're planning to relocate downtown. Since I live in the city, a 2 bus trip will get me right to the door and it only costs about $80 per month. The rest of the people are pissed off because this means paying through the nose for parking since they live in the suburbs. What we really need is some kind of park and ride system where people could drive to the outside of the city then take express buses or trains downtown. The city has 2 stations like this, but there's never enough parking for it to be done properly.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,711
34,590
136
I would love a diesel engine. Right now I think Volkswagen is the only company that sells those. Of all the companies that make cars, why does it need to be a VW :'(

When you buy a Honda, they will start sending these weird quarterly magazines about the company. A few years ago that magazine mentioned something about them working on a clean diesel car. Did they just abandon that idea or something? I liked that idea. I would seriously consider buying a diesel made by Honda if they would get their shit together and build one.




The good news is that we're planning to relocate downtown. Since I live in the city, a 2 bus trip will get me right to the door and it only costs about $80 per month. The rest of the people are pissed off because this means paying through the nose for parking since they live in the suburbs. What we really need is some kind of park and ride system where people could drive to the outside of the city then take express buses or trains downtown. The city has 2 stations like this, but there's never enough parking for it to be done properly.

BMW and Audi also sell diesel models here now, hopefully more companies will start in the next few years. The new VW Jetta actually looks pretty nice and the TDI model gets 32/40 ....not too shabby for $22K

Basically your city needs a real commuter rail system to service downtown with parking at the suburban stations. It is highly unfortunate that most cities abandoned the systems they had back in the 50s and 60s since these services had already been established.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
The new VW Jetta actually looks pretty nice and the TDI model gets 32/40 ....not too shabby for $22K
The reason nobody wants a VW is because they have extremely high cost of ownership. Electrical gremlins that never go away, motors that burn out within a year, sensors that burn out and require the engine to be pulled. Readings the complaints on edmunds shows what the repair issues are:
http://www.edmunds.com/volkswagen/jetta/2009/consumer-reviews.html?sub=diesel


Related to this topic, it might make sense to get started on biodiesel production so that can exported to the chinese when the time is right. It's better to be a pioneer in the market than play catch up.
 

jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
9
81
The problem is that those systems almost always suck and there's no way to fix it.

I'll give an example. I live on the north side of the river and my job is on the south side of the river. The city has maybe 10 bridges that go across the river. The most direct path to work is fairly short, maybe 10 miles or so. The direct path also crosses several major roads and takes the most time, about 1.5 hours to get to work. The fastest way to get to work is to travel to the edge of the city and drive on the road that circles around the city. The distance is 30 miles and it takes about 45 minutes.
My city's transit system has an application on their website that helps plan bus trips by telling which bus to take and how long the trip will take. If I put in that I need to arrive at 8am, it says there is no possible way I can do this. If I enter that I intend to leave my house at 7am (peak bus service), it estimates the trip as taking 2 hours and 10 minutes. It involves taking 2 buses, then taking the train across the river, then taking a third bus after that.

So then what if I didn't want to travel and just decided to move closer? No can do. Offices are generally located in prime real estate locations. Downtown is the absolute worst for price, but my office isn't downtown. My office is a 1 floor building near the $400,000 houses. If I stop driving to work and just move closer, I save $1000-2000 per year on gas, but my rent would go up by about $4,000 at the very minimum. It would be a nicer place to live, but it's still money I don't have.



edit:
in before some retard says I should buy a $30,000 hybrid car to save money.

First gen and early second gen hybrids go for less than a third of that. There was a first gen Prius selling for $3000 near me. I was tempted to buy it.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,711
34,590
136
The reason nobody wants a VW is because they have extremely high cost of ownership. Electrical gremlins that never go away, motors that burn out within a year, sensors that burn out and require the engine to be pulled. Readings the complaints on edmunds shows what the repair issues are:
http://www.edmunds.com/volkswagen/jetta/2009/consumer-reviews.html?sub=diesel


Related to this topic, it might make sense to get started on biodiesel production so that can exported to the chinese when the time is right. It's better to be a pioneer in the market than play catch up.

They've gotten better in recent years, the early-mid 2000s VW cars are electrical and mechanical nightmares though. If I got one I'd be going for the extended warranty.
 

drebo

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,035
1
81
Goods flow toward wealth. When we were wealthy, goods flowed here. If goods are now flowing the opposite direction, I don't see how this could be seen as a good thing. For us anyway.

That makes no sense. Global trade is not a zero-sum game.

If we have no need of a particular good, we see no benefit by keeping it.

So say that goods only ever flow toward wealth is simply not true. It doesn't make any sense, either. Goods do, and will always, flow toward the US. We will always have a need to import goods. But we must balance those imports with exports, otherwise we will bleed wealth.

Wealth is not wealth if it just sits there. This is why economic isolationism (i.e. protectionism) is a bad thing. If we decide tomorrow that we have $15 trillion-billion in our government bank account, is it really wealth if we don't intend on using it? Of course not. Wealth is a representation of buying power, nothing more.

As a country, we cannot gain wealth without exporting. With respect to the United States, domestic trade (me buying a good from a strictly US company) is zero-sum. It neither creates nor destroys wealth, with respect to the United States. If our only trade with the outside world is imports, we are operating below the zero-sum.

Domestic trade does not create wealth for the country, it only bleeds it.

However, if we modify your statement to say "finished goods flow toward wealth," it's a little closer to accurate, but it's still not an all-encompasing statement. But we're not talking about finished goods...we're talking about a raw material that does us no good sitting in warehouses or in the ground. Exports cannot be a bad thing.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Goods flow toward wealth. When we were wealthy, goods flowed here. If goods are now flowing the opposite direction, I don't see how this could be seen as a good thing. For us anyway.
I pretty much agree. Especially with our failing education system, we're at serious risk of becoming a virtual colony, trading raw materials for finished goods we increasingly no longer make. However, there's one big caveat to this. Obama pledged to bankrupt companies that build new coal-fired plants. (Of course, he also promised to support "clean coal", so his exact intentions are up for interpretation.) And due to our depressed economy, we can extract more coal than we need, especially if government is indeed going to prevent us from replacing some imported oil with domestic coal. Given those factors, it makes sense at least in the short term to export coal.

My primary concerns about this are environmental. I've very skeptical about CAGW, but not so much about direct effects of high CO2 levels. Hopefully we'll be selling coal into nations committed to CO2 sequestration or mitigation. (Considering that the USA has such vast reserves of coal, we ought to be leading that research attempt, hopefully to use the carbon as raw materials. Cheap carbon nanotubes and oxygen would certainly be useful.) More importantly, coal extraction and purification are themselves extremely environmentally damaging. Let's hope the government is extremely vigilant on maintaining and even strengthening environmental protection laws and regulations to make sure we don't go backward in this area whilst pursuing exports. Any environmental damage will be here long after the money has been spent.
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,215
11
81

duh, hummer is already dead.

Pointless thread. You've yet to explain why exporting our raw materials is a bad thing, other than "lolllzzopecgasprices!", which isn't really an explanation so much as it is e-vomit.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Well if the government will not let you burn the coal, then export all our high sulfar coal!!!!!! We could open some closed coal mines.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,711
34,590
136
Let's hope the government is extremely vigilant on maintaining and even strengthening environmental protection laws and regulations to make sure we don't go backward in this area whilst pursuing exports. Any environmental damage will be here long after the money has been spent.

To that end mountaintop removal should be explicitly prohibited by law.
 

llee

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2009
1,152
0
76
Instead of pitting China as our enemy, why don't we cooperate and help both economies? It would strengthen our ties as well as potentially easing pressure off of Taiwan and especially onto North Korea.
 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,418
0
0
It has gone from bad to worst for people that aren't ready for the permanent oil overlord. It is not speculator or OPEC that is in the driving seat this time.

China and other developing countries are growing while consumes energy at a rapid rate. China/India/Vietnam are a few countries that have been building new coal / nuclear power plants due to demand, and they also thirst for other natural resources as well, such as rare earth, fertilizer, metals, and oil.

IMHO, take a good look at your last gas guzzler land yacht/SUV/hummer because you will not be able to fill it or manufacture will cease making them.

I think you severely underestimate the metric fuckton of coal that the US is sitting on. It makes Saudi Arabia's oil reserves look like a drop by comparison.
 

iGas

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2009
6,240
1
0
I think you severely underestimate the metric fuckton of coal that the US is sitting on. It makes Saudi Arabia's oil reserves look like a drop by comparison.
I haven't seen many cars that are LNG/LPG/electric power in North America, let alone coal.
 

ebaycj

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2002
5,418
0
0
I haven't seen many cars that are LNG/LPG/electric power in North America, let alone coal.

Right. So why not send/sell some/most/all of the coal that we're not using over to others who will use it, and make money in the process?
 
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