Ripping DVD's, morally wrong??? Or Not?

[Akaz1976]

Zucchini:

For Technology it does (tho i think patents are for way to long a period) BUT there is no duration limit on copyrights on movies/music etc.

Akaz

 

[Madcowz]

there are no two ways about it... it's stealing and it's immoral

People tend to try justifying immoral actions b/c we do not like to believe we are doing wrong. That's all I have to say

 

[Zucchini]

There are problems with comparing patents on technology and copyrights on intellectual copyrights Think about it, they are different things.

 

[gtd2000]

Make it (the original) cheap enough so u don't even think about going to the trouble of accepting pirated goods
I've been told that a music CD costs about US80cents to make, package, distribute and pay for the band?
I have no proof of this but I've "heard" this from several sources.
I live in Asia and many movies here are now very cheap due to the activity of pirates - well it seems that way to me?
I'm not justifying it....just proposing that u have to find a solution and the consumer is concerned with cost and quality...if you get PC games for 10%of the original in pirate form and it is identical to the original when installed..I know who would get my money.....after all how many pieces of software actually live up to the hype?

 

[Zucchini]

Yes i've heard of that figure, and its wrong. I don't have a link to a site, but i've seen pie charts of the costs for cd's and dvds. Its amazing how many ppl or companies it takes to get these things to market. The money seems well accounted for, and its not 80cents to create and distribute a cd, its more like ~10 dollars for wholesale. The rest is a markup by the store so they can make a profit. Also, a record company doesn't automatically make a ton of money off a hit cd, that hit cd is also supporting all the failure albums Reality sucks because i also used to think that cd's were extremely overpriced. As for price fixing, that has been done away with recently.

I guess its like saying the raw materials for your restaurant dinner cost $3 so you shouldn't have to pay anymore then that

I find that most people that steal or shoplift will try to justify their actions. Maybe subconsciously they are trying to protect themselves from guilt. Anyhow, the ignorant or un-selfaware ppl copy mp3s and movies and claim it to be moral or ethical. This is exactly the same mindset that shoplifters have. If your going to steal, atleast admit it. No one is entitled to entertainment, many people take it because its easy and there is no risk of getting caught. A good shoplifter also has very little risk of being caught, how do i know this? Lets just say that i knew ppl that could lift cds/dvds/computer hardware. Some justified their actions using the same reasons.., while others admitted they were stealing but felt the risk was worth the gain as they were minors at the time. Most of the ones in denial ofcourse got caught. Ok i'm rambling.. time for me to shutup

 

[Smbu]

Recording artist make most of their money through touring and not through selling cd's, and cassettes. I think I've heard somewhere that most get about $1 per cd sold.

 

[Zucchini]

smbu,

Yup thats true, after all the costs associated with creation, distribution, and promotion of albums, there isn't much left over at all.

 

[formulav8]

Most of the mp3's i have is stuff that you can't buy at the store anymore.

 

[Looney]

Well, like some have pointed out already, the argument for it is this: just because i copied an illegal copy, doesn't mean i would have bought that copy if an illegal copy was not available.

So i don't think there's a problem with it. I believe that most people will grow up one day and actually buy the legitimate copies when they have the money. When i was younger, every software i had was warez... i think in a 4 year period, i probably only bought 2 software. But now that i'm older and have money, i haven't downloaded a warez in years that i haven't bought a retail copy shortly after. Same for Divx... i download divx now, but in the future i can't see myself doing that. I would rather have a DVD with all the dolby digital, visual quality, and a nice case.

Same thing with mp3s. In the 5 years before mp3s, i NEVER bought a single CD. I'm not a big music fan. For the last 2-3 years since mp3 became popular, i've bought 4 CDs... not huge, about one or two a year, but still better than before i became aware of mp3s.

So i do believe that these 'sharing' expose people more to the various medium and what's available. What i don't think is right is pirating for profit.

 

[Zucchini]

Yes, the sharing to expose people to music is fuzzy factor. I've probably bought more cd's because of mp3s then b4. Then again there are also ultra cheap people that get a thrill from not paying for anything.

 

[TGCid]

Morally wrong? Define morally wrong. What is to you may not be to me and vice versa. They don't call this a controversial issue for nothing heh.

 

[Zucchini]

Then how about ethically wrong?

 

[AtomClock]

YOU want to talk about moraly worng...

Lets start with the cost of production of DVDs versus the cost of production of vidio cassetts. It should be obvious that it is much cheeper to produce DVDs than vidio cassetts but does the movie industry pass on the savings to the consumer... NO!!! instead they double the price!!! In addition, it is much harder to copy a DVD than it is to copy a vidio cassette therefore they are probably losing less mony now on piracy than the have in the past.

BOTTOM LINE..... The movie industry is RIPPING US OFF!!

If the movie industry had passed the savings onto the consumer which they realized by moving from video cassetts to DVDs then a DVD would now cost about $5.00. I really don't think there would be any piracy then.

Therefore, if the movie industry is going to rip off the consumers it shouldn't come as a big surprise that the consumer is going to rip off the movie industry.

 

[Zucchini]

?? Many dvds contain special features such as directors commentary/trailers/deleted scenes/multiple language tracks/behind the scenes documentaries/cast bios/etc. Did you consider the cost of including these? how about the cost of creating higher quality transfers, from what i've heard the disks have to pass through many quality controls to make sure there are no artifacts or bugs in the interface. It should cost more to create a dvd at the momment although i would rather pay less like anyone would.


so atom clock, where are your sources for your information?

 

[gtd2000]

I can buy pirate DVD's here in China for approx US$2 each

I can also buy genuine DVD's for as little as US$5 in Hong Kong, latest mainsteam movies cost probably about US$20 though

A genuine VCD is from US$2 upwards here (just bought American History X for example for HK$15) but generally about US$5 they used to be about US$12 each..pirates generally cost a flat US$2.50....which if u ask me is just silly - quality is usually dire and copied from a cinema screen..not recommended!

I'm all for buying the genuine article at a reasonable cost.

Actually the only piece of software that I have which I think was actually worth paying money for is Half-Life.....

 

[AtomClock]

Hey Zucchini

For some reason you seem to think that they are putting extra work into these DVDs. NEWS FLASH... All of the information that is included on the DVD already exists when the production is finished. Directors cut... obviously, sub titles.. needed for non US markets... Actor bios... included in the protfolio supplied prior to their audition.

The only difference is the source material is processed into a digital format instead of an analog format. Even if this process is expensive.. it only has to be done ONCE!!! Which means that the cost of converting the material into a digital format is negligable.

Hence... as I believe you will agree... the cost of physically making a DVD is cheeper than making a video cassette. It is cheeper just in material, packaging and shipping costs.

Since it should be obvious to even the most casual observer that DVDs are cheeper to make than video cassettes I suggest that you Zucchini
produce some kind of support for the outrageous price which is charged for DVDs.

 

[Leo V]

Allow me to quote Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.:

"Sometimes a law is just on its face and unjust in its application... I hope you are able to see the distinction I am trying to point out. In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law... That would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. ...an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for the law."

No stranger to his word, Dr. King wrote this in 1963 from the Birmingham Jail. Are you willing to go to jail, should you get caught decrypting your DVD's for personal convenience?

I am unsure if I am; after all, nobody forced me to buy my DVD's--along with the attached strings--in the first place. Hence I've sold off all my DVD's and committed to never buy or rent them again as long as the DMCA stands. I also donate money to the Electronic Frontier Foundation (eff.org) because I know they fight against these unjust laws. However, I wear a T-shirt that has the DeCSS DVD-decryption code printed on the back. That is my human expression of free speech. Should someone arrest me for wearing it, I'll gladly suffer whatever punishment I'll get, lest fellow Americans may notice what's happening in their own country.

I am not entirely selfless, either. I use Napster to sample songs, not all of which I intend to buy (although I always buy what I really like). In other words, I don't morally recognize the present copyright law. Accordingly, I am completely willing to go to jail over this. But then you won't hear me whining how the law was enforced too stringently--there is no such thing. Only just and unjust.

 

[Caitiff]

The whole technology aspect of ripping and copying is going to force a change in the industry. Of course RIAA wants things to stay the way they are, but it isn't going to happen. Step back a few generations.... You don't think that the people that used to hand copy books didn't look on the printing press as 'evil'? Did cassette tapes and reel to reel obliterate the music industry? Hardly. They've been around for a generation now, and I don't think the music industry has folded, but they did have to change. It is simply moronic for the recording industry to expect to keep doing business the way they do now, we've moved on, and will continue to move on. As for copying games and the whole intellectual property bit, I don't buy it. There are only a few people that can actually copy games compared to the general public as a whole, and they aren't going to cause the industry to go bankrupt. They may need to change their tactics a bit to 'come up to speed'. Stephen King proved that you can make money on 'intellectual property' that is freely distributed, it just has to be implimented correctly. Sorry for being so long winded.

 

[AtomClock]

Hey Leo V

Great comments... I agree that not buying the product is better than stealing it as a protest. I just wish more people would boycot these products until the price drops. Unfortunately, since the movie industry is a monoply they can charge whatever they want for their products. It's not like I can go someplace else if I don't like the price Lucas charges for Star Wars. Ultimately, the only way to drive the price down is to copy the work.. hence when losses from the ilegal copying of the work gets large enough the industry will be forced to lower prices of the products. This will make it easier to buy an original than it would to waste time making a copy. This is pretty much what happened when music CDs first came out. It was cheeper to make a copy of a CD onto tape than to go and buy the CD. Now, making a copy of a CD onto tape isn't really any cheeper than buying the CD and a copy has degraded quality. So buy the CD... Well, the music industry is now facing MP3s which are slightly degraded but the degridation is hardly noticable and you can put 100 songs on a CD instead of 15. It is getting cheeper and easier to make a copy than it is to buy the CD. The music industry will be forced to make changes. (for example... change the CD format... include the 15 songs, live performances and maybe even some video clips) This would serve to make it more dificult to copy because of the increased information and it would provide more value to the consumer and really no additional cost to the music industry.

Fundamentally, the question is how does the consumer base deal with a monoply in a fee market economy?

 

[Leo V]

AtomClock, I certainly see your point regarding prices. I do believe that our government needs to shed its giant corporate debt, and start enforcing our antitrust laws--if the RIAA and MPAA aren't monopolies, then I don't know what is. It's unpleasant to witness well-contributing monopolies purchasing such political influence.

But prices really aren't what concerns me so much. It's the antihuman legislation that gets happily passed through Congress with bipartisan support--to win the favour of the aforementioned monopolies. What a disgrace that is! The DMCA and UCITA are just the beginning. Under the umbrella of these openly fascist laws, our monopolies are planning a new generation of products "protected" from their owners--code named SDMI; you probably also heard about MPAA's plans to control your HDTV recording. Internet monitoring laws are being pushed hard; it's only reasonable to speculate that they'll be harnessed to "protect" the massive content industry one day. 1984 is not a paranoid fantasy--we're moving towards it at frightening speed.

DVD's and soon music and TV may be very uncomfortable to live without. But I cannot fathom how I could buy--or in any way support--a product or service whose very existence degrades my humanity.

 

[Mats122]

I also have MP3's on my PC, but I always buy the CD as quality is better. In Europe (Switzerland) when you go to a store with CD's, they have CD players at the counter, so you take a CD and go and listen to it before you buy. Here in the US - you buy and then listen, something I do not like and so with MP3's I have the possobility to listen to it prior to buying.
Another story is with DVD's - would never buy a copy or copy a DVD - the quality is very poor - don't ustand people copying the DVD's on VHS? - All the quality - the sound at most is gone, don't get it. I love DVD's and buy a lot of them - you can get them quite cheap when you look around (Columbiahouse, Buy.com, BestBuy, CC) - there are always some promos going on.
Think that a much bigger problem is in poor countries like Poland/Russia, etc. where the cost of a DVD is $20 and up - no promos and the $20 is like 5-10% of their salary (talking about the major population). Imagine a DVD would cost $200 in the States! In this case, I understand these people as offcourse they don't have the right equipment to get the benefits of DVD (A/V Receiver, nice TV, DVD player) and the price of it is just to much to swallow.

 

[sandorski]

Ripping for personal use=ok
Ripping to give away or sell=very bad

Most of my games are installed on every PC in the house(4 at the moment)and they have all been no-cd'd so LAN games can be played. I got no problem with it.

 

[Zucchini]

Atomclock,

I just bought a 50ct. spindle of cdrs from frys electronics this weekend for $7.50, works out to around 15cents b4 tax. I think the music industry will never get close to beating that.. and the price just keeps going down Even at the regular price of $15 it works out to 30cents a disc.

 

[Aboroth]

It is very hard for anyone to determine how much is lost due to pirating. Lets assume for just a second that they could track just how many times a copy was made of anything (which in itself is impossible). How can you tell who, out of all of those people who got a copy, would have bought it in the first place, and now won't because they got it for free? You can't. Sure some people do that and that is wrong. However, there are still people who are introduced to the music or software and buy it because of it, or even buy other related items because they decide they like it. In this instance they are expanding the market.

There are also people who just download everything they can just for the hell of it. album anyway, so nobody can claim lost profit. They might have never even heard of the artist or software title before. Now they know about it, and might tell others, or even give it to others who might buy it. I think piracy, to a certain extent, expands any industry. Please don't take that the wrong way. I don't mean to say piracy is good, just that it has its benefits. Hopefully the good and bad sides cancel each other out. Since there is no evidence to the contrary I don't see a problem. Also, since the movie, music, and software industries are thriving, that is further proof of little or no problem. Worry about something else.

Edit- grammar
2nd edit- fix mangled text (I don't know how that happened)

 

[Zenmervolt]

As for the inevitable "morality" arguments, who really cares? The cost for making a CD is $0.10, sans royalty. However, consider that most stores have a 100% markup, and the record companies have a 100% markup when they sell albums to the stores. Those $18 CD's cost around $4.50 for the record companies -- if that. Most of the songs I get off of Napster are from artists who are either dead, or from ones whose work I already have on LP (those black vinyl things that are 12-inch platters with grooves on them). Finally, per pervious court decisions from the time when dual deck cassette recorderd were introduced it is completely legal for me to copy an album that I own and distribute free copies to my friends. If I charge for the duplicates, it is illegal, but giving free copies to my friends and family is legal. Parting shot for the moralists: How many of you have taped a movie off of TV or off of Cable channels such as AMC which air movies without commercials or editing? Seems to me as though that is in no way different from what you claim is "stealing" movies and sound. Just my $0.01 (My thoughts aren't worth a whole 2 cents.)

Aaron Meyer