Review of Trumps visit to Brussels

[cytg111]

So, analysis of the visit that ended thursdag evening local time is beginning to tickle in from local sources.
Bottom line is that the US is heading for the "brexit" exit. If the US dont want trade or clima change the EU will continue these efforts with other partners.

- EU support in member states are growing as a result from Brexit, Russia and also current events from the USA.
- EU is recovering from Brexit just fine while Britain is still finding its feet.
- Alternative trade parterships are allready being finalized with Canada, India and Japan, commitment to WTO is total.
- Climate goals remain if not enhanced
- NATO members is also descoping dependence on the US.

Noone knows what the US is up to and thus must prepare for the worst, the messages coming out of the White House, State Department, Pentagon and the Department of Commerce is not of one voice and often in direct contradiction with each other.

For example, Trump was shouting thunder(bad, very bad) at Germany for selling too many cars in the US. What does that actually mean, actions, consequences? Noone knows, his own people included.

My personal take here is that there is a silver lining and its one that I bet the Trump-Putin axis did not consider, due to current state of affairs the EU will pull together, strongly, may even get the EU army up and running. This will not please Putin. When the US normalize and get a real President behind the wheel we will pick it up again and as a result be that much stronger.
We get to rally and pick our shit up.
The US gets to clean house.
We will meet up again in a few years and form an even better team (we may even have picked GB up again).

 

[trenchfoot]

Trump is playing hardball corporate style politics, signaling to the other NATO members that they need to come to Trump's playground and play by his rules or he's going to pick up his toys, kick everybody off the field and go home to await news of their capitulating to his demands.

The problem with that is Trump is not doing this in the interest of the nation proper, he's doing this to show our NATO "Allies" how he is the big gorilla in the house and that everyone should respect (fear) him for the power he holds over their futures. He thinks he needs to position himself in that way so as to have the other NATO members come crawling on their hands and knees and beg for him to bless them with anti-missile systems and that nuclear umbrella they all must sit under.

That's his style and he isn't going to change that style just because everyone (besides his loyal supporter base) hates him for it.

edit - He is going to bully his way through any and all dealings with our European allies giving no quarter in the process, unless he thinks a little honey on the end of the bat he's swinging around will get him what he (we?) wants.

edit - edited for clarification. thanks flexy.

 

[cytg111]

Trump is playing hardball corporate style politics, signaling to the other NATO members that they need to come to Trump's playground and play by his rules or he's going to pick up his toys, kick everybody off the field and go home to await news of their capitulating to his demands.

The problem with that is Trump is not doing this in the interest of the nation proper, he's doing this to show our NATO "Allies" how he is the big gorilla in the house and that everyone should respect (fear) him for the power he holds over their futures. He needs to position himself in that way so as to have the other NATO members come crawling on their hands and knees and beg for him to bless them with anti-missile systems and that nuclear umbrella they all must sit under.

That's his style and he isn't going to change that style just because everyone (besides his loyal supporter base) hates him for it.

edit - He is going to bully his way through any and all dealings with our European allies giving no quarter in the process, unless he thinks a little honey on the end of the bat he's swinging around will get him what he (we?) wants.

I bet he could get something working for him if only he was consistent, that is the entire US apperatus was consistent... it is just not and thus partners are withdrawing, cause there is no way to tell what kind of wheather it will be tomorrow. That is the takeaway. The bullying is not working.. He would literally have to point the nukes towards europe to 'winning' this way.

 

[flexy]

Trump is playing hardball corporate style politics, signaling to the other NATO members that they need to come to Trump's playground and play by his rules or he's going to pick up his toys, kick everybody off the field and go home to await news of their capitulating to his demands.

The problem with that is Trump is not doing this in the interest of the nation proper, he's doing this to show our NATO "Allies" how he is the big gorilla in the house and that everyone should respect (fear) him for the power he holds over their futures. He needs to position himself in that way so as to have the other NATO members come crawling on their hands and knees and beg for him to bless them with anti-missile systems and that nuclear umbrella they all must sit under.

That's his style and he isn't going to change that style just because everyone (besides his loyal supporter base) hates him for it.

edit - He is going to bully his way through any and all dealings with our European allies giving no quarter in the process, unless he thinks a little honey on the end of the bat he's swinging around will get him what he (we?) wants.

You are assuming that many European NATO states would be incredibly, incredibly sad if Trump would "pick up his toys and kick everybody off the field" - but you are mistaken.

I think a large nr. of NATO countries could care less with Americans leaving.

Trump as it seems is still spreading the illusion that this is a one-sided deal, with the great US of A "donating" their men, missiles, soldiers etc. to NATO states and how grateful they are supposed to be for this fortune so they need "to pay". Except it's not a one-sided deal. The benefit of US army presence in Europe is IMHO much more on US side.

 

[jackstar7]

An independently nuclear EU (or member states) is not something I am looking forward to seeing.

 

[trenchfoot]

You are assuming that many European NATO states would be incredibly, incredibly sad if Trump would "pick up his toys and kick everybody off the field" - but you are mistaken.

I think a large nr. of NATO countries could care less with Americans leaving.

Trump as it seems is still spreading the illusion that this is a one-sided deal, with the great US of A "donating" their men, missiles, soldiers etc. to NATO states and how grateful they are supposed to be for this fortune so they need "to pay". Except it's not a one-sided deal. The benefit of US army presence in Europe is IMHO much more on US side.

No such assumption made on my part as what I posted is not my personal assessment of our relationship with our NATO partners. I was referring to what I thought to be Trump's attitude toward our NATO allies and how he thinks he can get what HE wants from them and not at all what the people of America wants from the alliance.

I'm in total agreement with your opinion that Trump sees our relationship with NATO as a one sided deal and that we hold all the "Trump" cards in the alliance, of which I think sort'a supports the point I was attempting to make.

For clarification, I will amend my post from "He needs to position himself in that way....." to "He thinks he needs to position himself in that way..." in order to make the distinction that it's not what I thought he ought to do, but rather what I thought He felt he needed to do to get what he wanted from the other alliance members.

I hope this clears things up a bit. And thanks for pointing that out. :thumbsup:

 

[feralkid]

An independently nuclear EU (or member states) is not something I am looking forward to seeing.

A bit late for that, eh?
France and The U.K. have had them for decades

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

A bit late for that, eh?
France and The U.K. have had them for decades

The UK is as perfidious as the US and France has its own interests outside the EU.

If I were Merkel at this point in time I'd be looking for a strong nuclear deterrent as building a strong conventional to combat Russia isn't feasible.

Thousands of ICBMS aren't necessary, just enough to take out major population centers in Russia and the US. Yep I went there, but this is from the EU perspective, not the US. Trump is a legitimate threat as is the system which allowed his election.

The primary focus would be to develop highly sophisticated tactical nuclear weapons with the lowest possible fallout. Have these move around continually rather than have static targets when possible. Low yield cruise missiles, anything to neutralize Russian troops and equipment. Naturally aircraft will have to be accounted for as well.

Essentially turn the EU into a porcupine that could kill a T. Rex if stepped on.

No I don't want this, but I'm looking at things from what I believe is Merkel's perspective. Europe is no longer safe, nor has a deterrent. It's for the taking.

 

[jackstar7]

A bit late for that, eh?
France and The U.K. have had them for decades

Sorry, I thought it was implied that the proliferation aspect was my concern. My apologies for not being clear enough. If our allies do not trust our shield to protect them... that leads to a lot of issues. The lack of confidence has global impact.

 

[jackstar7]

No I don't want this, but I'm looking at things from what I believe is Merkel's perspective. Europe is no longer safe, nor has a deterrent. It's for the taking.

And if other nations take their cues from Germany (or use it as an excuse) the world becomes exponentially more flammable, and it is directly because of our current president.

 

[cytg111]

And if other nations take their cues from Germany (or use it as an excuse) the world becomes exponentially more flammable, and it is directly because of our current president.

That wont happen, whatever nuclear deterrents that *will* be cooked up will be with an EU army. Mutual assured destruction. What a time to be alive .. Thanks Putin. Thanks Trump.

 

[jackstar7]

That wont happen, whatever nuclear deterrents that *will* be cooked up will be with an EU army. Mutual assured destruction. What a time to be alive .. Thanks Putin. Thanks Trump.

The EU and its members are not the only places watching this power-shift. I expect to see other regions looking on and seeing their time to make the world stage. The next Pakistan/India type cold war is potentially brewing and might make those nations look positively disciplined by comparison.

 

[evident]

make america great again by being a douchebag and turning backs on our allies. dumbass president.

 

[K1052]

The UK is as perfidious as the US and France has its own interests outside the EU.

If I were Merkel at this point in time I'd be looking for a strong nuclear deterrent as building a strong conventional to combat Russia isn't feasible.

Thousands of ICBMS aren't necessary, just enough to take out major population centers in Russia and the US. Yep I went there, but this is from the EU perspective, not the US. Trump is a legitimate threat as is the system which allowed his election.

The primary focus would be to develop highly sophisticated tactical nuclear weapons with the lowest possible fallout. Have these move around continually rather than have static targets when possible. Low yield cruise missiles, anything to neutralize Russian troops and equipment. Naturally aircraft will have to be accounted for as well.

Essentially turn the EU into a porcupine that could kill a T. Rex if stepped on.

No I don't want this, but I'm looking at things from what I believe is Merkel's perspective. Europe is no longer safe, nor has a deterrent. It's for the taking.

I think it's unlikely that Germanys will make nukes. It's too much of a hot potato for them politically. Chip in to buy some made in France for a new EU force to disperse a deterrent in the member countries? Sure, I think that could happen.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I think it's unlikely that Germanys will make nukes. It's too much of a hot potato for them politically. Chip in to buy some made in France for a new EU force to disperse a deterrent in the member countries? Sure, I think that could happen.

Yeah I wasn't clear enough. I didn't mean just Germany but the whole of the EU having a common force, a common currence and defense. The greatest challenge would be political, but technally they are our equals so improvements to French technology would work. MAD in action.

 

[K1052]

Yeah I wasn't clear enough. I didn't mean just Germany but the whole of the EU having a common force, a common currence and defense. The greatest challenge would be political, but technally they are our equals so improvements to French technology would work. MAD in action.

Yea, the biggest hurdle would be designing the command structure and getting the political assent required to implement it. It's not impossible by any means and boy wonder over here is giving them good reason to work on figuring it out which they didn't have before.