Right back on the Union Crazy Train....

[Pulsar]

Once upon a time, Ford was in trouble. Serious trouble. So were GM, and Chrysler. So Union benefits were 'cut'. We heard a lot of screaming about that. There was a lot of talk about how salaried folks needed to share the sacrifice.

Salaried headcount was reduced. Substantially. Multiple rounds of firings occurred. Not just lay-offs. Flat out firings. Pensions were removed. Completely. Any salaried hire who came in after 2001 lost their pensions completely. Medical care was chopped, co-pays and yearly costs quadrupled.

That never happened in the Union ranks. Sure, folks were laid off. Between the company, unemployment, and sub-pay, those folks who were laid off made about 85% of their salary. Many were double-dipping, working under-the-counter jobs that were untaxed, and ended up making more than when they worked here. But the large-scale retirements due to excellent buy-out programs resulted in almost every single one of them returning to work Their co-pays went up a bit. They didn't lose pensions. Their health care is far superior to the salaried system.

Now, we're back in the black. Ford is making money, and posted another huge gain. They're out of debt (25 billion cash, 10 billion debt) and have paid off all the loans they took out to save themselves. So they're giving out bonuses. An average of $8600 per union employee. The salaried bonus? Well... the 'target' bonus was $5000. Despite the huge earnings, internally to the company we're being billed as having not met targets. So the actual salaried share is going to be well under $5k. In fact, probably about half that.

So, right about now you're probably getting all wound up to write a nasty 'stop your whining' post. A nice 'you're getting a bonus and many others aren't' post. But if you do that, you'll completely miss the point.

I'm salaried. I look over at the Union and see what they make, and I realize that without them I wouldn't be getting anything. I wouldn't have health care, I wouldn't have a bonus. I wouldn't have even the company match on our stock.

So I'm glad for the Union. Sure, they perpetuate stupidty. They retain workers who don't deserve it. At the same time, however, they force upper management to maintain some small sense of fairness and at least a half way decent pay scale.

Thanks guys. I may not like you, but it's pretty obvious we need you.

 

[waggy]

/facepalm

 

[Mean MrMustard]

/facepalm

This.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

"I see whats wrong with unions, but we need unions. I don't know why"

 

[TeeJay1952]

I was reading this and was getting ready to say "Look at what union living provides." but you got to it yourself. Union workers have what ails the rest of the country:
Pension
Medical Care
Good wage
and the ever important other side of the equation to Management. Unions are not always right but they are always necessary.

 

[Oldgamer]

If were not for unions we wouldn't have most of the workers rights we have today. You wouldn't get benefits, you wouldn't get "breaks" during the workday, or paid vacation, or sick days, or a lunch hour, you wouldn't get paid for overtime. Folks ought to read up on the history of Unions. Personally I am in favor of collective bargaining and worker rights, and I support unions.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

If were not for unions we wouldn't have most of the workers rights we have today. You wouldn't get benefits, you wouldn't get "breaks" during the workday, or paid vacation, or sick days, or a lunch hour, you wouldn't get paid for overtime. Folks ought to read up on the history of Unions. Personally I am in favor of collective bargaining and worker rights, and I support unions.

If it weren't for the mentally handicapped retards such as yourself, we wouldn't be able to misinterpret previous meanings/accomplishments of worker unions to the pathetic group of imbeciles that we have today.

 

[thraashman]

If were not for unions we wouldn't have most of the workers rights we have today. You wouldn't get benefits, you wouldn't get "breaks" during the workday, or paid vacation, or sick days, or a lunch hour, you wouldn't get paid for overtime. Folks ought to read up on the history of Unions. Personally I am in favor of collective bargaining and worker rights, and I support unions.

Exactly. Most things unions do are actually very good things. The main thing that unions do that pisses people off and I think they need to drop is the excessive protection of union employees who fail to perform.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Once upon a time, Ford was in trouble. Serious trouble. So were GM, and Chrysler. So Union benefits were 'cut'. We heard a lot of screaming about that. There was a lot of talk about how salaried folks needed to share the sacrifice.

Salaried headcount was reduced. Substantially. Multiple rounds of firings occurred. Not just lay-offs. Flat out firings. Pensions were removed. Completely. Any salaried hire who came in after 2001 lost their pensions completely. Medical care was chopped, co-pays and yearly costs quadrupled.

That never happened in the Union ranks. Sure, folks were laid off. Between the company, unemployment, and sub-pay, those folks who were laid off made about 85% of their salary. Many were double-dipping, working under-the-counter jobs that were untaxed, and ended up making more than when they worked here. But the large-scale retirements due to excellent buy-out programs resulted in almost every single one of them returning to work Their co-pays went up a bit. They didn't lose pensions. Their health care is far superior to the salaried system.

Now, we're back in the black. Ford is making money, and posted another huge gain. They're out of debt (25 billion cash, 10 billion debt) and have paid off all the loans they took out to save themselves. So they're giving out bonuses. An average of $8600 per union employee. The salaried bonus? Well... the 'target' bonus was $5000. Despite the huge earnings, internally to the company we're being billed as having not met targets. So the actual salaried share is going to be well under $5k. In fact, probably about half that.

So, right about now you're probably getting all wound up to write a nasty 'stop your whining' post. A nice 'you're getting a bonus and many others aren't' post. But if you do that, you'll completely miss the point.

I'm salaried. I look over at the Union and see what they make, and I realize that without them I wouldn't be getting anything. I wouldn't have health care, I wouldn't have a bonus. I wouldn't have even the company match on our stock.

So I'm glad for the Union. Sure, they perpetuate stupidty. They retain workers who don't deserve it. At the same time, however, they force upper management to maintain some small sense of fairness and at least a half way decent pay scale.

Thanks guys. I may not like you, but it's pretty obvious we need you.

Maybe try working with employees that aren't shitty, and you won't care if they are union or not.

 

[Pulsar]

"I see whats wrong with unions, but we need unions. I don't know why"

I see what's wrong with the bailouts, but they were a net positive.

I see what's wrong with free speech, but it's a net positive.

I see what's wrong with medicare and mediacaid for the elderly, but it's a net positive.

There are a whole lot of systems, hell, every system in the world has problems. Taken as a whole, though, many are systems that we need and that are a net positive.

Unions are the same. I don't like many of the things they do, but in the end they are a necessary evil and a counterbalance to what would happen if they weren't in place. Care to add anything intelligent to the conversation?

 

[Pulsar]

Maybe try working with employees that aren't shitty, and you won't care if they are union or not.

Actually, I'm salaried. My co-workers are salaried. None of us are 'shitty'. But if you have another strawman, go for it.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I see what's wrong with the bailouts, but they were a net positive.

I see what's wrong with free speech, but it's a net positive.

I see what's wrong with medicare and mediacaid for the elderly, but it's a net positive.

There are a whole lot of systems, hell, every system in the world has problems. Taken as a whole, though, many are systems that we need and that are a net positive.

Unions are the same. I don't like many of the things they do, but in the end they are a necessary evil and a counterbalance to what would happen if they weren't in place. Care to add anything intelligent to the conversation?

Yes, actually. Unions are down to about 10% of the workforce. They previously had a use when people were mining coal in 110 degree+ weather for over 12 hours, now they are the sack of shit of society.

Care to add anything intelligent to the conversation?

 

[Pulsar]

Yes, actually. Unions are down to about 10% of the workforce. They previously had a use when people were mining coal in 110 degree+ weather for over 12 hours, now they are the sack of shit of society.

Care to add anything intelligent to the conversation?

*chuckle*. No, your post speaks volumes about your rational thinking.

FYI, if you think the really horrid jobs in this country simply disappeared because of the unions, and that no one still works in horrible positions, your reasoning is even more tenuous than I thought.

Roads still get built in Texas in the summer. The power grid still gets fixed in rain, snow, and horrid weather. Engine blocks still get cast in unconditioned casting plants.

Your strawman is stupid. Nasty jobs are still out there. The only reason people who do them are compensated at a reasonable rate is because of Unions. Again, I may not like them, but they are needed.

 

[DaveSimmons]

For independents, the world isn't black and white. Unions do some good even though many need reforming.

If you drink the extremist right-wing kool-aid, 21st century unions are 100% worthless, and even without collective bargaining the "job creators" will continue to offer fair wages with good benefits to everyone.

That's true for a minority of workers with in-demand skills who can easily find work elsewhere. Not so true for the rest of you.

Yhen you're at the mercy of companies like Wal-mart, which used state welfare services instead of offering their own health benefits. If it's good enough for the homeless, it's good enough for their workers.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

For independents, the world isn't black and white. Unions do some good even though many need reforming.

If you drink the extremist right-wing kool-aid, 21st century unions are 100% worthless, and even without collective bargaining the "job creators" will continue to offer fair wages with good benefits to everyone.

That's true for a minority of workers with in-demand skills who can easily find work elsewhere. Not so true for the rest of you.

Yhen you're at the mercy of companies like Wal-mart, which used state welfare services instead of offering their own health benefits. If it's good enough for the homeless, it's good enough for their workers.

And what is wrong with supply/demand of your skills dictating your worth? Are you - as a human - worth more just by the fact that you're a human?

Shhhh: I heard through the underground you can learn more skills. Don't tell anyone that secret though!

 

[waggy]

For independents, the world isn't black and white. Unions do some good even though many need reforming.

If you drink the extremist right-wing kool-aid, 21st century unions are 100% worthless, and even without collective bargaining the "job creators" will continue to offer fair wages with good benefits to everyone.

That's true for a minority of workers with in-demand skills who can easily find work elsewhere. Not so true for the rest of you.

Yhen you're at the mercy of companies like Wal-mart, which used state welfare services instead of offering their own health benefits. If it's good enough for the homeless, it's good enough for their workers.

my opinion is that Unions have lost sight of what they are and have gotten overly greedy. To the point they don't care if the put the business into bankruptcy.

should they be demolished? no. but major reform is needed. There is a huge reason why union membership has fallen.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

my opinion is that Unions have lost sight of what they are and have gotten overly greedy. To the point they don't care if the put the business into bankruptcy.

should they be demolished? no. but major reform is needed. There is a huge reason why union membership has fallen.

Lets not forget corruption from within as well.

Oh those good ol' union due's. Boy oh boy I'm sure everyone loves paying those.

 

[waggy]

Lets not forget corruption from within as well.

Oh those good ol' union due's. Boy oh boy I'm sure everyone loves paying those.

yeah i did forget to mention corruption.

union due's? part of being in a union. IF the union actually looks out for you great. the UAW does that. a friend of mine worked as a cashier at a grocery store. She paid something like $4 a week in dues. the union did NOTHING for her. no protection nothing.

 

[sm625]

Ford had been doing battle with the union before the meat of the crisis hit in 2008, so that benefited them handsomely. And keep in mind that they are not fighting against a public union. The game totally changes when you're dealing with public unions vs something like a UAW. The taxpayer is never represented in negotiations with a public union, which is why they should be outlawed. You cannot collectively bargain with the taxpayers.

 

[Pneumothorax]

Don't really have a problem with private sector unions. If they get too greedy they take down the company down with them or the prices are too high so no one buys the product/service. My beef is with the shitty public service unions who basically have all the Dems bending over for them on a daily basis, raise their benefits for unsustainable levels, and then when it all comes crashing down expect the public to bail them out. And before you bust out 'well the bankers did it too!', those twits should've been hanged in public on Park Ave as an example.

Ford had been doing battle with the union before the meat of the crisis hit in 2008, so that benefited them handsomely. And keep in mind that they are not fighting against a public union. The game totally changes when you're dealing with public unions vs something like a UAW. The taxpayer is never represented in negotiations with a public union, which is why they should be outlawed. You cannot collectively bargain with the taxpayers.

Yup, not to mention you're not forced to go to jail when you don't buy a Ford. But refuse to pay your state income tax, you'll have said public 'Union Members' ready to throw your ass in jail at a moment's notice.

 

[Oldgamer]

If it weren't for the mentally handicapped retards such as yourself, we wouldn't be able to misinterpret previous meanings/accomplishments of worker unions to the pathetic group of imbeciles that we have today.

Wow, resort to name calling and hostility.. nice

Yes, actually. Unions are down to about 10% of the workforce. They previously had a use when people were mining coal in 110 degree+ weather for over 12 hours, now they are the sack of shit of society.

Care to add anything intelligent to the conversation?

Wrong, their benefits to workers went far beyond just “coal mining”.. you don’t seem to be adding much intelligent conversation to this thread other than ad hominen attacks and resorting to insults.

my opinion is that Unions have lost sight of what they are and have gotten overly greedy. To the point they don't care if the put the business into bankruptcy.

should they be demolished? no. but major reform is needed. There is a huge reason why union membership has fallen.

Unions memberships have dramatically decreased because according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics there were new laws implemented that rolled back the power of unions like in Wisconsin, Indiana, and many other states and the continued expansion by manufacturers like Boeing and Volkswagen in nonunion states and the growth of sectors like retail and restaurants where unions have very little presence.

In the BLS statistics they found that drops in union memberships primarily in two groups where unions have long been strong: local government employees and manufacturing workers.

Also the laws passed in 2011 like in Wisonsin curbed the collective bargaining rights of many public employees, and so many states have moved to “right-to-work” law that has prompted many workers to have to drop their union memberships.

These laws in the right to work states prohibit requiring employees at unionized workplaces to pay any union dues or fees. In essence you can be a part of the union and reap all the benefits but don’t have to contribute, which basically destroys a unions ability to offer the benefits to it’s members. Without the dues you don’t have the legal representation and many other benefits that cost the unions money to provide. Those laws were passed in some of these states that had strong unionization to break them down and make them inoperative. Most of the public sector workers decided to quit their unions after the Republican legislature in their states stripped them of most of their bargaining rights. I mean whats the point then? If a union can’t represent you and help with bargaining worker rights for you?

There are a lot of myths surrounding unions most of which are false, but so many people who are not familiar with unions and how they work have been given distorted facts by some media outlets and those who adamantly oppose unions, like say Walmart that would like to keep its employees at below minimum wages with no benefits.

If you want to read on some of the common misconceptions about unions you can go to this blog site that lays out some pretty good information.
http://www.hawaflcio.org/misconceptions.html

Or do your own search and you will come up with quite a bit.

 

[Anarchist420]

Unions suck; they shift the burden from person A to person B. They don't do any good.

A major problem is the minimum wage which is probably about to go up and that will make it an even bigger problem. I'd be willing to work for $3 an hour depending on the job. Too bad no one may give me a job at that rate.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Actually, I'm salaried. My co-workers are salaried. None of us are 'shitty'. But if you have another strawman, go for it.

Eh, misunderstood me, but I'll fault my own language.

I was intending to say that it shouldn't matter if employees are union or not. What matters is if they are good employees. I think you'd find just as many people who are equally frustrated as you are thrilled to have to rely on union work.

 

[Sonikku]

Most of those companies shouldn't even be open for business today, they should have gone under long ago. What's with all these large government bailouts over the past century? Government needs to get out of business and let Capitalism's will be done.

 

[Acanthus]

And what is wrong with supply/demand of your skills dictating your worth? Are you - as a human - worth more just by the fact that you're a human?

Shhhh: I heard through the underground you can learn more skills. Don't tell anyone that secret though!

Because when one small group controls either side of the supply/demand equation, efficiency goes out the window.

You can preach on about unskilled labor all you want, but the fact is, minimum wage is 25% less than it was 20 years ago. There are a huge swath of Americans working for under $10 an hour. This is not a livable wage, even at full time, in a lot of places.