RIAA dirty tricks.

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figgypower

Senior member
Jan 1, 2001
247
0
0
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
Well another way to look at this is maybe it wasn't such a great idea for the youth of America to turn into a bunch of thieves.

Nor was it such a great idea for the RIAA to charge me $20+ for a CD with 2 (max) good songs in it.


Edit:
I should add that, sure filesharing may be illegal and it may be evil. Though, why not try to adapt to your surroundings instead of trying to fighting it head on; I mean it's a really useless battle. If the record companies had affordable filesharing plans of their own, minus proprietory formats, I'd jump on them on a heart beat. Hey, I still buy CDs... lots of them, too - i just wait until they come down in price. Why is it useless? As we speak, they're coming out with filesharing software that provides encrpytion and anonymity (sp?) to totally denying the RIAA access (through IP address blocking, etc.) - there's a few addons already available. Everytime the RIAA decides to buy the law, coding will find a work around. Also, this is MY computer that I bought with MY money; it's my private property and unless you have a warrant from a court judge, please don't trespass.
 

kasparov

Member
Dec 14, 2002
166
0
0
Originally posted by: figgypower
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
Well another way to look at this is maybe it wasn't such a great idea for the youth of America to turn into a bunch of thieves.

Nor was it such a great idea for the RIAA to charge me $20+ for a CD with 2 (max) good songs in it.

Actually I think its a case of the pot calling the kettle...

RIAA are the biggest thieves... they've been jipping us for years; constricting the way that we can purchase music; putting a stranglehold
on the industry so that there are just 5 big players; and ripping off artists for many many years.

Calling file-sharers thieves is the height of naiveity. It shows how well the RIAA brainwashing tactics have worked on the general populace.
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
0
0
Let seriously think about what could be lowering the sales of CD's OK?

1. Global economic downturn. People simply have less money to spend on luxuries, and CD's are a luxury

2. More products competing for limited amount of consumer money. DVD's come to mind.

3. Pricing. CD's are way overpriced. I mean, a DVD-movie with extras and all can be had for about the same money as the soundtrack (and nothing but the soundtrack) of that same movie

4. Copy-protection. I can say that I have reduced my CD-purchases by about 90% since copy-protection became common. I will NOT buy copy-protected CD's, and I bet I'm not the only one.

5. The product itself. Majority of todays music suck. Where's the originality? Could it be that people don't buy as many CD's simply because there simply aren't any CD's worth buying?

6. Offered media. RIAA has all but killed singles, forcing consumers to buy more expensive CD's just to get that one good song.

About the price of CD's. I can understand why CD's were as expensive as they were back when C-cassettes dominated. I mean, CD's offered something tapes could not (convenience and superior sound-quality) and they were a new product (production was more expensive, sales were limited). Now they are the standard media for music-distribution and the manufacturing-costs have hit rock-bottom. Yet the price has not come down, why? Like I said, before it was understandable since CD's were a premium-product. But they aren't that anymore. So why is the price still so high, even though sales of CD's are alot bigger than they were before (economics of scale should lower the prices) and the production-cost of a disc can be measured in the pennies?

Honestly, I'm surprised that sales aren't down alot more than they really are!
 

figgypower

Senior member
Jan 1, 2001
247
0
0
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"Uh... no. Sorry, man, law doesn't work that way."

It's exactly how it works. People are supposed to obey the law, not because they might get caught, but because it's the law. Law which is designed to facilitate human interaction and a productive society, in the judgement of the people. If too many people break the law, in the case of P2P because they think they can't get caught, then the laws will be rewritten to make it easier to catch them. The status quo, of rampant piracy, isn't going to be allowed to continue.

In the process freedoms and protections will be lost. I think this is a shame, but the blame for it is the people who cause the current system to break down by breaking the law.

It seems the law has become the golden lamb. I'm sorry, but the truth is that law can be highly unproductive for society. The judgement of the people should be decided by the people; the U.S. court system works this way to a certain degree. The law is not arbitrary. It's also possible that people break the laws, because they think it's outright stupid or pointless.

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
LOL, the drug war isn't meant to be win-win. There are supposed to be losers.

Jail time for downloading mp3s is probably excessive. Just a felony record for 1st timers is probably better.

You've got to be kidding me... in this case, everyone that is taped from the radio and most TV programs would fall under the same law (yes, it's actually illegal to copy from radio and most TV programs).


Edit:
I also read the "existence of murder law" thingy that was going on in this thread. The world is known for pointless and outdated laws; that's what all those "goofy laws" books are all about. Basically, if there were no murderers it might still be illegal.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
"Using that argument, it could be argued that by my not acquiring new music at all, neither by filesharing nor by lawfully purchasing it, is taking financial resources away from those things. You are treading on very dangerous ground here (although unfortunately not a new one in the artistic community). You are trying to make it mandatory to purchase a luxury product, whether you realize it or not. When people don't buy homes, it hurts my business. Should I argue, using your same logic, that it should be mandatory that everyone buy a home??"

I don't know how you got that out of what I said. If a person doesn't acquire something, legally or illegally, they haven't taken anything from anyone. The issue is the acquiring of a product without paying for it, in violation of the rightful owner's wishes.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
"Nor was it such a great idea for the RIAA to charge me $20+ for a CD with 2 (max) good songs in it."

People or companies can try to sell theri property for whatever price they want. The proper response if you don't like the price is not to buy it. The wrong response is to steal it.

"Edit:
I should add that, sure filesharing may be illegal and it may be evil. Though, why not try to adapt to your surroundings instead of trying to fighting it head on; I mean it's a really useless battle. If the record companies had affordable filesharing plans of their own, minus proprietory formats, I'd jump on them on a heart beat. Hey, I still buy CDs... lots of them, too - i just wait until they come down in price. Why is it useless? As we speak, they're coming out with filesharing software that provides encrpytion and anonymity (sp?) to totally denying the RIAA access (through IP address blocking, etc.) - there's a few addons already available. Everytime the RIAA decides to buy the law, coding will find a work around. Also, this is MY computer that I bought with MY money; it's my private property and unless you have a warrant from a court judge, please don't trespass"


If it was up to me to fix this problem my solution would be to try to convince people to stop stealing stuff just because it is wrong to do so. If something is too expensive, live without it. If you read my messages I think I've been consistent in that.

I don't think this is working though, which pisses me off because it is going to lead to less freedom, privacy, and access for everyone. You are just wrong if you think this wide spread theft of property is going to go continue unchallenged.

btw, it's funny that you refer to your money, and your computer, and your private property; a copyrighted piece of music is just as much the property of the copyright holder as your private property is yours. That is why stealing it is a big deal.

 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
"Actually I think its a case of the pot calling the kettle...

RIAA are the biggest thieves... they've been jipping us for years; constricting the way that we can purchase music; putting a stranglehold
on the industry so that there are just 5 big players; and ripping off artists for many many years."

All of that might be true, but it's got nothing to do with the fact that there is a copyright law which gives property rights to the copyright holder and that violating that copyright is stealing.

BTW, I abhor the DMCA. But I realize there has been a very significant change that has taken place with regards to piracy. Piracy has existed for forever, it is the whole reason there even is a copyright law. The significant change that has happened is that piracy has become an acceptable way to acquire copyrighted works for a very large group of people, where in the past it was considered a dishonest act that only a small percentage of people would be involved in.

Anyone with any sense at all can see that this situation cannot continue.
 

MartyMcFly3

Lifer
Jan 18, 2003
11,436
29
91
www.youtube.com
Heres a question... How many of you use such P2P programs to download an Mp3 off a new album to see if you want to buy the album itself? I have found that you can not trust just the BIG hit off a cd that the DJ plays at a radio station to tell you how the rest of the album is going to sound. (Pure Example: Santana's new album. Heard "The Game of Love" and enjoyed it, bought the cd which is ok but not what i was expecting at all so i was let down). I hate buying CDs that i end up having to skip over HALF the tracks because they arent as good. If anything I think that artists are making MORE money off these type of programs. If a friend recommends a group to me, I can download a few tracks to see if its my type of music, instead of wasting $20 to buy a cd that ends up being something I didnt want. If i enjoy what I hear, I will buy the cd. If im mixed, I will wait to see what happens in that band's future. P2P programs got me hooked on the Chili Peppers, and I have BOUGHT every album of theirs. How is that HURTING them? How is that causing Flea to work at a McDonald's flippin burgers? Its not.

Now... Are there people who are using it for piracy so they dont have to spend money on an actual CD? Of course there are. Just like there are those who burn games so they can play them without having to buy it. I mean, there are always a few bad apples in the bunch. However, not everyone is doing that. Not everyone is downloading thousands of Mp3's just because they dont want to buy the album. Even my parents, who are completely AGAINST piracy, use Kazaa for the exact same purpose I mentioned earlier.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
Go to a decent record store and they'll let you listen to a CD before you buy it. I'm not 100% on this but I think Media Play does.
 

MartyMcFly3

Lifer
Jan 18, 2003
11,436
29
91
www.youtube.com
The only thing around where I live (not counting small record stores in the mall) is Borders and Best Buy. Borders lets you sample some music but not every cd, just the most popular ones. same goes with Best Buy.
 

kasparov

Member
Dec 14, 2002
166
0
0
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"Actually I think its a case of the pot calling the kettle...

RIAA are the biggest thieves... they've been jipping us for years; constricting the way that we can purchase music; putting a stranglehold
on the industry so that there are just 5 big players; and ripping off artists for many many years."

All of that might be true, but it's got nothing to do with the fact that there is a copyright law which gives property rights to the copyright holder and that violating that copyright is stealing.

BTW, I abhor the DMCA. But I realize there has been a very significant change that has taken place with regards to piracy. Piracy has existed for forever, it is the whole reason there even is a copyright law. The significant change that has happened is that piracy has become an acceptable way to acquire copyrighted works for a very large group of people, where in the past it was considered a dishonest act that only a small percentage of people would be involved in.

Anyone with any sense at all can see that this situation cannot continue.

DeadParrot this is not meant as a personal attack, but do you work for the music industry or the RIAA? I mean do you have something invested in your opinion.. because most folks out there hate this organization for a very good reason.

You haven't touched upon the fact that the music distribution industry is a defacto oligopoly. That oligopoly status is protected by the millions of dollars of lobbying money. Moreover, there have been previous cases (which I can quote) where the federal government has sued the industry for overpricing of CDs. All such cases, have been quitely settled by the industry.

My position is that I am not advocating a wholesale destruction of copyright law. I purchase all my video games and movies. However, I do support P2P sharing of music because this is a way to break RIAAs stranglehold on the industry. You have to remember, when you download a P2P song, you taking back your money from a well-known thief -- the RIAA and the music industry.

 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"Using that argument, it could be argued that by my not acquiring new music at all, neither by filesharing nor by lawfully purchasing it, is taking financial resources away from those things. You are treading on very dangerous ground here (although unfortunately not a new one in the artistic community). You are trying to make it mandatory to purchase a luxury product, whether you realize it or not. When people don't buy homes, it hurts my business. Should I argue, using your same logic, that it should be mandatory that everyone buy a home??"

I don't know how you got that out of what I said. If a person doesn't acquire something, legally or illegally, they haven't taken anything from anyone. The issue is the acquiring of a product without paying for it, in violation of the rightful owner's wishes.
It's merely the next logical conclusion. Consumer (or non-commercial) piracy does not cause any actual physical loss to the property owners, merely a lack of gain. Non-purchase essentially causes the same thing. Please remember that intellectual property is a non-tangible.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
"DeadParrot this is not meant as a personal attack, but do you work for the music industry or the RIAA? I mean do you have something invested in your opinion.. because most folks out there hate this organization for a very good reason."

Maybe I said this in a different thread. Two reasons..
1. Stealing is bad. For the victim, the perpetrator, and society. I hope I don't have to elaborate on this point.
2. If too many people either think stealing is good, or won't admit that stealing is stealing, then the rest of society has to respond. In this response everyone is going to lose something, privacy, access, convenience ,etc. This pisses me off.

And no I don't work for the RIAA or any entity or business that is affected in any way other than the 2 things above. I will admit that some of my comments might be somewhat over the top in terms of how much I really care about this issue, but that's because I hope people will think about the issue in terms of what it really is. I've heard too much rationalization and denial, which happens probably because most people don't like to admit they are hurting someone or society in general when they break the law.

I can remember as a kid I had a friend who went in the drugstore and stole some candy. I decided to do it too and stole some gum. At first I thought it was cool to get the gum free but the next time I bought some gum I felt better about it and enjoyed it more. Seriously. Of course this was 40 years ago and maybe times were different. I don't really believe that though, and man, I sure hope it isn't true.

That is what worries me. I get the impression that the number of people who feel fine about taking something for free that they are legally supposed to pay for, is growing.
 

figgypower

Senior member
Jan 1, 2001
247
0
0
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch



If it was up to me to fix this problem my solution would be to try to convince people to stop stealing stuff just because it is wrong to do so. If something is too expensive, live without it. If you read my messages I think I've been consistent in that.

I don't think this is working though, which pisses me off because it is going to lead to less freedom, privacy, and access for everyone. You are just wrong if you think this wide spread theft of property is going to go continue unchallenged.

btw, it's funny that you refer to your money, and your computer, and your private property; a copyrighted piece of music is just as much the property of the copyright holder as your private property is yours. That is why stealing it is a big deal.

You're absolutely right that copyrighted music is someone's property not to be stolen or messed with. The RIAA, by breaking into my own private property is basically justifying what they say is wrong. I don't oppose the RIAA or copyrights; they're necessary, and I would want payment for my own property, too. The problem is that the RIAA cannot justfiably go around violation everyone's property, because they suspect a few people of theft. That is absolutely guilty before proven innocent.

I guarantee you that this will not go unchallenged, you're right again. However, where there's a will there's a way. I gaurantee you that any crap the beraucracy (sp?) can come up with, the crackers can come up with a work around. ANY. Until you wholesale murder everyone, there'll be a way. I guarantee it. It's not a "winnable" war.

Meanwhile, I'm not involved in any of this crap, but I will be punished nonetheless? I don't think so.
 

figgypower

Senior member
Jan 1, 2001
247
0
0
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch

Maybe I said this in a different thread. Two reasons..
1. Stealing is bad. For the victim, the perpetrator, and society. I hope I don't have to elaborate on this point.
2. If too many people either think stealing is good, or won't admit that stealing is stealing, then the rest of society has to respond. In this response everyone is going to lose something, privacy, access, convenience ,etc. This pisses me off.

And no I don't work for the RIAA or any entity or business that is affected in any way other than the 2 things above. I will admit that some of my comments might be somewhat over the top in terms of how much I really care about this issue, but that's because I hope people will think about the issue in terms of what it really is. I've heard too much rationalization and denial, which happens probably because most people don't like to admit they are hurting someone or society in general when they break the law.

I can remember as a kid I had a friend who went in the drugstore and stole some candy. I decided to do it too and stole some gum. At first I thought it was cool to get the gum free but the next time I bought some gum I felt better about it and enjoyed it more. Seriously. Of course this was 40 years ago and maybe times were different. I don't really believe that though, and man, I sure hope it isn't true.

That is what worries me. I get the impression that the number of people who feel fine about taking something for free that they are legally supposed to pay for, is growing.

Again, I think that a very important distinction should be made that's not being made. Taking copyrighted work through piracy is NOT legally stealing; ethically, it may be the same thing. Ethically, it's a matter of opinion, and my opinion happens to be that piracy is NOT stealing. You're entitled to your own opinion. Legally, you do not prosecute someone for "stealing" copyrighted works, but "pirating" them. There's a HUGE difference, really: pirating assumes that there is a definite loss that occurred due to stolen creative works.

Though, it's purely hypothetical, because no actual loss occurred. It's a "well, maybe if so and so bought it instead of getting it for free, we would've made money on them." The big assumption is that they would have bought the property, if they couldn't get it for free. This is a rather large assumption, and the courts will side in your favor if your prove that loss has indeed occurred.

I'm making this distinction, because some people use P2P for sampling - a lot of people, actually. They DO NOT have the convenience of listening to a wide variety of songs any other way; be they radio, TV, or the stores. You simply cannot get an idea of certain music - only the most popular. The music industry has, in reality, a very limited venue for sampling music. Do I want to support a good band? Yes. Do I necessarily want the crap that is "popular" at the moment? No. How do I know what's good without sampling? I have no idea. Yes, I DO still buy CDs and DVDs. Why? The quality IS better, the extras you get, plus paying someone for what they deserve. Honestly, half the media I buy I wouldn't buy, because I wouldn't be aware of it.

I do enjoy the creative arts, and I consider it a necessary part of any human being's enrichment. This is why the creative arts have existed since we practically started walking. Unfortunately, the RIAA and the MPAA control a large majority of the creative arts in the U.S. If I decided to boycott them entirely I lose access to a HUGE majoriy of creative works. I don't have money to protest legally, and peaceful protests have gone in vain (letters, campaigns, petitions, etc.). I need them to realize what I want, and they do not want to realize my needs. Any efficent business suits to the customer's needs, but the media giants make us suit to their needs.
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
0
0
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"DeadParrot this is not meant as a personal attack, but do you work for the music industry or the RIAA? I mean do you have something invested in your opinion.. because most folks out there hate this organization for a very good reason."

Maybe I said this in a different thread. Two reasons..
1. Stealing is bad. For the victim, the perpetrator, and society. I hope I don't have to elaborate on this point.

Downloading mp3's from Kazaa (for example) is not stealing.

2. If too many people either think stealing is good, or won't admit that stealing is stealing, then the rest of society has to respond.

Stealing is stealing, and downlaoding mp3's is not stealing. It's copyright infringment which is against the law, but it is NOT stealing
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
"Stealing is stealing, and downlaoding mp3's is not stealing. It's copyright infringment which is against the law, but it is NOT stealing "

Copyright infringement is stealing. You're making a distinction with no meaning.



 

TheDisenchanted

Junior Member
Mar 10, 2003
2
0
0
I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in.

First: The only artists that are effected by p2p are the same artists that charge $50+ for concert tickets for 30k+ people at a time.
solution: Bands tour but allow the music do be downloaded for a good price i saw 3 dollars earlier that ok, and\or charge less for CD's.
Small and Local bands have relied on word of mouth and copied albums for quite a while, and their concerts only cost (around here at least) 5-15 for 2-5 bands. Maybe there can be a sloution to help smaller bands make more money and get their albums heard, and help consumers buy more albums of "star" bands at a lower price.

Second: p2p as i see it is not a bad thing, once my bands music is finished i wanna put at least a few tracks online with a tag showing my email address
so people who wanna buy a full album (15 songs $5 for a burned copy, or $10 once we get them pressed ourselves, not bad pricing IMHO)

Third: I can see how the Record companys want to make a profit but they just need to re-think the way they are doing it, the times they are a changing and the method of buying and selling needs to change as well.

If CD's cost less then maybe i would'nt be as hurt when 10 out of 14 songs suck, or if i could DL the album for a descent price then hey.

ok im done
 

LethalWolfe

Diamond Member
Apr 14, 2001
3,679
0
0
Originally posted by: Jeff7
I still love what I saw in the letters section of MaximumPC - someone wrote in there (I'll say this as best as I can remember it was stated in the letter, as I don't have the issue handy) and brought up how there's a public place you can go to view copyrighted information as much as you want, and you may only need a card with a small fee to do so. You can take these copyrighted works home with you for weeks and view them, without giving the original creators a cent. Perhaps we should eliminate libraries as well?

Your analogy is flawed. You are comparing viewing copyrighted material and/or renting it vs illegally copying it. Reading a book in the library is legal. Photocopying that entire book for personal use is illegal.

Can you legally make copies of the copyrighted materials for personal use and/or purposes that do not fall w/in Fair Use (see my post at the top of page 2 of this thread)? No.


Triumph,
1. AFAIK you can still legally make back-up copies of CDs you own for your own personal use. But that DOES NOT fall under Fair Use. What you are describing and Fair Use are both legal, but they two different rights. It's like argueing for free speech by citing the 4th Amendment. Yes you have freedom of speech but no it's not covered by the 4th Amendment. Yes you can copy your CDs for personal use, but no that's not covered under Fair Use.

2. If a magazine chooses to publish it's articles on-line for free they can because as the copyright holders of those articles they can dicate how they can and cannot be used, copied, etc. If a magazine chooses not to publish it's articles on the web but I choose to scan the entire hardcopy and post it on my website for free w/o permission I am violating that magazines copyright by distrubiting their articles w/o their consent.

Kasparov,
Do you just not understand Fair Use or are you choosing to ignore it because the reality of Fair Use conflicts with your fantasy version of Fair use?


Lethal
 
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