Rivian discloses nearly $1 billion losses in IPO filing

[bigi]

For those who still think Rivian is the greatest since sliced bread. It ain't so easy.

Amazon-backed EV maker Rivian discloses nearly $1 billion losses in IPO filing

They ONLY have 48K orders for their car. So, far 0 - zero deliveries and they have been operational for 10 years. They've received TONS of $$$ from others Amazon and Ford included.

I wish them well, as I do like their car. Pity they market it as a truck, but whatever.

 

[Vic]

Yeah, a truck with 900 lb-ft of torque and 11,000 lb towing capacity is totally gonna suck, amirite?

 

[Heartbreaker]

For those who still think Rivian is the greatest since sliced bread. It ain't so easy.

Amazon-backed EV maker Rivian discloses nearly $1 billion losses in IPO filing

They ONLY have 48K orders for their car. So, far 0 - zero deliveries and they have been operational for 10 years. They've received TONS of $$$ from others Amazon and Ford included.

I wish them well, as I do like their car. Pity they market it as a truck, but whatever.

So? It's insanely expensive developing cars, and they aren't selling yet, so it's only logical that they have massive losses at this point.

Good sign for Rivian, is that they are using a regular IPO (with all the disclosure it requires) and not the SPAC route, that sketchier companies use (ex: Nikola).

 

[herm0016]

And they are actually delivering, like now. And all the reviewers have been super impressed with the product. The suv is on our short list in the next few years

 

[Viper GTS]

Only an idiot would be surprised or concerned by their losses at this point.

They have “only” 48k reservations because their reservation fee was 10 times that of their competition. I have had a Cybertruck reservation from about a week after launch and a Lightning reservation from the moment the event started. I just placed my Rivian order last week, and I have been kicking myself since for waiting.

Like everyone else I worried that they wouldn’t make it or their product wouldn’t be that great. And $100 gambles are easy to make but $1000 seemed risky. What a fool I was.

At various points I have been convinced that each of the three would be my choice. Cybertruck gives 500 mile range, Supercharger network, and proven Tesla resale value while removing something they do very poorly (paint). Lightning is essentially an F150 which is the most popular truck in existence, and could power my home. But it's enormous and far more than I really need in a daily driver. Rivian still concerns me a bit from resale value perspective but their product is absurdly impressive. It's impressive enough and right sized enough that I'm willing to gamble on the resale value.

I have a Y on order for my wife so my Supercharger access is covered even if my 3 becomes an R1T. There is little left to discourage me from buying one so I fully expect to buy one as soon as I'm up in the queue which I'm sure will be a while.

Viper GTS

 

[manly]

As everyone knows by now, OP is the biggest Elon shill in this forum and makes even ponyo look "fair and balanced."

So? It's insanely expensive developing cars, and they aren't selling yet, so it's only logical that they have massive losses at this point.

Good sign for Rivian, is that they are using a regular IPO (with all the disclosure it requires) and not the SPAC route, that sketchier companies use (ex: Nikola).

I don't have the article in front of me, but Tesla reported 8 figure losses when filing their IPO paperwork in 2010. Like you said, simple accounting when you aren't yet selling your first product. (Back then, Tesla was already selling the Roadster so they did have meager revenue.)

And they are actually delivering, like now. And all the reviewers have been super impressed with the product. The suv is on our short list in the next few years

I don't pay much attention to new cars (too expensive), but I'm pleasantly surprised at how well reviewed the Ford Mach-E and Rivian R1T have been. These are becoming exciting times for BEVs, and it's no longer Tesla or nothing.

 

[Heartbreaker]

At various points I have been convinced that each of the three would be my choice. Cybertruck gives 500 mile range, Supercharger network, and proven Tesla resale value while removing something they do very poorly (paint). Lightning is essentially an F150 which is the most popular truck in existence, and could power my home. But it's enormous and far more than I really need in a daily driver. Rivian still concerns me a bit from resale value perspective but their product is absurdly impressive. It's impressive enough and right sized enough that I'm willing to gamble on the resale value.

All of them are a much bigger truck than I would want to own. I'd prefer something around Rav4 size, but more rugged. But I follow all the new EV stuff.

Stainless steel is big bonus for the Cybertruck, as is the Supercharger network.

Ford F150 lightning is, as noted, the Electric Version of the most popular vehicle in the USA, and it looks like they did a fine job.

The Rivian R1t seems to have very nice features. Always loved the idea of a motor for each wheel, and all the reviews seem to indicate the did a great job.

I expect 3 years from now, all 3 will still be selling out, as fast as they can be built.

For me the ideal would be if Tesla Made a CyberSUV (Stainless, unpainted body) about the size of the Rav4, with a rugged AWD system and ground clearance....

 

[Viper GTS]

For me the ideal would be if Tesla Made a CyberSUV (Stainless, unpainted body) about the size of the Rav4, with a rugged AWD system and ground clearance....

You and I want basically the same thing, except I would add I want it to have something like 1000+ hp. Think Local Motors Rally Fighter with a Rivian drivetrain. Stainless would be ideal but I'm not sure anyone is going to be willing to do that.

I have hopes that Rivian's rumored R1X will come close to hitting all of this and look forward to turning whatever electric truck I end up with into one of those as soon as they are available.

Viper GTS

 

[Viper GTS]

So, 10 months later:



Forest Green/Forest Edge, underbody/21s.

I’ve been debating whether or not I’m keeping it but my god is it a lovely daily driver. Just superb.

Viper GTS

 

[vi edit]

You lucky bastard. The more I see them around Portland the more I want one.

 

[BoomerD]

That odd looking frront end put me off at first...but it's kind of grown on me. Unfortunately, they're out of my price range...and sadly, I suspect that with the financial problems that have been reported, they're not going to be around much longer. (Gawd I hope I'm wrong)

 

[manly]

That odd looking frront end put me off at first...but it's kind of grown on me. Unfortunately, they're out of my price range...and sadly, I suspect that with the financial problems that have been reported, they're not going to be around much longer. (Gawd I hope I'm wrong)

They currently have a solid pile of cash to finance the teething pains of production scaling. If they begin selling electric vans to Amazon, I'd guess that insolvency isn't a real problem. (According to CNBC, this actually began last month.)

One problem for Rivian is they won't qualify for the new federal BEV subsidies if I'm not mistaken. But since they are supply constrained for the foreseeable future, I don't think the lack of subsidies will factor in as much as how they manage profit margins. Supposedly they are losing money on current sales due to legacy pricing. They tried to raise prices months back but that caused such an uproar they quickly reverted (for all preorders I believe).

 

[Commodus]

They currently have a solid pile of cash to finance the teething pains of production scaling. If they begin selling electric vans to Amazon, I'd guess that insolvency isn't a real problem. (According to CNBC, this actually began last month.)

One problem for Rivian is they won't qualify for the new federal BEV subsidies if I'm not mistaken. But since they are supply constrained for the foreseeable future, I don't think the lack of subsidies will factor in as much as how they manage profit margins. Supposedly they are losing money on current sales due to legacy pricing. They tried to raise prices months back but that caused such an uproar they quickly reverted (for all preorders I believe).

That price hike was... bad. If you wanted one of the initial R1T or R1S quad-motor models you had to pay anywhere between $12K and $20K more; to keep the originally quoted price you had to settle for a dual-motor version that wasn't going to arrive until 2024. Rivian learned a hard lesson about a basic rule of product development: don't commit to a price unless you're absolutely sure you can stick to it, and honor that pricing even if it means taking a bath.

 

[bbhaag]

That odd looking frront end put me off at first...but it's kind of grown on me. Unfortunately, they're out of my price range...and sadly, I suspect that with the financial problems that have been reported, they're not going to be around much longer. (Gawd I hope I'm wrong)

I thought that at first to but the only time I ever saw one was just pics of it online. Once I saw it in person it totally changed my feelings about the front facia looking odd or cartoony. Then I got to take a ride in one and it was one of the coolest automotive experiences I've ever had. Really neat truck and I hope Rivian can make a go at it. We need more competition in the automotive space especially the EV space not less.

Anyway, congrats on the purchase @Viper GTS I hope it's a great vehicle for you!

 

[manly]

That price hike was... bad. If you wanted one of the initial R1T or R1S quad-motor models you had to pay anywhere between $12K and $20K more; to keep the originally quoted price you had to settle for a dual-motor version that wasn't going to arrive until 2024. Rivian learned a hard lesson about a basic rule of product development: don't commit to a price unless you're absolutely sure you can stick to it, and honor that pricing even if it means taking a bath.

Not to sound like a corporatist, but I disagree. Unless there's a deep global recession, no automaker can afford to honor 2021 pricing in 2023, which is basically the problem Rivian is facing. All automakers have been furiously raising prices and capturing extra profit while production is constrained. I agree with you that they have a terrible PR problem on their hands, and it sounds like they found a small adjustment worth making (they just canceled the lowest trim level).

Rivian booked reservations, but these are not binding purchase agreements. Legally they could have stuck to their guns with the price hikes, but they folded like a cheap suit. It's one thing for a healthy, profitable automaker to "take a bath," but no start-up automaker beginning production scaling can afford to do that. Not in an environment with 9% annual inflation.

I agree with you that better planning and setting proper expectations are key. For example, if they set prices by "model year" as legacy automakers do, then customers would expect annual price increases. By adopting the Tesla way of not having model years, they unfortunately put themselves in a bad position with no easy way out. They're also headquartered in SoCal, so their fixed costs are relatively high.

 

[Kaido]

So, 10 months later:

View attachment 66122

Forest Green/Forest Edge, underbody/21s.

Viper GTS

Dang, what a great color!

 

[Kaido]

it a lovely daily driver. Just superb.

My buddy took delivery of the Model Y I had put a deposit on, they put in a deadline of early December last year & I opted to wait for the Cybertruck. I took it for a spin the other day it's just bonkers. Modern electric vehicles are sooooooo nice!

What's your summary review of the truck so far? Pros & cons?

 

[Viper GTS]

I have a Y performance as well, that plus the R1T is IMO the best two car, do everything, nobody has to drive a slow car pair on the market at price points us mortals can afford.

The Rivian has a lot going for it, but it’s not perfect. I have a handful of build issues that need to be corrected. Basically some minor trim, seal, and bed liner fastener alignment issues. Also I seem to have a lot more wind noise on the passenger side which I’ve seen talk about so I need to figure out what’s up with that. The tonneau is a shitshow as expected. It’s mostly smooth but has an ugly snap near the end that is not remotely confidence inspiring. Interior is really good lMO much nicer than the Teslas I have had. Navigation has been a bit of a struggle, flat out failing to calculate routes a few times. I’ve had to resort to a passenger running nav on a phone which isn’t cool.

The drivetrain is of course magical, and the whole reason I have it. It doesn’t punch as hard from zero as the 3P did, but it feels much faster than the YP even if the actual delivered numbers aren’t that different. It’s got a roll in for power that I don’t love, I’d rather it just give me everything if I mat it or brake launch it. But once you are ramped to full power it is fast as shit. Pulls harder above 60 than either the 3P or YP IMO though I haven’t driven them back to back. It’s bigger and wobblier than stuff I’m used to driving but low tide height + soft suspension seems to be the sweet spot. Stiff suspension is really brutal over speed bumps even at parking lot speeds so is nearly unusable. One thing I hope they fix via software is the throttle sensitivity in sport mode. It’s so sensitive that it’s nearly impossible to drive smoothly because every little bump in the road causes your foot to move making for a jerky ride. A little smoothing on the input or something would do wonders.

It also seems to attract a lot of attention which I knew was a thing, but I look forward to it dying off once people are used to seeing them out and about. At least with dedicated fun cars you can choose whether or not you want to deal with that possibility but since it will be my daily driver I’d best be prepared to talk about it every day because people want to.

Oh one other random detail, they make you use a virtual notary. I had to full on raise my right hand in front of an iPad and swear to god that I understood the limited power of attorney so they can get me plates. Weirdest car buying experience I’ve ever had.

Viper GTS

 

[vi edit]

Yeah there's a lot of stuff that scares the crap out of me with the Rivian. Or just will end up driving me crazy.

I don't like the bed cover or the charge door setup at all. The bed cover looks like a constant warranty issue. I've read that many test drive events have them disabled. Not confidence inspiring at all.

No Android/Apple auto bugs the crap out of me too. And even more so if the GPS is flaky. That's just a giant miss.

I also don't like that even the HVAC vent directional adjustment is on the touch screen. Just more shit to break.

 

[Commodus]

Not to sound like a corporatist, but I disagree. Unless there's a deep global recession, no automaker can afford to honor 2021 pricing in 2023, which is basically the problem Rivian is facing. All automakers have been furiously raising prices and capturing extra profit while production is constrained. I agree with you that they have a terrible PR problem on their hands, and it sounds like they found a small adjustment worth making (they just canceled the lowest trim level).

Rivian booked reservations, but these are not binding purchase agreements. Legally they could have stuck to their guns with the price hikes, but they folded like a cheap suit. It's one thing for a healthy, profitable automaker to "take a bath," but no start-up automaker beginning production scaling can afford to do that. Not in an environment with 9% annual inflation.

I agree with you that better planning and setting proper expectations are key. For example, if they set prices by "model year" as legacy automakers do, then customers would expect annual price increases. By adopting the Tesla way of not having model years, they unfortunately put themselves in a bad position with no easy way out. They're also headquartered in SoCal, so their fixed costs are relatively high.

I would question why a company would set a firm price when a release was already so far off, though — it's making a promise that execs know they aren't guaranteed to keep. I'd give customers an estimated price rather than a definite figure, and make very clear that the price could change.

And even then, I'd do something for early reservation customers rather than simply telling them "surprise! Your car costs much more than you thought it did." Like reducing the hike or giving them an optional feature for free.

I look at it this way: taking a financial hit is bad, but not nearly as bad as tarnishing a company's reputation before it has even shipped a meaningful number of vehicles. Investors can often provide extra funding; there's little guarantee that a brand will recover from a rep for burning customers.