RIP Gamers, not even the 1080 Ti will save you now.

[zinfamous]

I'll stay with my predictions that have been right for every single release from the 7970 till now, thanks.

And a heads up in case you didn't know, I'm talking about Intel's >>own<< dedicated GPUs.

The Intel cpu connected to VEGA via 8x PCI-E 3.0; using EMIB to connect VEGA to HBM2 was Raja's resume.

So Intel is going to build a discreet GPU division from nothing that outcompetes and destroys AMD, by hiring the guy that supposedly is responsible for making crap GPUs and somehow destroying AMD's future in the GPU world.

Your argument is weird.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

Just buy a Star Wars Edition Titan XP for $1138 straight from nVIDIA.

Hmmmm, pay $1100 plus the price of the rest of the computer, say $1800.- OR buy a Xbox/PlayStation, a dozen new titles, and still have a stack of cash left over. Decisions decisions.......

 

[AdamK47]

Hmmmm, pay $1100 plus the price of the rest of the computer, say $1800.- OR buy a Xbox/PlayStation, a dozen new titles, and still have a stack of cash left over. Decisions decisions.......

Sure, if you don't mind playing on an inferior system.

 

[sze5003]

I guess it sucks to need a gpu right now. Glad I bought one when I didn't really need it. It still took me a long time to find one because of stock issues..about 2 months until I got the one I wanted.

 

[zubbs1]

So many butthurt entitled whiners in here. You had plenty of time to buy a video card at or below MSRP. This "mining fad" hasn't been for a long time and isn't going away, also the run-up in prices didn't happen overnight. Don't blame AMD and Nvidia's other customers because they demand them for mining. Gamers have no more right to a video card than a miner does. If you really want to blame someone other than yourself for sitting on your hands when these cards were at MSRP for months, blame the companies who ignored all the obvious signs of increased demand. The hatred here is unwarranted. A gamer is no more entitled to a GPU than a miner.

I may be wrong, but I seem to recall that historically a video card depreciates over time as newer technology is expected to step into the space that video card occupies. The gtx 670 was replaced by the gtx770 and so on. How is it unreasonable to assume that over an 18-24 month life cycle of a video card sold by a retailer that you wouldn't see it reduce in price? I am not an early adopter, I generally like to wait around a year or so before I buy into something. I like to know that something is play tested thoroughly before I spend my money.

I'm sorry, but your statement seems to assume that I value my hard earned money less than someone else who has different intended purposes for using the video card. As I said before, it would be nice if they could segregate the product into two branches so that we aren't seeing hyper inflated "value" added to a gpu because of a cryptocurrency bubble. Just because we have discovered something new to use a graphic proccessing unit for doesn't negate that its original purpose was to process graphics and render them onto a display. I'm not butthurt, I'm just perplexed why people chase bubble after bubble, and am sad that their chasing has now distinctly impacted my intentions.

Cheers.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

Sure, if you don't mind playing on an inferior system.

Agreed but at some point you gotta ask yourself if the extra moneys are worth it. For me, that's a big NOPE.

 

[SMOGZINN]

I'm just perplexed why people chase bubble after bubble

Because it is a chance to make butt loads of money.

 

[whm1974]

Because it is a chance to make butt loads of money.

Also known as gambling...

 

[PeterScott]

So many butthurt entitled whiners in here. You had plenty of time to buy a video card at or below MSRP. This "mining fad" hasn't been for a long time and isn't going away, also the run-up in prices didn't happen overnight. Don't blame AMD and Nvidia's other customers because they demand them for mining. Gamers have no more right to a video card than a miner does. If you really want to blame someone other than yourself for sitting on your hands when these cards were at MSRP for months, blame the companies who ignored all the obvious signs of increased demand. The hatred here is unwarranted. A gamer is no more entitled to a GPU than a miner.

How did I have time? I planned to build a complete new PC in the new year. Should I have known the future, and bought a GPU months before I was ready to build my new system?

So don't insult people for looking to buy a single gaming card when they need/want one.

Coin miners are the ones wrecking the supply and pricing structure of GPUs, not gamers. They are crux of the problem, not gamers.

Also coin mining in it's current form, will hit the wall at some point. The more people that get in on the action, the more the work units get adjusted, so each card produces less income. Eventually it will have so many people involved that the returns will only make sense for high volume players with cheap electricity. Of course kids in their parent basement with "free" electricity can also keep chasing those minimal returns, keeping the income/card low.

To say nothing of the pop, when crypto-coins themselves face a massive devaluation when the whole crazy bubble pops, because ultimately nothing supports the value of crypto-coins except new players rushing into the get rich quick scheme (seen Ponzi).

 

[Despoiler]

People seem to keep forgetting that Intel has access to all of NVidia GPU patents into 2017.

Also consider that patents usually get filed well before the features make it into products, so Intel likely has patent access to NVidia features that are yet to come to market.

Intel has no patent issues with building a GPU.

Intel does not have access to Nvidia's full IP. They only licensed the elemental patents required to make a GPU. Intel can only try to improve what they've built to date.

 

[Madpacket]

I disagree, it take time to save money for purchasing items as I didn't have the funds to buy a 1070 last year. And this mining bubble is causing out of stock products and high prices for gamers, which is why we are complaining about this.

You make the argument it takes more time now to save up buying a 1070, and while that's true, that same logic also applies to the miners. Miners also have to save up more money (just like gamers) to buy new cards.

This is an example of the entitlement I'm talking about.

Mining isn't a bubble (the price of different cryptocurrencies is bubbly sure), and that's what gamers (and AMD/Nvidia to a large degree) are failing to understand. The demand for cards from miners moves in fairly obvious patterns. When crypto prices crash for a sustained period of time, or once the mining difficulty catches up with price (quickly happening right now) the demand for mining cards decrease dramatically, which in turn, lowers the retail gauging of prices due to increased supply. When ASIC resistant cryptocurrency prices shoot up, you can expect a shortage of GPU's like we have now.

This is basically how a free market works.

These waves of supply and demand have been happening since the early Bitcoin GPU mining days, or around 6 - 7 years now. Back then there was some excuse from manufacturers not to overproduce GPU hardware in case of price crashes (and algorithms susceptible to dedicated ASIC machines) as the idea of Blockchain sticking around wasn't so certain. However, it's now clearly obvious Blockchain technology is here to stay.

The irony in all of this is that gamers will be/are benefitting from Blockchain technology. Tradeable assets on an immutable ledger for starters. For example, no one can steal your virtual property such as Stone of Jordans (yes I'm old), including Blizzard rolling back a database due to the immutability of the blockchains. There are much bigger projects like Decentraland (think Second Life but you own the assets, not some crappy microtransaction happy company like EA that can change the rules whenever they seek more profit) or FunFair who is developing a platform with for provably fair online casinos. I'm pretty certain you'll see this space grow fast, the merging gaming and blockchain.

Anyway, I've ranted long enough.

FWIW I've seen 1070's/1070ti's in stock (they go fast so you have to set up SMS alerts from places like NowInStock) for roughly 15 to 20% above MSRP which isn't that bad all things considered. Or you can just wait it out until supply meets demand (could take a few months).

 

[PeterScott]

Intel does not have access to Nvidia's full IP. They only licensed the elemental patents required to make a GPU. Intel can only try to improve what they've built to date.

It looks more like a broad cross license to just about everything:
https://seekingalpha.com/article/40...reement-nvidia-will-continue-well-beyond-2017

Under the patent cross license agreement... NVIDIA has granted to Intel and Intel's qualified subsidiaries, a non-exclusive, non-transferable, worldwide license... to all patents that are either owned or controlled by the parties at any time that have a first filing date on or before March 31, 2017...

The term of the patent cross license agreement continues until the expiration of the last to expire of the licensed patents...

Even if it was only GPU patents, since this is about making a GPU, they are covered.

 

[whm1974]

You make the argument it takes more time now to save up buying a 1070, and while that's true, that same logic also applies to the miners. Miners also have to save up more money (just like gamers) to buy new cards.

This is an example of the entitlement I'm talking about.

Mining isn't a bubble (the price of different cryptocurrencies is bubbly sure), and that's what gamers (and AMD/Nvidia to a large degree) are failing to understand. The demand for cards from miners moves in fairly obvious patterns. When crypto prices crash for a sustained period of time, or once the mining difficulty catches up with price (quickly happening right now) the demand for mining cards decrease dramatically, which in turn, lowers the retail gauging of prices due to increased supply. When ASIC resistant cryptocurrency prices shoot up, you can expect a shortage of GPU's like we have now.

This is basically how a free market works.

These waves of supply and demand have been happening since the early Bitcoin GPU mining days, or around 6 - 7 years now. Back then there was some excuse from manufacturers not to overproduce GPU hardware in case of price crashes (and algorithms susceptible to dedicated ASIC machines) as the idea of Blockchain sticking around wasn't so certain. However, it's now clearly obvious Blockchain technology is here to stay.

The irony in all of this is that gamers will be/are benefitting from Blockchain technology. Tradeable assets on an immutable ledger for starters. For example, no one can steal your virtual property such as Stone of Jordans (yes I'm old), including Blizzard rolling back a database due to the immutability of the blockchains. There are much bigger projects like Decentraland (think Second Life but you own the assets, not some crappy microtransaction happy company like EA that can change the rules whenever they seek more profit) or FunFair who is developing a platform with for provably fair online casinos. I'm pretty certain you'll see this space grow fast, the merging gaming and blockchain.

Anyway, I've ranted long enough.

FWIW I've seen 1070's/1070ti's in stock (they go fast so you have to set up SMS alerts from places like NowInStock) for roughly 15 to 20% above MSRP which isn't that bad all things considered. Or you can just wait it out until supply meets demand (could take a few months).

I don't buy virtual property as I'm not going to spend hard money on microtransactions in games, and two a lot of gamers including myself fear with good reason that the high prices and shortages of dGPUs will kill off PC gaming at least for AAA titles.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Also known as gambling...

No, no. When you do it in 'markets' it is called 'investing'.

 

[PeterScott]

No, no. When you do it in 'markets' it is called 'investing'.

Crypto coins, aren't "markets", they are much more like a Ponzi scheme.

 

[whm1974]

Crypto coins, aren't "markets", they are much more like a Ponzi scheme.

Oh yes indeed they are a Ponzi Scheme and a form of gambling as well.

 

[Headfoot]

These new fangled automobiles will never be as reliable or popular as the horse drawn carriage. The automobile can't even steer itself! An atrocious invention indeed.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Oh yes indeed they are a Ponzi Scheme and a form of gambling as well.

My point is that almost all investing is gambling.

 

[Insomniator]

The mining craze has turned my 7950 into a 1080 basically by continuing to sell my cards above what I paid. I managed to snag a used 1080 for 400 bucks, seemingly right before people decided they were good enough for mining. I never would have even spent that much if my previous cards didn't sell so easily.

But yeah, who cares. No games are coming out that push the graphic boundaries anyway. Might as well play a new console at 4K.

 

[PeterScott]

My point is that almost all investing is gambling.

Normal investing is based on companies with balance sheets, and their are very strict rules governing the accounting at publicly traded companies. So you can check things P/E, Earnings Growth, Book Value, etc...

You can then make some reasonable judgement about the value/stability of the company, prices are based on this (but subject to some hype).

OTOH, Crypto-coins have no balance sheets, there is no way to check "value" or stability of crypto coins. There is nothing supporting Crypto-coins.

While real companies are subject to have their stock prices inflated by hype, there is a foundation to base the value on. Crypto-coins OTOH have valuations based on nothing but hype.

That is a vast difference.

One is subject to hype fluctuations, but the other is nothing but hype.

When hype collapses. A company with a good balance sheet has a solid baseline value.

When hype collapses on a crypto coin, it has nothing.

 

[whm1974]

The mining craze has turned my 7950 into a 1080 basically by continuing to sell my cards above what I paid. I managed to snag a used 1080 for 400 bucks, seemingly right before people decided they were good enough for mining. I never would have even spent that much if my previous cards didn't sell so easily.

But yeah, who cares. No games are coming out that push the graphic boundaries anyway. Might as well play a new console at 4K.

Oh really? Newer AAA PC games are very demanding at 4K resolutions with graphics even set to medium if you desire decent framerates. Some older titles like Deux Ex: Mankind Divided I can't play at 1600p with my 970, and I would need a 1070 in order to do that.

 

[NomanA]

My point is that almost all investing is gambling.

While you can always invest in a manner similar to gambling, the two things are very different.

Problem with cryptocurrencies is that the price variations on a day to day basis are insanely large, and much of it is because of very low volume of trades. It doesn't give you any confidence, and also makes the whole point of using these currencies to purchase goods and services as pointless.

Right now, the Chinese and South Korean authorities are our big hopes. Hopefully, Koreans will ban the cryptocurrency exchanges, and once the prices settle down to Oct 2016 levels (or less), mining rigs will become useless for turning quick profits.

 

[tajoh111]

Normal investing is based on companies with balance sheets, and their are very strict rules governing the accounting at publicly traded companies. So you can check things P/E, Earnings Growth, Book Value, etc...

You can then make some reasonable judgement about the value/stability of the company, prices are based on this (but subject to some hype).

OTOH, Crypto-coins have no balance sheets, there is no way to check "value" or stability of crypto coins. There is nothing supporting Crypto-coins.

While real companies are subject to have their stock prices inflated by hype, there is a foundation to base the value on. Crypto-coins OTOH have valuations based on nothing but hype.

That is a vast difference.

One is subject to hype fluctuations, but the other is nothing but hype.

When hype collapses. A company with a good balance sheet has a solid baseline value.

When hype collapses on a crypto coin, it has nothing.

What people don't realize because they have never done an economics class or business class is regulation is good and a requirement for any stable currency or investment.

Regulation helps prevents pumping and dumping and short selling. In other words the manipulation of the market by a few individuals whom get rich at the expense of the masses who fall into the trap.

If you want an easy to digest example, watch the wolf of wall street.

Crypto currency as you have put it, has nothing to back it up. And unlike a government currency, there is no country backing the currency. A central banks goal is to stabilize a currency by controlling the supply primarily through monetary policy(setting exchange rates) so it experience mild(2% about) inflation. This is a good thing. It stabilizes the price of goods and at the same time, helps let the economy grow which allows job creation.

The economy almost collapsed 8-10 years ago, because of deregulation and no regulation where it was needed. That is the mortage market and the selling of mortgage back securities, sub prime credit(lending to people who could not fullfill their credit obligations but were approved for loans) and credit default swaps(insurance to cover losses from subprime credit mortgages if they go bust) which hid the risk of mortgage backed securities when sold to investors.

Crypto currency is even less regulated. No accountability in lying to people and nothing to control pumping and dumping. No financial performance indicators to show true worth(it easier to lie to investors). Not only is there no government to back it up, there are no physical assets to back it. Where mortgage backed security had atleast the mortages and thus the homes/property as collateral, crypto currency has nothing. If you lose, your bitcoins, the government nor banks are going to help you out. Just so people know, part of your money when deposited in a bank is insured in case a bank goes belly up in the form of insurance through the FDIC.

It's a bubble waiting to explode. The volatility and quick change in pricing is proof of this. The strongest supporters of bitcoin are people that have money in it and are trying to get rich quick. Some people have made money off of it, but that's how unregulated markets work until the crash. It will inevitably happen when regulation happens or when countres prevent trading of it. Those manipulating the market, are those that will get rich before the crash happens. Those that ride the hype train to the end, which is a large portion of people will experience heavy losses.

Hopefully when that happens, the price of videocards stabilize.

 

[Headfoot]

What people don't realize because they have never done an economics class or business class is regulation is good and a requirement for any stable currency or investment.
The economy almost collapsed 8-10 years ago, because of deregulation and no regulation where it was needed. That is the mortage market and the selling of mortgage back securities, sub prime credit(lending to people who could not fullfill their credit obligations but were approved for loans) and credit default swaps(insurance to cover losses from subprime credit mortgages if they go bust) which hid the risk of mortgage backed securities when sold to investors..

Let's keep the politics out of here.... this is all totally unrelated to videocards and barely tangentially related to the current tangent from the actual topic

 

[tajoh111]

Let's keep the politics out of here.... this is all totally unrelated to videocards and barely tangentially related to the current tangent from the actual topic

This is hardly political and is about economics. Considering bitcoins are seen as a form of currency and investment, my discussion is highly relevant to this particularly topic since we know why the price of videocards is inflated.