Ripping DVD's, morally wrong??? Or Not?

[JoLLyRoGer]

Over the past 6 months, since I first started reading AnandTech, I've run across several forums regarding numerous issues concerining the RIAA, MIAA, etc. Some of the things I've read have left me in question about a few things. There have been threads about the BS encryption to be used with HDTV, threads discussing the Sony BETAMAX verdict of '84 w/ regaurds to coping materials for personal use. Hacking games, etc. etc. On several occasions, I have read a post from someone wanting to know how to rip DVD's with their PC. Some threads these folks get flamed, other times people direct them to the right spot to get the utilities they need, blah blah blah.

Here is my stance on the matter. I personally can't see a problem with making copies of DVD's (aside from the fact that it takes >14 hours), I can respect the fact that the movie industry is there to make money just like any other business, but come on, how much money is on Hollywood. Are the really hurting here?. And as a side note, I can't see a moral difference between ripping a DVD and making a copy to VHS.

Now on the other hand, I feel it is very wrong to copy games, simply for this fact. If I were a game writer, and I had just released my "Magnam-Opus" just to find out that someone was freely distributing "hacked" copies to everyone on the internet, I'd be pretty
p!ssed off, and I probably wouldn't put the same effort into making a "quality" game next time.
Now, is that a contradiction, somehow I feel like the last statement negates the first. Why shouldn't the same logic apply to the movie industry. I guess I have a bit of a different attitude concering games.

As far what it boils down to, for me, personally.
I don't make ripped copies of DVD's (Tried it once, too much of a pain in the arse, I would if it were easier.), but I have no problem coping one with my vcr.

I haven't copied games, I would rather just pay the $30 so the good quality games keep coming.

Do I use Napster?.. I use the ever loving sh!t out of Napster. Most of the time I already own the CD anyway, it's just so scratched up it won't play..

But anyway, in all of my meaningless babble and infinate boredom, I was just wondering what everyone else's take on the matter is. And feel free to fess up to what ever you've tried. And don't try to pull that I'm a perfect angel crap, no one buyes it anyway.

Can't wait to read your replies..LOL

 

[Rigoletto]

I'm not justifying taking from Artists their dues, but I would point out that stuff you rip wouldn't necessarily be stuff you would have bothered buying. So in a way your rental charge is enough for the Artist in that case. I have a hundred and fifty ripped CDs, do you think I would have bought even half them if I couldn't? Nope.

 

[Viper GTS]

I can easily justify ripping DVD's for personal use, if I own the DVD myself. For example, on days like this at work, it'd be nice to pop in a DIVX version of whatever movie I felt like watching, & wasting time that way.

As a whole, though, I guess I really don't mind people ripping DVD's. I, for one, think the quality on rips sucks. Just like MP3's, I only have MP3's of stuff that I own the CD as well. And most of them I made myself. I only use them for casual listening & portability, when I want the real thing I go back to the original.

Viper GTS

 

[JoLLyRoGer]

Couldn't agree with you more Viper. And a good point about ripping DVD's to DivX. MP3's are great for portabality too. It's nice to burn down about 160 MP3's to CD and take them to work with me to pop into my computer and listen to. God as my witness, some of the music I am subjected to on our shop radio would drive a guy postal!!

 

[madthumbs]

As for "hacked games";

Suppose I drew a picture, and someone made one just like it from it instead of buying it from me. It didn't cost me a thing for them to make it, and perhaps if they could have afforded it, they would have bought it from me. I have not seen instances of where you can get hacked games as easily as buying retail. Add to this that much of the unnecessary cost of retail is shipping, packaging and other unnecessary stuff that we have no choice of wether we want of not. If you look at www.fiendishgames.com, they sell some excellent games that are fully and easily downloadable. They cost a mere $15. There is a lot less pirating of their games, because they are reasonable to their consumers and are mindful of the people with less money. Most of the people getting pirated software would not otherwise buy most of the software they have. If it is an online game, the game is usually helped by how many people are available to play it online with. In some cases software is even sold to the black marked to spread it's name and popularity. I see people who pirate giving kudos to excellent software (which is word of mouth advertising). With limits to pirated software like failed updates, limitations on online play, cheaper packaging and storage mediums, inavailability, I can't see why pirating is so taboo. I'm not saying pirating isn't morally wrong, but is it that bad?

 

[JoLLyRoGer]

Just a side thought about DivX. I realise that it's a codec that uses MPEG4 and allows greater data compression of video (similar to MP3 vs. wav), but is it in any way associated with that whole DivX Disc thing that Circuit City tried a couple of years ago that fell flat on it's face.

 

[superbaby]

Backing up DVD's into DivX movies is kinda dumb. You bought the DVD because you want video and audio quality. Better to rip a VHS/VCD copy instead.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Circuit City's Divx and DivX are not the same
CC Divx was a crappy format that was pay per play(gay)

 

[madthumbs]

No JoLLyRoGer, they only share the same name.

 

[Madcowz]

you guys are trying to justify something that SIMPLY IS NOT moral... no MATTER HOW you put it. Sure okay, if you own the cd, own the game, or own the movie than perhaps you have a case. But this is HARDLY ever the case am I not correct? I'm SURE many of you don't own on CD even close to 50% of the mp3s you have, nor plan on purchasing the CD. I hear over and over again, "well I download music just to preview and If I like it than I buy the CD." Oh COME ON, that is total BS. Perhaps 1% of the population does that, but we all know very well this is the case: download songs you enjoy, keep it on your hard drive and listen to it over and over for your own pleasure... sometimes even put it on your MP3 player or burn it to a CD for portable use. Is there a step in there that involves going out and purchasing the artist's CD? No. Perhaps I am being a hypocrite for having a collection of over 1000 mp3s in which perhaps 100 of those songs I own on CD, and also have asked for copies of games from friends, but I don't exactly feel good about myself. Sometimes I try to stop myself but the urge is too strong. We do it simply b/c WE CAN... and we can do it EASILY. But the fact of the matter is, what we are doing is no worse than stealing; in fact it basically is theft. How come must of us don't shoplift? Because it is DIFFICULT. Downloading an mp3 is very easy and it is done in the comfort of our own homes where we are not being monitored by cameras and security guards. But that does not make it right. On this note I will end here. Thank you for reading and good night!

 

[pen^2]

man, of what percentage do artists acutally get paid when you purchase a CD? for what i know, most money is gobbled up by evil record companies anyway...

 

[Viper GTS]

I have ~200 MP3's on my computer, only two of which I don't have the CD for.

So that's what, 99%?

Viper GTS

 

[superbaby]

I tend to buy CD's I like, after listening to the entire album in MP3, and not buy the ones I don't like. Hence I do have a CD collection, but my MP3 collection is bigger.

That is to say, I support the artists which don't put out crap.

 

[Czar]

My 42 DVDrips say that its not morally wrong.

Its alot different than with MP3 because then you get about same quality version of the original. With DVDrips using the Divx codec its different you get higher quality than VHS, but no where near the quality of DVD.

 

[NicColt]

Let's see who does the real stealing. I purchased some games that were so full of bug and were so misleading in what it promised that the game companies were the ones doing the ripoffs and I was the victim. If a game is worth having I will go and buy it, even though I had access to the full downloads of games like Soldier of Fortune, X Beyond and Viper Racing, I still went and purchased them because they deserved it. But there is no freeken way that I will put cash on Frogger or Daikatana ect.

 

[madthumbs]

I never said that pirating was morally right, but is anyone taking any tangible property? Is it as bad as driving drunk, imposing second hand smoke on people, dumping your ashes in someone's parking lot, selling dope to kids, boinking your freinds wife. I can think of much better crusades than the ones against piraters.

 

[Akaz1976]

Well pirating software/music/videos is illegal. as for whether it is immoral? well i believe it is fine to copy right recent work BUT it should not be a perpetual copyright. after all no ones going around drying to dig up Mozarts copyright owner? incase of todays artists work, its copy righted even after their death. same for technology. there should be limited patent on all technology and after that it should be usable by all. again! noone pays royalty to inventor of the wheel, does one?

 

[NicColt]

Well let's call it a dark gray area, when you record a TV show or football game or goto a bar to see the game on big screen tv, that's a gray area because the telecast is protected by copywright and legally bars don't have the right to broadcast that telecast. If the Radio station decides what tunes to play, even though you don't OWN the cd's there comming from, it's considered legal, but if YOU decide to play the exact same tunes comming from the same unit even though you don't own the cd's there comming from it's considered illegal, that's another dark gray area. When you buy a blank vcr tape or CD, there is a copywright fee on that medium that is part of the price and covers that gray area, as long as you don't make it a commercial venture or profit from it I don't think that there is truly a legal problem and morally I don't have a problem with that. If bars or commercial establishments were to openly advertise that they are broadcasting sporting events, that would pose a legal issue. The problem with MP3's comes from two points. One there is no copywright fee on mediums that records MP3's and that medium is the Internet and your hard disk. Two, the other big problem with MP3's is that people profit from it, from displaying commercial adds on the websites there being downloaded from to people burning entire cd's and selling them for profit in local bars, or at school for a fraction of the cost, morally I think tha the later is wrong. But then again pirating is a whole different issue. That's my 2cents on it.

 

[Aboroth]

Most of the music that I listen to is imported from Europe. I hate pretty much all music that comes from the US. It is just my taste in music. If it weren't for MP3s and a wonderful thing called FTP I wouldn't have ever heard of my favorite artists and these music companies wouldn't have gotten hundreds of dollars from me for this music.

As for stealing, we can't treat software as if it is tangible property. That is just insane. I can't sneak into your house and copy your diamond necklace then run off with the copy, can I? No, in the real world you take what others have and leave them without it. That is stealing. with sofware you copy it while the owner still has it. I am just saying that you can't treat copying software and music in the same way as stealing something tangible, I am not saying how it should be dealt with or if it is morally right.

I, for one, will continue to download MP3s and delete what I don't like and buy the CD if I can (you have no idea how hard it is to find the albums of some of the artists that I listen to). If the music industry doesn't like it, tough, I am still giving them money that they wouldn't have had otherwise.

I will also continue to stand by my belief that I should be able to make a backup copy of what I bought that has the same quality as the original. That means copying DVDs to DVDs and not just to VHS tapes and other media that inherently has less quality.

 

[Madcowz]

oh in that case I think I'll just hack into the bank of america's system and "DOWNLOAD" funds into my personal account. I guess that's okay since it's not tangible right? OH wait, lemme guess... you're going to say that money is tangible huh? Okay then, let's see. I download a song from an artist... heck why don't we say that I downloaded his entire new album. I DO NOT INTEND ON BUYING THEIR ALBUM. I just deprived that artist and the music industry of $15. REAL HARD, CA$H. Now this is the attitude of the MAJORITY of people. Sure, Viper GTS and Aboroth are stand up guys with integrity but too bad they do not make up the majority of our population

 

[Hanpan]

I always think about this but if it were possible for micro$oft to make windows uncrackable and therefore one had to pay 80+ dollars for every version one used would %80+ of the world stilluse windows.

Just a thought.

 

[NicColt]

Well the artist's can't have it both ways, I was listening to a radio show on the subject and the artist in question wanted to distribute as many mp3's of his CD over the internet so he could get his name and music recognized and then once he get's recognized and makes a fortune over that medium want's to ban the entire process and leave other struggling artist without the medium. You can't beg the radio station to play the tune and then force the public to pay for what they've just heard. How many record companies do I see releasing the entire CD in mp3 format in binaries newsgroup's before it even hit's the stores. I'm just saying that they cannot have it both ways, they can't expect to take advantage of a wide open medium such as the internet or the radio for their own advantage and then all of a sudden pound it into submission because they don't think it's wright. There is a moral gray area between legal and illegal, that is the issue. How many artist would not have found fame and fortune over the free wide open medium such as radio or the internet. If they have found fame and fortune then they have to accept the gray area that made them famous in the first place. But priating and intellectual property is a whole other ball game.

 

[madthumbs]

Madcowz, that $15 is split up many ways. You "could" say that you are stealing from the store owner, the employees, the packaging designer, the package manufacturer, the shipper, the truck driver, the truck repair man, the truck driver, the government (not gonna name all those people), etc.... on down the road. I think the underlying issue that makes this a hot topic is that for once the "haves" don't have much more than the "have nots". I think most people that aren't on a tight budget will buy the retail products. However the people that are likely not going to buy the products will pirate them because they otherwise couldn't afford them. The people that would not have bought the software anyways, go online and share how good it is with people all over. This word of mouth advertising cost the company what? The whole entertainment industry til now has catered to the wealthy. There have never been "plain label" releases, and rarely purchaseable downloadable games that don't require so many middle men. Price controlling has been going on too long, and price changes after people buy product could be considered immoral also. Pirateing would not be so prominent if the entertainment industry wasn't so corrupt to begin with. They could sell their stuff for a much better price and still make huge profits. Take BMG music club for example. Anyone is able to get CD's for less than $3 each. Now who is gonna pay $200 for a cd burner, and so much for a cd, along with their time just to copy cd's that will be inferior to the retail product? For me if it wasn't for mp3's, it would be the radio anyway. It's about as immoral as name calling in some cases. None of what I said pertains to reselling pirated software, that is another issue.

 

[pen^2]

NIcColt, masterfully put, just what i was implying in my earlier post

 

[Zucchini]

Akaz,

The patent system already works that way.