RivaTuner 15.2 Released

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Avalon

..................6800NU .................6800GT....GT @ NU 325/700

you also miss out on half the ram of a true 6800gt, leaving you at medium quality textures for Doom3 and a lot worse off for high res and/or lots of AA.

No the 6800nu is still a Doom3 beast. It's other games that the 16-pipe, double RAM'ed, much higher memory bandwidth cards smack it down in.

Sadly, the 6800nu's memory cripples it at 1600X1200 AA/AF and often the 1280's as well with AA/AF. I'm not sure if it's just the bandwidth or it's also because of the fact that GT's/Ultras/X800's have double the physical RAM as well, but high res AA/AF absoutely demolishes the 6800nu. This is why I was thinking if the V9999GE had a good rate of software moddability then it would absolutely rock.

Otherwise the 6800nu is a solid card; especially as a 1024X768 card. But the GT really does smoke it when fillrate/memory bandwidth is a factor, and in newer games, once you hit 1280 a chasm opens up (again Doom 3 excepted).

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
I have an xt-pe in my main rig and a 6800gt in my second box.

eh?

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: jiffylube1024
No the 6800nu is still a Doom3 beast.

Sure it is quite fast in Doom3, but with only medium quality textures or high with a bit of swaping.

 

[Avalon]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
I'd call ~15% a lot worse off, and while high quality textures don't hurt the benchmark scores much on 128mb cards they do lead to some texture swaping durning gameplay.

But if you're already softmodding the card, are you going to stop there? I'm pretty sure 90% of softmodders will overclock their card, which will fill in the gap between it and the GT. I bet it can make it within 5% of it with a moderate overclock.

Yes, the card will be hurting at 16x12 with AA/AF on due to lack of memory/bandwidth compared to a GT, but most of the people buying the card with the intention to softmod are not getting it to try to turn it into the biggest beast out there. They're just going to want ~stock GT performance. Hence why they want to try to the mod. Saves em big bucks.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: jiffylube1024
No the 6800nu is still a Doom3 beast.

Sure it is quite fast in Doom3, but with only medium quality textures or high with a bit of swaping.

It's pretty obvious you're only here to rain on people's parade who hae less expensive cards than you, which is pretty sad.

When I noted that people using the Humus tweaks were only getting 1-2 fps difference in Doom3, people here rightly noted that I had no reason to decry any performance gain. (especially a free one)

I just went from 50fps to 57fps with my NU at 12X9, 2X8X, for free. My GT only gets 61fps at the same setting. That is a huge increase.

As for your attempts to claim people may have to run Doom3 at medium quality textures on NUs, you are only showing your ignorance of NUs. One of the two of us has an NU, and I would bet that it runs smoother on an NU at 12X9 2X8X High Qulaity than it does on your XT PE, just due to ATIs OpenGL drivers.

I truly doubt any NU owner has ever run Doom 3 at medium quality textures, those myths of needing 256MB RAM were pretty much debunked as soon as the HardOCP (and many other) Doom3 performance guides came out.

I can only see your repeatedly posting this free, large performance increase is worthless as trolling, because I can think of no other reason a person would post negatives here when I've posted a 10-15% increase in performance at the benchmarking I've done so far.

This is huge, the NU was the best deal at it's price point by far before, now it's the new Ti4200. Best bang for buck enthusiast card, period.

 

[Regs]

It's not, but after a modest overclock, it will come relatively close to the point where you wouldnt notice the difference in games

I would love to see 128-bit ram try to ever compete with 256-bit path memory. But it's just not going to happen anytime soon if ever.

Even with that though I would take a 6800 over a 9800p any day.

 

[Zebo]

HUGE p/p leader this is.

Ed you guys seen this smokin deal? http://shop4.outpost.com/product/4082672/

If anyone buys a 9800pro after seeing this they should be shot.

 

[Acanthus]

nice results looks ilke, i voted the bottom one because there was no results button.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Zebo
HUGE p/p leader this is.

Ed you guys seen this smokin deal? http://shop4.outpost.com/product/4082672/

If anyone buys a 9800pro after seeing this they should be shot.

Damn thats a really good price, BFG too. *hides wallet from self*

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: Acanthus

Originally posted by: Zebo
HUGE p/p leader this is.

Ed you guys seen this smokin deal? http://shop4.outpost.com/product/4082672/

If anyone buys a 9800pro after seeing this they should be shot.

Damn thats a really good price, BFG too. *hides wallet from self*

If that's the case then appopin' is trying to get people executed as we speak

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Rollo

It's pretty obvious you're only here to rain on people's parade who hae less expensive cards than you, which is pretty sad.

The hell I am.

Originally posted by: Rollo
When I noted that people using the Humus tweaks were only getting 1-2 fps difference in Doom3, people here rightly noted that I had no reason to decry any performance gain. (especially a free one)

Just like you have no reason to decry my completely valid comments here, doesn't seem to stop you though.

Originally posted by: RolloI just went from 50fps to 57fps with my NU at 12X9, 2X8X, for free. My GT only gets 61fps at the same setting. That is a huge increase.

Yes, that is a nice free boost in framerate.

Originally posted by: RolloAs for your attempts to claim people may have to run Doom3 at medium quality textures on NUs, you are only showing your ignorance of NUs. One of the two of us has an NU, and I would bet that it runs smoother on an NU at 12X9 2X8X High Qulaity than it does on your XT PE, just due to ATIs OpenGL drivers.

You can't possibly make a situation that requires more videoram than a card has run without swapping, because The card doesn't have the ram to do it!

Originally posted by: RolloI truly doubt any NU owner has ever run Doom 3 at medium quality textures, those myths of needing 256MB RAM were pretty much debunked as soon as the HardOCP (and many other) Doom3 performance guides came out.

It isn't a myth, It is a fact as stated by the lead programer of the game. I highly doubt you are going to convince anyone that you know better than the lead programer of the game.

Originally posted by: RolloI can only see your repeatedly posting this free, large performance increase is worthless as trolling, because I can think of no other reason a person would post negatives here when I've posted a 10-15% increase in performance at the benchmarking I've done so far.

Im not claiming the increase is worthless by any means, just pointing out that the mod doesn't give you a gt for the price of a nu, In the same way I will explain to people that opening pipes doesn't make a 9500pro into a 9700pro or a 128-bit 9800se into a 9800pro. I'm just trying to keep people in touch with reality here, why do you have a problem with that?

Originally posted by: RolloThis is huge, the NU was the best deal at it's price point by far before, now it's the new Ti4200. Best bang for buck enthusiast card, period.

Ah I see, you have a problem with the truth because it gets in the way of your sales pitch, eh? You never have answered me on the multiple times I have asked if you own Nvidia stock, but you sure put an effort into making it look that way. I'm not saying the nu is a bad cards by any means, it is a very nice peice of hardware. However, with all thecompetition through the mid to high range section right now, I can't see any reason to label it the best bang for the buck period unless I were trying to sell them.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Regs

It's not, but after a modest overclock, it will come relatively close to the point where you wouldnt notice the difference in games

I would love to see 128-bit ram try to ever compete with 256-bit path memory. But it's just not going to happen anytime soon if ever.

Even with that though I would take a 6800 over a 9800p any day.

They both have 256bit memory busses so that is not the issue, it is overcloking 700mhz ddr to run like 1000mhz gddr3 that is an issue. Put simply you probably wont even get close.

 

[blckgrffn]

I am running my 6800 @ 400/875, w/6 vertex units, so that isn't too bad, more than half closed the gap. And I have had no problems with stuttering w/Doom3 hq. And I run FarCry @ 1600*1200 4xaa all details set to "Very High", "Quality" setting in the NVIDIA properties, no problems. So I think that I am getting "close" to GT. Anyway, some people on these forums can't get Far Cry to run like that (evidently) on a GT. And I would agree, that if you were buying a card RIGHT NOW for under $300 or $275, that the 6800 is the best bang for the buck especially if you are willing to OC or mod. If I were looking sub $200, I would definitely wait a little while.

 

[nRollo]

Snowman:
I probably shouldn't have made my post as confrontational as I did.

Yes you are right about the texture swapping, obviously you can't fit 200MB of textures on a 128MB card. However, your saying

you also miss out on half the ram of a true 6800gt, leaving you at medium quality textures for Doom3 and a lot worse off for high res and/or lots of AA.

is nonsense.

If there is anyone in the world running Doom3 at medium textures on a 6800NU, they have no reason to do so.
What do you envision this "texture swapping" being like? Swapfile? Do you think there are points in the game where the motion just stops and your hard drive goes nuts?
It doesn't happen, the 6800NU runs Doom3 smooth as silk at 12X10, 2X8X and below. That's more than every other card on the planet except the XT PE/GT/U can say.

I can tell you from a users perspective that it isn't happening. I truly wish I had an XT PE to test, I bet my 6800NU modded provides very close to the same performance at Doom3.

As far as your "salespitch" argument goes, whatever. I have no reason to sell 6800NUs other than helping other board members.

I wish you would do the same. Telling people they have to run low res/detail on a 6800NU is not true, unless you consider 12X10 4X8X low res/low detail. Telling people they have to run Doom 3 at medium textures is totally untrue, as has been pointed out on many review site and my own experience.

When you throw into the mix a 60% chance at a 16/6 NU that offers 10-15% more performance than a stock NU, the value of this card at $269 is pretty apparent.

I like to run at higher setting on my GT sometimes as well, but the performance of an unlocked NU is nothing short of astonishing for the price. ATI has nothing at all that even comes close to this.

Telling the truth isn't being a fanboy, it's being helpful.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Regs

It's not, but after a modest overclock, it will come relatively close to the point where you wouldnt notice the difference in games

I would love to see 128-bit ram try to ever compete with 256-bit path memory. But it's just not going to happen anytime soon if ever.

Even with that though I would take a 6800 over a 9800p any day.

They both have 256bit memory busses so that is not the issue, it is overcloking 700mhz ddr to run like 1000mhz gddr3 that is an issue. Put simply you probably wont even get close.

One thing that you're not considering is the either the memory latency or timings, I don't know which. I do know that my 6800NU modified to 16/6 is considerably faster than my 6800GT downclocked to NU speeds.

I'll test more later, but I bet an OCd modded NU can come fairly close to a GT, at least below 16X12 4X8X.

 

[CU]

Mine is at 16x1, 6vp now. I went from 8610 to 9337 on 3dmark03. I will try overclocking tonight although I could only do 390/760 before.

 

[Avalon]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Regs

It's not, but after a modest overclock, it will come relatively close to the point where you wouldnt notice the difference in games

I would love to see 128-bit ram try to ever compete with 256-bit path memory. But it's just not going to happen anytime soon if ever.

Even with that though I would take a 6800 over a 9800p any day.

They both have 256bit memory busses so that is not the issue, it is overcloking 700mhz ddr to run like 1000mhz gddr3 that is an issue. Put simply you probably wont even get close.

Yes, they bother have 256bit memory Regs.
However, you don't have to overclock the memory 300mhz to get near GT performance. A lot of users are able to clock their core higher than that of a stock GT core, which also helps to close the gap. I've still got my money on a 350/800 softmodded NU being within 5% of a real GT. The only time it may not be 5% is in a 16x12 4x/8x situation. However, I certainly consider this enough to warrant calling the modded card above basically a GT. It's FAR closer to GT specs than the NU you started with.

It's the same thing as the 9500/9800SE cards. One who is softmodding should know they aren't softmodding the card straight into the pro version (except for the powercolor c3), but they require a little overclocking to get the card ~the same in performance.

If you want to put it into perspective, a GT goes for about $375 online nowadays. Let's say this modded NU at 350/800 was a real card in Nvidia's lineup. It would probably cost around $325-$350, if you wanted to price it by performance. You're still saving $75-$100 by buying a NU and doing the mod. This is the best deal you can get for a video card under $250.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Rollo
Snowman:
I probably shouldn't have made my post as confrontational as I did.

Much respect for admitting that. :thumbsup:

Originally posted by: Rollo
What do you envision this "texture swapping" being like? Swapfile? Do you think there are points in the game where the motion just stops and your hard drive goes nuts?

It doesn't make "your hard drive goes nuts" by any means; but it does lead to some stuttering the first time an Imp pulls out a fireball on a new level, as you move to a new area which hasn't had the textures loaded yet, and any other situation were the textures have to be moved from system ram into video ram during gameplay. Furthermore, I'm not envisioning anything here, I have played my fair share of Doom3 on a 128mb card so I am speaking from experience.

Originally posted by: Rollo
I wish you would do the same. Telling people they have to run low res/detail on a 6800NU is not true, unless you consider 12X10 4X8X low res/low detail.

What isn't true is your implication that I ever made such an argument; I simply said that a 6800nu is never going to be as cappable at high res/detail as a 6800gt regardless of how many pipelines you can unlock.

Originally posted by: Rollo
Telling the truth isn't being a fanboy, it's being helpful.

So would you please stop trying to make me out to look like the bad guy for doing just that?

Oh, and seriously, do you own Nvidia stock?

 

[Avalon]

Text

Here is a card for $289 that has a stock core speed of 400mhz. This would greatly help in closing the gap after a softmod.

A gainward golden sample would be a good candidate for a softmod and then a decent overclock, as well.

It's truly a shame that the Asus V9999 Gamer Edition is as expensive as a GT card. It offers the 1000mhz 256mb GDDR3 that the other NUs are lacking. It would be the perfect softmodding beast if it were about $100 less than it currently is.

 

[kylebisme]

Avalon, Turning up the core speed, or unlocking piplines for that matter, can't make up for the 300mhz of ram speed that simply isn"t there. The memory latency/timings that Rollo points out do help and so can overclockign, but you are not going to make up for missing 42% faster ram. Nothing is going to make up for the missing 128mb of ram either. This is why the v9999ge costs much more than your average 6800nu.

 

[demenion]

man... my 6800 oc's like crazy but i get artifacts when enabling the extra pipelines :/

 

[blckgrffn]

There is no way that a 16 pipe gt is worth a $100 more than a 6800 16 pipe. Or an oc'ed 12 pipe 6800. No chance. The 256 meg 9800 pro doesn't offer much more, and neither does the GT. I have been fine on hq in doom3, so I am not "envisioning" anything, either. I don't know what the big deal here is - we should be happy for the softmod.

 

[reallyscrued]

snow, u make good points of 42% faster clocks, but ur forgetting that not every game will use that whole 42%. On rollo's benches (thx for commin back & not hatin me) his modded NU chugs D3 at 57 frames while his GT only at 61.....there SURE isnt a 57% gap there..... Maybe in the future but right now pipe down (no pun intended), ive seen NU's mem clocks hit 900 mhz, 100mhz shy of a true GT. Sure many games' levels amount to around 150-300 megs of level data, but when memory is that fast, you dont have to worry about it. You cant honestly tell me that ur x800pro is a better deal.

 

[kylebisme]

I'm not forgetting that the faster ram wont always help here, reallyscrued, you can play at 640x480 low in anything for ages to come and the faster ram of a gt would mean next to nothing. Most games you will be fine at much higher setings than that, but the simple fact remains that even an unlocked and overclocked nu is going to run out of power before a real gt will. As for what card is a better or best deal, the 6800nu is basically the only deal in its price range so if that is your limit then go for it and by all means see what you can unlock as well.

However, arguing what is worth more or less and by how much is not as universal as you and blckgrffn claim. Any other reasonable choice is going to cost either more or less by a notable amount compared to what a 6800nu goes for; and, those cards are respectively capable of more or less than a 6800 with regards to that price. Hence, "the best deal" is relative to the needs of the end user. For instance, if you don't mind some occasional swapping then, like blckgrffn, you will be fine on hq in Doom3. Then again, if you don't mind the hitching then you can get away with ultra settings on a 256mb card, so that opens up another consideration. Regardless, please quit accusing me of saying anything "is a better deal" or "is worth $$$ more", or "telling people they have to run low res/detail", or any such crap as I am doing nothing of the sort.

 

[reallyscrued]

its not true that the 6800 is only card in its price range. the cheapest 256 megs (which you say are required to run doom3 @ HiQ) cards from the last generation, 9800pro, XT, 5950, are easily over 250 bucks. infact, the geforce 5950 is 350. so to the price/performance ratio, this is easily the best buy for the new generation *and* the old generation of cards.

let me explain: ~10,000 3dmarks average with a modded 6800
~13,000 3dmarks average with a 6800GT

GT is 375 while 6800 is 275 $.
This means that for the 6800, it costs 2.75cents a mark, but the GT costs 2.88cents a mark.
According to rollos benches, GT : 61 frames HiQ Doom3 Modded NU: 57 frames HiQ Doom3

GT: $6.15 a frame
Modded NU: $4.82 a frame

The only advantage i would see right now to having a GT is if you game at 1600x1200. Otherwise, the NU can push out 12*10 at 4xAA\8xAF, and its lookin really sweet.

Lets see any other card from 250-300 do that