Rittenhouse trial to start soon, Judge is laying out rules.

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HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
Kenosha has by far the most sympathetic jury pool for Kyle. All of Wisconsin has been bombarded with media coverage, almost entirely slanted against Kyle. Kenosha however, experienced significant damage from the rioting. It shouldn't be this way, but if one is strongly against the protests they are most likely strongly for Kyle and vice versa, and you're going to find more people aligned against the protests in Kenosha than anywhere else in Wisconsin.

They were trying to have the trial originally in Antioch area and not Kenosha. That whole failure of extradition and change of venue failed. While you may believe that Kenosha is mostly sympathetic with Kyle here, I am very skeptical on that. The whole riot under false pretenses wouldn't have happened if that city wasn't flooded with idiots in the first place that resulted in this trial. Again, this is literally the clearest case of self defense the justice system has ever seen and I am still flabbergasted the judge hasn't tossed the whole thing out with what has been presented. The mere fact of potential exculpatory evidence destruction by the FBI should have tossed the case yesterday once that was known. It has for many a previous case.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,277
28,136
136
You are an idiot. That RIGHT is called the 2nd amendment. Sorry that pesky thing called the Constitution gets in the way of your world view. I am still amazed at how dumb the vast majority of people are in this forum on the clearest case of self defense the legal system has ever seen with the amount of evidence presented to date that is overwhelming proving it. Literally if Rittenhouse loses this case, the whole concept of the Bill Rights is dead and there is no right to self defense anymore in this country.
The law in that state says minors cannot carry that firearm without parental supervision.

Idiot says what?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,277
28,136
136
Again, you are putting words in my mouth. When have i ever made the premise that whites and blacks are treated the same in this country?
I was asking a question. You said if a black man walked right by police doing exactly what KR did he would have been allowed to pass.

My response is hogwash and gave 2 examples of black males killed by police just for open carrying in an open carry state. Tamir Rice and John Crawford
 
Nov 17, 2019
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Again, this is literally the clearest case of self defense the justice system has ever seen and I am still flabbergasted the judge hasn't tossed the whole thing out with what has been presented.
There is no 'self defense' case here.

Now if the crowd had beaten the gun toting punk to death, there might be.
 
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soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
136
The money sent to Kyle was spent on some nice suits, shirts, ties, etc. He hasn’t worn the same thing for three days.
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
24,836
9,071
136
There is no 'self defense' case here.

Now if the crowd had beaten the gun toting punk to death, there might be.

I guess I need to understand the charges more:
1 count of intentional homicide
1 count of attempted intentional homicide
1 count of reckless homicide.
Additional felony and misdemeanor charges related to recklessly endangering the public, possession of a weapon as a minor, etc.

Now, I don’t know where these fall on the murder vs. manslaughter spectrum. I believe the reckless homicide charge coves Rittenhouse’s first victim (Rosenbaum) and the other 2 charges cover the other 2 people he shot.

The “reckless” part takes into account Rittenhouse’s actions before the shooting—I.e. was he spoiling for a fight? My thought is he could still be convicted for this even if he was being chased, because he could still be considered an instigator due to prior actions. But I don’t know if there’s a lesser version of this charge more equivalent to manslaughter.

I believe the other 2 homicide charges relate to murder and attempted murder, and here’s where I’m not sure he’ll be convicted—because now he was clearly being pursued, had fallen to the ground, and shot another man holding a gun. Is it self defense, or were his victims merely looking to apprehend a shooter (make a citizen’s arrest?)

I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets off on all the homicide charges and ends up with the reckless endangerment felony and the underage possession misdemeanor.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
136
I guess I need to understand the charges more:
1 count of intentional homicide
1 count of attempted intentional homicide
1 count of reckless homicide.
Additional felony and misdemeanor charges related to recklessly endangering the public, possession of a weapon as a minor, etc.

Now, I don’t know where these fall on the murder vs. manslaughter spectrum. I believe the reckless homicide charge coves Rittenhouse’s first victim (Rosenbaum) and the other 2 charges cover the other 2 people he shot.

The “reckless” part takes into account Rittenhouse’s actions before the shooting—I.e. was he spoiling for a fight? My thought is he could still be convicted for this even if he was being chased, because he could still be considered an instigator due to prior actions. But I don’t know if there’s a lesser version of this charge more equivalent to manslaughter.

I believe the other 2 homicide charges relate to murder and attempted murder, and here’s where I’m not sure he’ll be convicted—because now he was clearly being pursued, had fallen to the ground, and shot another man holding a gun. Is it self defense, or were his victims merely looking to apprehend a shooter (make a citizen’s arrest?)

I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets off on all the homicide charges and ends up with the reckless endangerment felony and the underage possession misdemeanor.
I think the guy currently on the stand is lying his ass off.
 

VashHT

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2007
3,076
882
136
They were trying to have the trial originally in Antioch area and not Kenosha. That whole failure of extradition and change of venue failed. While you may believe that Kenosha is mostly sympathetic with Kyle here, I am very skeptical on that.
Antioch is pretty damn racist so it probably would be sympathetic to him.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,277
28,136
136
Once of the victims was shot in the back. How under any circumstance can that be self defense? In a lot of districts cops can't shoot people in the back.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
6,572
7,823
136
What’s REALLY important here is that one repeats the words “rioters and looters” enough to justify murder.

I can see this little thug racist, (to whom seems to be some kind of "hero" and "patriot" by those who support him) walking. His reckless actions led to the deaths and may lead to an acquittal.

This has led to, again and again, people who decide it is their job to grab a gun and place themselves in situations where they’ll be ‘justified’ in using them.

If you are Kyle Rittenhouse, and you point a gun at me - Did you just threaten me with deadly force? If faced by an assailant with a gun - even if so far the assailant hasn’t used his gun - but he is pointing it at me - am I going to wait for him to shoot? because the instant he does, I’m dead.

if Rosenbaum was armed and, when he saw Rittenhouse waving his rifle around, and he took this as an imminent threat and blew Rittenhouse’s head off, Would he be in the clear? If Rosenbaum see's Rittenhouse, say ....across the block waving a rifle around and starts to walk toward Rittenhouse. Does Rittenhouse have the "right" to shoot him from across the street in "self defense"?

In fact, if he and Rittenhouse saw each other and in a wild west style shootout both tried to kill each other, whoever survived would be in the clear? If Rosenbaum heard the same gunshot Rittenhouse did. Except he knew Rittenhouse had a gun. If he’d shot him in the head there, the situation would be exactly the same.

This is the sign of a shitty legal system. I’d like to see the bar be higher for people who introduce guns into situations and then have to use them. Like, you’d better be damn well sure you’re right before you put yourself in that situation when you pull the trigger, and I wouldn’t mind the legal system having a way to figure that out in order to discourage this sort of vigilante bullshit.

Showing up at a town a few minutes away to “patrol the streets” with a gun and a med kit is fucking dumb. Bravely attacking with a skateboard someone who you know to be armed - even if you think they are a threat is fucking dumb, heroically dumb. Firing a warning shot at someone that you believe just murdered someone with their own firearm is equally fucking dumb.

EVERYONE involved was there looking for trouble, and that they all found what they were looking for.
 
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HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,725
1,342
136
Once of the victims was shot in the back. How under any circumstance can that be self defense? In a lot of districts cops can't shoot people in the back.

That was Rosenbaum. He was shot four times in quick, regular, succession, resulting in five wounds (one of the rounds hit his body as well as an extremity). When Rosenbaum was shot he was lunging for Kyle's weapon according to the primary witness, McGinnis. One of the shots fractured Rosenbaum's pelvis. The defense argument, which to my knowledge the prosecution has not rebutted while McGinnis has corroborated, is that the gsw to the back is due to the way Rosenbaum fell.

In and of itself, the gsw to the back is not good for the defense, but it's hardly a slam dunk for the prosecution.
 

HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,725
1,342
136
If you are Kyle Rittenhouse, and you point a gun at me - Did you just threaten me with deadly force? If faced by an assailant with a gun - even if so far the assailant hasn’t used his gun - but he is pointing it at me - am I going to wait for him to shoot? because the instant he does, I’m dead.

if Rosenbaum was armed and, when he saw Rittenhouse waving his rifle around, and he took this as an imminent threat and blew Rittenhouse’s head off, Would he be in the clear? If Rosenbaum see's Rittenhouse, say ....across the block waving a rifle around and starts to walk toward Rittenhouse. Does Rittenhouse have the "right" to shoot him from across the street in "self defense"?

In fact, if he and Rittenhouse saw each other and in a wild west style shootout both tried to kill each other, whoever survived would be in the clear? If Rosenbaum heard the same gunshot Rittenhouse did. Except he knew Rittenhouse had a gun. If he’d shot him in the head there, the situation would be exactly the same.

This is the sign of a shitty legal system. I’d like to see the bar be higher for people who introduce guns into situations and then have to use them. Like, you’d better be damn well sure you’re right before you put yourself in that situation when you pull the trigger, and I wouldn’t mind the legal system having a way to figure that out in order to discourage this sort of vigilante bullshit.

Rosenbaum makes a poor foil here. You can gain and lose the right to self defense quickly, not necessarily dependent on who is the initial aggressor, but more who is the aggressor at each moment. Rosenbaum was chasing after an armed man who tried to disengage. It's difficult to envision him mounting a successful claim of self defense.

Grosskreutz is a better example. There are times where, if he had pulled the trigger and killed Kyle, he might have had a strong self defense claim. The sticky thing would be his actions prior to him and Kyle pointing guns at one another, specifically where Kyle told him he was going to the police yet Grosskreutz pursued him and riled the mob anyway.

Because each defendant has a reasonable doubt threshold, it's entirely possible that two combatants both have strong self defense claims regardless of who lives and dies. This is a feature, not a bug. Lowering the threshold would not be an improvement to the criminal justice system. As opposed to the legal system for working as designed, gun rights would be a more valid target of your ire. Remove the guns, and the situation you take umbrage with largely ceases. Reform the legal system to more easily convict people, and you're going to send a lot more innocents to prison.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,567
7,619
136
Once of the victims was shot in the back. How under any circumstance can that be self defense? In a lot of districts cops can't shoot people in the back.

Shows how much you have paid attention to anything here.

The attacker lunges for the gun and is hit multiple times. And you DARE assert he was a victim. He got struck in the back after the first shots nailed and spun him around. It was over in just a few seconds.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
6,572
7,823
136
Rosenbaum makes a poor foil here. You can gain and lose the right to self defense quickly, not dependent on who is the initial aggressor, but who is the aggressor at each moment. Rosenbaum was chasing after an armed man who tried to disengage. It's difficult to envision him mounting a successful claim of self defense.

Grosskreutz is a better example. There are times where, if he had pulled the trigger and killed Kyle, he might have had a strong self defense claim. The sticky thing would be his actions prior to him and Kyle pointing guns at one another, specifically where Kyle told him he was going to the police yet Grosskreutz pursued him and riled the mob anyway.

Because each defendant has a reasonable doubt threshold, it's entirely possible that two combatants both have strong self defense claims regardless of who lives and dies. This is a feature, not a bug. Lowering the threshold would not be an improvement to the criminal justice system. As opposed to the legal system for working as designed, gun rights would be a more valid target of your ire. Remove the guns, and the situation you take umbrage with largely ceases. Reform the legal system to more easily convict people, and you're going to send a lot more innocents to prison.

If you wave a gun in my face, then start "disengaging" as you call it or backing away from me while still holding the gun, you are still a threat because guns are tools made for killing at long range. This wasn't a knife fight. Obviously Rittenhouse still posed a deadly threat because he managed to kill two people. If you point a firearm at me, that is already a threat of deadly force, and the difference between that threat and me being dead is a fraction of a second. So a reasonable person would attempt to use deadly force when confronted with a firearm. If you point a firearm at me, I consider that a clear and imminent threat to me. I’d say Rosenbaum had plenty of reason to fear for his life, considering how he was shot fucking dead by Rittenhouse.

Once Rittenhouse - a kid running around pointing a rifle at people - established himself as a deadly threat by confronting people and waving his gun at them, his backing away does NOT serve to lessen the threat he poses to them because guns can (and did in this case) kill at long range. Afghanistan, and The United States, it is acceptable to run around in public with open carry of deadly weapons. With reasonable people not knowing who is the "good guy with the gun". The way the law works in the US has led to people, who decide it is their job to grab a gun and place themselves in situations where they’ll be ‘justified’ in using them.

I see very little difference between going out and shooting someone, versus arming yourself and then putting yourself in a position that will ‘require’ you to use deadly force to defend yourself. If I go to the zoo and shoot a tiger from the viewing platform, OR ... if I go to the zoo, jump into the exhibit, kick at one of the tigers to get it angry at me, and THEN I shoot it - in both of those cases, I wanted to shoot a tiger; in one, I just did it while in the other I purposefully put myself in a situation in which I’d have no choice BUT to shoot a tiger, then did so. “I had no choice” might be true once I was in the cage and had kicked the tiger but there was a series of decisions that I made prior to that moment that any reasonable person could have foreseen would put me in a situation where I’d have to use my gun.

If Huber and Grosskreutz, and possibly Rosenblaum had gotten the upper hand on Rittenhouse and killed him, would they not even have been charged, or if they were charged, would they be acquitted on self-defense grounds? It does mean that yes, this is a situation where both sides could probably successfully argue self-defense.

The issue in front of the jury will be what Rittenhouse reasonably believed at the time he shot. It’s possible that Rittenhouse can be found not guilty even if the victims were operating with the best of intentions. It's very possible he will undoubtedly get off (maybe they’ll slap him with one of the lesser charges). But a legal system where two people can try their best to kill each other and both be legally justified is a fucked up system.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
6,572
7,823
136
If somebody saw someone like Rittenhouse - a teenager running around pointing a rifle at people and actually shooting people, and was in a position to try and intervene before we got yet another mass shooting on our hands, as dumb as it may be, many people like to think they’d have the courage to try, even if the only weapon they had access to was a skateboard. Isn’t that what the “good guy with a gun” people keep telling everyone needs to happen?

There was a time Rittenhouse decided he was eventually going to initiate a confrontation. When he did this - He was under no threat whatsoever, and had no rational reason to believe he was under threat. He was miles away at that time. He chose to travel there - take that gun - and enter the situation for purposes of initiating a confrontation by pointing it at people, and then he got what he wanted.
 
Reactions: Fenixgoon
Jul 9, 2009
10,722
2,064
136
I was asking a question. You said if a black man walked right by police doing exactly what KR did he would have been allowed to pass.

My response is hogwash and gave 2 examples of black males killed by police just for open carrying in an open carry state. Tamir Rice and John Crawford
and i gave you 1 showing a difference and could show many more if i wanted to surf the web.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
How about rioters, arsonists and looters? Do they have your same claim to self defense?

Were any of these "rioters, arsonists and looters" actually found guilty of same in a court of law before one of your vigilante heroes executed them?
It seems that innocent until proven guilty is only for Republican voters, according to you. And it's open season on everyone else. Because freedom, amirite troll?
 
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HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,725
1,342
136
Obviously Rittenhouse still posed a deadly threat because he managed to kill two people.

Circular reasoning.

If you point a firearm at me, that is already a threat of deadly force, and the difference between that threat and me being dead is a fraction of a second. So a reasonable person would attempt to use deadly force when confronted with a firearm.

One of your problems is that you're trying to simplify the situation into "if this broad thing, then this narrow thing follows" whereas these determinations are based on the totality of the situation. There's a big difference between having a firearm pointed at you in an obviously threatening manner, or defensively when you act in a threatening manner, or haphazardly where the wielder does not have a good understanding of firearm safety, and so on. And there are going to be countless secondary considerations for any one concrete case. Reasonableness isn't a binary thing, it exists on a spectrum.

In any situation where someone did point a firearm at you however, regardless of whether in a threatening, defensive, or neglect manner, you would be more justified to shoot them within, or immediately following, the fraction of a second where you felt threatened than if you were to start chasing after them on foot. That's not to say that chasing after them on foot would never be justified. It certainly would be justified to pursue the Christchurch shooter, for one.

At this time there is no strong evidence that Kyle threateningly bared his weapon at Rosenbaum though.

If you point a firearm at me, I consider that a clear and imminent threat to me. I’d say Rosenbaum had plenty of reason to fear for his life, considering how he was shot fucking dead by Rittenhouse.

Circular, and very dumb. Next time you see someone open carrying an AR, why don't you go ahead and charge at them and grab for their weapon? The fact that you would end up ventilated isn't proof that you had to attack.

Once Rittenhouse - a kid running around pointing a rifle at people - established himself as a deadly threat by confronting people and waving his gun at them, his backing away does NOT serve to lessen the threat he poses to them because guns can (and did in this case) kill at long range.

All the people Kyle shot were at very short range.

I disagree with the assertion that Kyle was "running around pointing a rifle at people." And I wouldn't use the phrase "established himself as a deadly threat." I will say that some of the people chasing after Kyle, not knowing the details of his encounter with Rosenbaum, and only hearing about an active shooter, would be justified in trying to apprehend him, just as Kyle was justified in defending himself from being lynched (with members in the crowd shouting things like "cranium him") after exercising self defense against Rosenbaum. This is one of those instances where both sides can be justified. I don't know if I would extend that to Grosskreutz since Kyle told him he was going to the police. If anything, Grosskreutz is especially vile for helping to rally the mob to go after someone he knew was surrendering.

I see very little difference between going out and shooting someone, versus arming yourself and then putting yourself in a position that will ‘require’ you to use deadly force to defend yourself.

It all depends on motivation. If you're open carrying to act as a deterrent, then there is no similarity at all. Usually, you don't find yourself in a situation where you are "required" to use your weapon against unarmed individuals, because those individuals know better than to attack someone who is open carrying. That's the point of open carry. In the one-in-a-million chance you find yourself charged by a psychotic pedophile who was just discharged from a mental institution, you may have to use that weapon, and if you find yourself squared up against such a lunatic, going unarmed might end even more poorly.

If you go armed hoping that someone will give you the excuse to shoot them then that's premeditation. If you admit as much you lose your claim to self defense, which has happened to a few people acting "tacticool" to responding officers.

If Huber and Grosskreutz, and possibly Rosenblaum had gotten the upper hand on Rittenhouse and killed him, would they not even have been charged, or if they were charged, would they be acquitted on self-defense grounds? It does mean that yes, this is a situation where both sides could probably successfully argue self-defense.

Rosenbaum would be charged and would have no reasonable claim to self defense. He's also a repeat offender pedophile. The book would be thrown at him.

Grosskreutz would have a very, very, strong self defense claim if Kyle hadn't told him he was surrendering to the police. But because he did, it would be tough. Maybe not impossible though.

Huber would depend on how he killed Kyle. A single lucky blow to the head with the skateboard? Very strong. Repeatedly bashing Kyle's face in with skateboard until he expires? Much less strong. Disarming Kyle and shooting him? Depends on whether they were still struggling over the gun or not, whether Kyle was trying to regain possession, etc.

The issue in front of the jury will be what Rittenhouse reasonably believed at the time he shot. It’s possible that Rittenhouse can be found not guilty even if the victims were operating with the best of intentions.

Rosenbaum and Grosskreutz had the worst of intentions, but yes, Kyle's state of mind is (or at least should be) the determining factor. You may want to consider the fact that if Kyle had gone into Kenosha looking for an excuse to kill people, the mob that chased after him was a target rich environment. He only shot at people who were an imminent threat to him. He didn't mow down the mob indiscriminately. If he were looking for an excuse to kill people, he should have.
 
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Nov 17, 2019
11,267
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How about rioters, arsonists and looters? Do they have your same claim to self defense?
Potentially, yes. Since they were out in the open, on public streets and this kid was not an owner of whatever property they may have been damaging.

We all know that even property owners cannot use deadly force in most circumstances.

There is some question about whatever possibly 'authority' may have been transferred if the deputization question is resolved, but even sworn police officers can't always use deadly force.
 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,522
759
146
This CNN video has some of the FBI video:

That tweet is inane because it's just repeating Littlebinger's lie. Had you watched the aerial video, it's laughable to suggest that Kyle did the chasing.

If you wave a gun in my face, then start "disengaging" as you call it or backing away from me while still holding the gun, you are still a threat because guns are tools made for killing at long range.

Uh, there's no point on reading further because the first part is not what happened. Rosenbaum attacked because he got agitated over the dumbest shit that night.

Rosenbaum would be charged and would have no reasonable claim to self defense. He's also a repeat offender pedophile. The book would be thrown at him.

Grosskreutz would have a very, very, strong self defense claim if Kyle hadn't told him he was surrendering to the police. But because he did, it would be tough. Maybe not impossible though.

Huber would depend on how he killed Kyle. A single lucky blow to the head with the skateboard? Very strong. Repeatedly bashing Kyle's face in with skateboard until he expires? Much less strong. Disarming Kyle and shooting him? Depends on whether they were still struggling over the gun or not, whether Kyle was trying to regain possession, etc.

If the first part was a good shoot, then both Grosskreutz and Huber would be in the wrong if they killed Kyle insofar that in a hypothetical it could represent like a trolley problem i.e. killing the person in the right might save several dummies. I'm not sure why you think their case would be very strong when a reasonable person would NOT think it was an active shooter event. Anyone that says that it does is giving approval to police shooting for the most trivial of threats.
 
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