RIP Gamers, not even the 1080 Ti will save you now.

[VirtualLarry]

Crypto-coins OTOH have valuations based on nothing but hype.

Not true. They have white-papers, developer support, business contracts, etc., for their technology, and in most cases, actual source code.

If anything, CC is MORE transparent, than today's corporations, even with all of their legally-required reporting.

 

[Red Squirrel]

They'll lose it real fast. Them consoles don't have lots of thermal capacity.

You'd probably have to take it out of the chassis and add more fans. But yeah I don't imagine they have enough power. That's why PC gaming is better.

 

[Headfoot]

This is hardly political and is about economics. Considering bitcoins are seen as a form of currency and investment, my discussion is highly relevant to this particularly topic since we know why the price of videocards is inflated.

Yeah, all the talk about how great regulations are is definitely not political.... You talked about mortgages which have literally nothing to do with the topic.

 

[PeterScott]

Not true. They have white-papers, developer support, business contracts, etc., for their technology, and in most cases, actual source code.

If anything, CC is MORE transparent, than today's corporations, even with all of their legally-required reporting.

That isn't financial information.

It's technology/protocol information, like for FTP/TCP, etc...

But just because something uses FTP/TCP, doesn't mean it is worth money.

It's totally meaningless in this context.

 

[lupi]

Butthurt? People have been talking about delaying purchases for the last 2+ years because of the mining impact. Every time there is hope that the next release will help things out but it's only gotten worse. GPUs have seen modest improvements yet exponential cost increase. If you find that a good situation, looking forward to you burning out a couple cards and having to buy new ones.

 

[VirtualLarry]

People have been talking about delaying purchases for the last 2+ years because of the mining impact. Every time there is hope that the next release will help things out but it's only gotten worse.

Then they should have bit the bullet, borrowed some money from Mom, bought that expensive GPU, and mined on it until paid for. Then they can game on it, and it already paid for itself!

Any "pain" that "gamers" are going through right now "waiting" for GPU prices to drop, is self-inflicted, IMHO.

About the bolded: When has NVidia ever lowered the price of new cards? Anyone that is "hoping" for the bolded, is foolish indeed!

Mining is here to stay, get used to it folks.

 

[Despoiler]

It looks more like a broad cross license to just about everything:
https://seekingalpha.com/article/40...reement-nvidia-will-continue-well-beyond-2017

Even if it was only GPU patents, since this is about making a GPU, they are covered.

Ahh no. They gave them technology patents not design. Design is a very large part of the game. You didn't even need to read the actual agreement to know what's up. Where is the Nvidia GPU clone? Surely they could have come up with a design in the last 5 years that isn't grossly behind AMD if they had everything. They haven't so they don't.

http://download.intel.com/pressroom/legal/Intel_Nvidia_2011_Redacted.pdf

1.20. “Patents” shall mean all classes or types of patents other than design patents
(including, without limitation, originals,
divisions, continuations, continuations-in-
part, extensions or reissues), and applica
tions for these classes or types of patents
throughout the world (collectively “
Patent Rights
”) that (a) are owned or controlled
by the applicable Party or any of its Subsidiaries or to which such entities have the
right to grant licenses in each case at any time on or after the Effective Date, and (b)
have a first effective filing date during the Capture Period and to the extent that the
applicable Party or its Subsidiaries has th
e right to grant licenses within and of the
scope set forth herein and without the requirement to pay consideration to any third
party (other than Subsidiaries or to its and their employees) for the grant of a license
under this Agreement.

 

[tential]

Not true. They have white-papers, developer support, business contracts, etc., for their technology, and in most cases, actual source code.

If anything, CC is MORE transparent, than today's corporations, even with all of their legally-required reporting.

The amount of fud and lack of true understanding of what is happening rampant. Lots of demonizing of cryptocurrency when yes, it is an upgrade to our current system, and a threat to a lot of centers of power.

Then they should have bit the bullet, borrowed some money from Mom, bought that expensive GPU, and mined on it until paid for. Then they can game on it, and it already paid for itself!

Any "pain" that "gamers" are going through right now "waiting" for GPU prices to drop, is self-inflicted, IMHO.

As a person that is experiencing a TON of pain, its self inflicted. If I had bought Vega at launch, I'd be up $600. I waited at multiple points where buying would have yielded a large profit.
I completely agree with your statement.

 

[whm1974]

Then they should have bit the bullet, borrowed some money from Mom, bought that expensive GPU, and mined on it until paid for. Then they can game on it, and it already paid for itself!

Any "pain" that "gamers" are going through right now "waiting" for GPU prices to drop, is self-inflicted, IMHO.

About the bolded: When has NVidia ever lowered the price of new cards? Anyone that is "hoping" for the bolded, is foolish indeed!

Mining is here to stay, get used to it folks.

You are only making money off of mining if you trade the coins for hard cash or real goods and services. Sooner or later the bubble will burst due to coins having no real value.

 

[SMOGZINN]

You are only making money off of mining if you trade the coins for hard cash or real goods and services. Sooner or later the bubble will burst due to coins having no real value.

Right after the fiat dollar crashes because it is no longer backed by gold!

 

[whm1974]

Right after the fiat dollar crashes because it is no longer backed by gold!

The dollar at least I can easily pay taxes with and exchange it for real goods and services.

 

[Aikouka]

Not true. They have white-papers, developer support, business contracts, etc., for their technology, and in most cases, actual source code.

If anything, CC is MORE transparent, than today's corporations, even with all of their legally-required reporting.

Even though I hold coins, I still think it's a bit of silly affair. A lot of a coin's value is based purely upon what people are willing to pay. Another issue there is that it's not too hard to game the system... especially due to the lack of regulatory oversight. A good example is the altcoin Tron. After a friend kept telling me about it, I bought into it after there was talk of getting a deal soon. Well, the deal turned out to be with a website owned by the guy that runs Tron, and consequently, the coin's value TANKED. Thankfully, I didn't invest a lot of my existing coins (I've never paid for a coin in fiat), but it has lost anywhere between 50%-80% of its value since I bought it. (Keep in mind that I didn't even buy it at its peak.)

I still don't know why Bitcoin is even around. To be fair, it is the first coin, and so it has sort of entrenched itself, but my qualms largely deal with the transactions. The transactions are far too expensive and take too long. A lot of this is due to Bitcoin's design, and it's something they've wanted to fix. So, why not just push toward a more useful coin like Ethereum?

 

[tajoh111]

Yeah, all the talk about how great regulations are is definitely not political.... You talked about mortgages which have literally nothing to do with the topic.

It really isn't.

Politics, involves picking a side, left or right and has a clear subjective way on how federal matters should be controlled.

On the other hand, regulation on financial matters is generally agreed on by both sides. Particularly on things with volatility. This is why monetary policy and currency is set by the central bank or federal reserve which acts independently from the federal government. If your going to close off anything related to regulation because you think it is too political and economics, you won't get very far beyond a 1st year economics course and much learned beyond supply and demand. Regulation is really important in economics and the financial crisis was primarily caused by not enough regulation. Cryptocurrency is experiencing the same pitfalls of an unregulated investment. This being tremendous risk and extreme volatility. The mortgage market is the best example to illustrate why bitcoin needs regulation and why it is a bubble waiting to burst.

The subprime mortgage market popped because the market was under supervised and unregulated much like cryptocurrency. What happened was lending standards went out the window and mortgage were sold to everyone due to deregulation, including those that could not afford them. Combined with low interest rates, this lead to a continuing increase in house prices as people saw their houses as in investment when they should have not. This causes consumer to overspend due to something called the wealth effect where people spent more of their disposable income than they should because the value of their property is going up. Banks encouraged this behavior and to fund future mortgages, these mortgages were combined in packages with good and bad mortgages and sold to government sponsored entities, banks around the world in something called mortgage backed securities. Investors knew these mortgage backed securities were risky, but because they were backed by credit default swaps, this risk was hidden because what would normally very low rated debt, was AAA rated because AIG was backing it. Of course this bubble burst when people could not afford to pay their mortgages which turned MBS into unbuyable assets because they contained so much toxic assets.This causes liquidity issues in banks and caused AIG CDS from big money makers to big money losers. If AIG went down, any company that used CDS to cover bad debt would post a loss which would causes widespread financial panics and kill the economy from banks to healthy companies that use debt instruments to pay for daily operations. If regulations on MBS, CDS and lending standards were higher, most of this mess could have been avoided. This is because vulnerabilities and risk in investment would have been picked up before the bubble got as big as it got. But people riding the bubble were making too much money and they did not want regulation.

Cryptocurrency is going through something very similar because it is unregulated. Unregulated markets are the most profitable but highest risk because the potential for return on investment is ridiculously high as well as the potential losses. This is because assets are quick and easy to overvalue and thus turn into a bubble. As long as you get onto this bubble before it bursts, it can be very profitable which is why it is attractive to investors. But it is certainly a bubble. How else could turn from being valued from 900 dollars into nearly 20,000 over the course of a year, then crash to half of that a month later? The value of the currency is entirely tied to speculation and as long as the hype is there, that the currency will go up, people continue to buy and this is the problem. Why will it go up and how will this be sustained? The speculative nature and the lack of information make cryptocurrency very easy to manipulate.

A rumor about regulation, a business accepting it as currency, a robbery or closure of exchange, a hack with stolen information with a payment only acceptable in cryptocurrency are all events that can change the value of bitcoin in the double digit range over night. It does not even need to be a confirmed story to have impact. The speculative nature makes it to vulnerable to manipulation and thus, pumping and dumping and short selling. Without financial records or other indicators of real financial performance, things just have to be accepted at face value. Additionally, the creation of new cryptocurrency is too easy and has very similar making of a ponzi scheme. This is because it takes something that starts off as worthless, takes in real assets to make it valuable based on speculation and the person at the top or those who makes the client program and gets a portion of each coin made has the potential to get very rich. All they have to do is hype it up and get those involved to hype it up as well to get as much real money into the currency as possible. The end goal at the top of the pyramid/ponzi is to get out of the pyramid before the collapse. What makes it a scheme is there is very little investment in terms of tangible assets. Most of the assets are imaginary outside of the capital coming in to prop up the currency that can be removed at anytime.

What cryptocurrency reminds me of is Theranos. Remember the lab testing company, that was worth 9 billion dollars because of an idea without actual substance in products? It became worth 9 billion dollars because 700 million in outside capital investment purchased only 7% or so of the company. How much is it worth today? Nothing. Why because the products didn't work and it's value was based on speculation that the products did work.

How well do cryptocurrencies work as currency considering the stability and lack of acceptance? What is left of crytocurrency when you take out the money invested into it(assets)? How well does it compete in use with traditional currency today? If the value of a cryptocurrency is based on it's speculative nature as it's existance as a real currency and the requirement it succeeds, don't you think the risk is mountainous?

 

[Charlie22911]

The risk is huge with crypto. So large that I’ve always refused to buy it, and it makes me nervous when I hear folks say they have.

When I first heard about it, it was a game to me and BTC were the points. I got really into it before FPGAs took over and lead to ASICs which forced all us GPU guys out completely. Here we are years later and things are nuts, and I have to say the fun I used to be able to have with it is pretty much dead now that it has this crazy value.

 

[Kippa]

When is a gaming Volta card due out roughly 1-2 months? 3-6 months or 6+ months?

 

[Artorias]

When is a gaming Volta card due out roughly 1-2 months? 3-6 months or 6+ months?

I'm going to say at least 6 months until the non reference versions are out, but who knows if they will be in stock, that might take 3rd quarter.

 

[jpiniero]

When is a gaming Volta card due out roughly 1-2 months? 3-6 months or 6+ months?

Depends on how long the crypto bubble lasts. The earliest is May I imagine. Seems that AMD isn't going to release anything new until well into 2019 now so they could conceivably do nothing as long as the cards are selling out.

 

[zubbs1]

Normal investing is based on companies with balance sheets, and their are very strict rules governing the accounting at publicly traded companies. So you can check things P/E, Earnings Growth, Book Value, etc...

You can then make some reasonable judgement about the value/stability of the company, prices are based on this (but subject to some hype).

OTOH, Crypto-coins have no balance sheets, there is no way to check "value" or stability of crypto coins. There is nothing supporting Crypto-coins.

While real companies are subject to have their stock prices inflated by hype, there is a foundation to base the value on. Crypto-coins OTOH have valuations based on nothing but hype.

That is a vast difference.

One is subject to hype fluctuations, but the other is nothing but hype.

When hype collapses. A company with a good balance sheet has a solid baseline value.

When hype collapses on a crypto coin, it has nothing.

And the lunacy will only expound exponentially when they figure out how to trade options on cryptocurrency.... Lets trade a make believe item on a make believe digital item, backed by make believe promises, all while deluding the masses in thinking that since a gpu is burning electricity to discover the 'coin', then there is real value and stability in it and nobody should be concerned at all.

I'm sure we will all look back fondly on discussions of the inflated prices of graphics cards when the world burns around us because of a global financial armageddon.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Also coin mining in it's current form, will hit the wall at some point. The more people that get in on the action, the more the work units get adjusted, so each card produces less income. Eventually it will have so many people involved that the returns will only make sense for high volume players with cheap electricity. Of course kids in their parent basement with "free" electricity can also keep chasing those minimal returns, keeping the income/card low.

I still run multiple Hawaii cards in mining rigs. Most of them are 290s. Those cards are getting on 5 years old, and I've been mining with them since . . . August 2016? Anyway, they still make bank. Not like my Vega FE, but they still put out for me, and they keep a few rooms nice and warm during the winter (and rather uncomfortable in the summer, bleh, whatever).

ultimately nothing supports the value of crypto-coins

Incorrect. Fiat currency is nothing but a unit of barter, which itself is only backed by <insert anti government sceed here>. Only a few cryptos out there - such as Bitcoin - operate under the same model.

Most subsequent projects have been focused on blockchains that actually have some utility value.

A classic and easy-to-understand example is Monero (XMR). It is a "darkcoin". The entire selling point of XMR is that it masks whatever you're doing. There is no public record of how much XMR anyone has, how much they have sent to anyone else, how much they have received from anyone else, or even how much they have mined.

How much would you pay to mask all your financial transactions? You ever heard of the Panama Papers? How much do you think *they* would pay to have the ability to never get caught again? Think about it.

Crypto coins, aren't "markets", they are much more like a Ponzi scheme.

Bitconnect, sure. Others, not so much.

You'd probably have to take it out of the chassis and add more fans. But yeah I don't imagine they have enough power. That's why PC gaming is better.

I don't see why. Mining typically does not use much more power than gaming. Those GPUs in the Xbone and PS4 are made to work, and they have GDDR5 to boot. It might take some voltage/clockspeed mods to make it truly feasible in the existing chassis, but hell if you can mine on a 290 you should be able to mine on an Xbone.

That isn't financial information.

It's technology/protocol information, like for FTP/TCP, etc...

But just because something uses FTP/TCP, doesn't mean it is worth money.

It's totally meaningless in this context.

Clearly you have not read many whitepapers. Some are FUD and lies, or copy/pastes of other whitepapers. Others actually describe fiduciary responsibilities and such. Example:

https://atlant.io/assets/documents/en/Atlant_WP_publish.pdf

So, why not just push toward a more useful coin like Ethereum?

I ask myself this every day. The answers I get do not improve with time.

 

[Tweak155]

MicroCenter finally upped all their prices. They were up $20-$100 in some cases, but now I see a 1080ti for as high as $1379.

Just last week they were selling 1070ti for $499... now it's $919. Glad I got my reservation for $299 1060 6gb a few days ago. Gotta wait but at least I won't be gouged nearly as badly.

 

[Madpacket]

I don't buy virtual property as I'm not going to spend hard money on microtransactions in games, and two a lot of gamers including myself fear with good reason that the high prices and shortages of dGPUs will kill off PC gaming at least for AAA titles.

I don't need

I still run multiple Hawaii cards in mining rigs. Most of them are 290s. Those cards are getting on 5 years old, and I've been mining with them since . . . August 2016? Anyway, they still make bank. Not like my Vega FE, but they still put out for me, and they keep a few rooms nice and warm during the winter (and rather uncomfortable in the summer, bleh, whatever).



Incorrect. Fiat currency is nothing but a unit of barter, which itself is only backed by <insert anti government sceed here>. Only a few cryptos out there - such as Bitcoin - operate under the same model.

Most subsequent projects have been focused on blockchains that actually have some utility value.

A classic and easy-to-understand example is Monero (XMR). It is a "darkcoin". The entire selling point of XMR is that it masks whatever you're doing. There is no public record of how much XMR anyone has, how much they have sent to anyone else, how much they have received from anyone else, or even how much they have mined.

How much would you pay to mask all your financial transactions? You ever heard of the Panama Papers? How much do you think *they* would pay to have the ability to never get caught again? Think about it.



Bitconnect, sure. Others, not so much.



I don't see why. Mining typically does not use much more power than gaming. Those GPUs in the Xbone and PS4 are made to work, and they have GDDR5 to boot. It might take some voltage/clockspeed mods to make it truly feasible in the existing chassis, but hell if you can mine on a 290 you should be able to mine on an Xbone.



Clearly you have not read many whitepapers. Some are FUD and lies, or copy/pastes of other whitepapers. Others actually describe fiduciary responsibilities and such. Example:

https://atlant.io/assets/documents/en/Atlant_WP_publish.pdf



I ask myself this every day. The answers I get do not improve with time.

The FUD is thick in this thread. People comparing traditional banking or investments to crypto is akin to the horse and buggy to the motor vehicle. Calling it all a bubble when it's been around since 2009 and only getting bigger, gaining mass market adoption by developers, and ignoring the obvious benefits of such as helping protect citizens from corrupt goverments, giving people self sovereign identity management, removing corruption from voting, getting food and aid to heavily sanctioned countries like Venezuela etc.

I usually stop trying to convince people to pull their heads out of their *sses with such myopic views by applying failing banking models to superior technology but I give up. You can't change people's mind but you can try steering them in the right direction.

For anyone with a open mind and not trapped into outdated rigid ideologies, you should watch a few of Andreas Antonopulos's recent talks.

I recommend starting here:

https://youtu.be/n4F-h4xuXMk

Good luck!

 

[NomanA]

Yeah, all the talk about how great regulations are is definitely not political.... You talked about mortgages which have literally nothing to do with the topic.

Regulation is not a political topic. The recent history of sub-prime mortgages and how their speculations were sliced up, packaged and sold by financial institutions who were taking insane amount of risks, is very relevant to this discussion.

 

[NomanA]

The FUD is thick in this thread. People comparing traditional banking or investments to crypto is akin to the horse and buggy to the motor vehicle. Calling it all a bubble when it's been around since 2009 and only getting bigger, gaining mass market adoption by developers, and ignoring the obvious benefits of such as helping protect citizens from corrupt goverments, giving people self sovereign identity management, removing corruption from voting, getting food and aid to heavily sanctioned countries like Venezuela etc.

Cryptocurrency valuation is definitely a bubble waiting to deflate. Upward and downward swings of 50% in less than a month (hundreds of billions of dollars in valuation) makes these coins useless for any purposes that are normally attributed to currencies. At this point, these crypto-coins are only good for pump-and-dump type practices, aided by low-volumes, and wild speculation in their markets.

 

[frowertr]

Who cares if it's a bubble?? I see people get their panties in a wad arguing for or against it. I have bigger mountains to climb. So long as I make money with it (and its house money for me) the damn thing could go down like the Titanic tomorrow for all I care.

 

[tamz_msc]

The FUD is thick in this thread. People comparing traditional banking or investments to crypto is akin to the horse and buggy to the motor vehicle. Calling it all a bubble when it's been around since 2009 and only getting bigger, gaining mass market adoption by developers, and ignoring the obvious benefits of such as helping protect citizens from corrupt goverments, giving people self sovereign identity management, removing corruption from voting, getting food and aid to heavily sanctioned countries like Venezuela etc.

Nah, all of those things only suggest that blockchain technology could indeed be used to make existing systems more transparent, which is true.

That doesn't mean that cryptocurrency, which is the most infamous example where blockhain is used, would actually turn out to be a good thing. Fundamentally, it isn't.