RMA Abuse.

[wchou]

How about limit the warranty to 30 days, 90 days and 180 days?
30= free
90 =10.00
180= 20.00
Lot's of $, good marketing. Don't you say? Agree or disagree?

 

[rcomo]

Disagree. Listen, dishonest people is a small portion of the market; this is asking a business to manage to the exception instead of the norm.

 

[Texun]

An RMA is a safety net for customers who receive damaged or defective goods and it often gets abused. Newegg, for example, often has a ton of motherboards, cards and cpu's listed in their clearance bin. I've bought a few clearance items and only got burned once, but maybe it was because I didn't OC it as much as the person who sent it back when he OC'd his 9800PRO and got artifacts. I step up next and take a chance on something that someone else may or may not have known what they were doing with. Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose, but there's no chance NE or any other retailer in their right mind is going to eat the loss and you can bet that we'll all pay for a piece of it when we make out next purchase. The cost isn't always reflected in the sale price. Look at NE's shipping fees for Fed-X saver. Newegg doesn't do anything special with Fed-X Saver. You think it costs $9.89 to send two sticks of RAM? Not all items are like that, but you can be sure that items that move well will either be priced higher with free shipping or lower with a fee. Nothing is free anymore. Also, companies that ship thousands of packages don't pay the same rate as you or I would pay, they work from a negotiated rate with the shipping company.

I also have an ethics problem with RMA abuse. RMA's should not be a fail safe mechanism to try a mod because there is no risk.

I once worked for QVC, who at one time had an unbelievable return policy. People would buy dinnerware in November and return dirty dishes in January for a refund. They would also buy complete computer systems and ship them back with no CPU, HD or memory and demand a full refund. Funny? Maybe, but they killed the return policy. You can still return items but it's not as easy as it once was. It's the same for any business gets hammered by abusers.

Electronic items are the worst because of a lower markup. To remain competitive, retailers work on a thin profit margin and survive by doing volume business. Cut that margin even more by abuse and certain perks cease to exist.

Rant mode off.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Googer
[*]Overclocking, or running a part outside of its specification does and can damage it no matter what voltage you
decide to use. Trust me, you dont seem to TRUELY know what you are talking about.

You're telling this to someone who's been overclocking systems for 6 years now. Believe me, I know all about the risks involved. Your statement that damage occurs regardless of voltage implies that you are the one who doesn't know what he's talking about.

IME, 99% of CPU burnouts occur due to too much voltage and/or not enough cooling. Period. An experienced and careful overclocker will not burn out a CPU if they know what they're doing. If you watch your temperatures and carefully test for stability as you go, the chances of burnout are very slim. For the record, I do not condone RMAing a CPU that one kills due to their own incompetence.

If you fried your videocards, you boosted the core too high too fast without properly testing for artifacts and monitoring your temperatures and PSU voltage rails. I'm surprised you didn't learn your lesson when the first one burned out. You're saying I'm the one who doesn't know what he's talking about? I think you need to take a look in the mirror before you continue to make such accusations at people who know more about overclocking than you do. :thumbsdown:

The general concensus seems to be that you're being a waah waah. "Waaaaah! People are RMAing their processors! Waaaah make them stop!". Just live and let live. It's the manufacturer's problem, and if they can't deal with the issue and change their policies, then you can't blame people for RMAing things. Computer hardware is extremely affordable. I built my last company a workstation for $300CDN awhile back. RMAs only account for a small percentage of what we pay, and the RMA process is a necessary beast in the computer industry.

 

[rcomo]

Last point by me (maybe - I reserve the right to make more ?: )

RMAs wouldn't be necessary if computer hardware wasn't faulty after production/within a certian time period after purchase.

 

[Texun]

Originally posted by: rcomo
Last point by me (maybe - I reserve the right to make more ?: )

RMAs wouldn't be necessary if computer hardware wasn't faulty after production/within a certain time period after purchase.

You're right. That'd be great.

When I got my rant mode on a while ago I wasn't complaining about legit RMA's. We need 'em when parts are bad or don't work as promised. The kicker for me is when someone buys product X and expects it to run like an X+ and doesn't. Take an Barton 2500 for example: If it goes belly up under normal use I should return it, but not if it won't hit XP3200 speeds or burns up trying. That's my bad and I should own it. If I am confident enough to push everything to 11 then I'm fine with the risk, but a noob who pushes and breaks it should also own all the pieces. JMO.

 

[wchou]

Originally posted by: rcomo
Disagree. Listen, dishonest people is a small portion of the market; this is asking a business to manage to the exception instead of the norm.

True but those who pay nothing won't be able to abuse the rma policy. If they paid then they have the privilege to do so
Like an insurance policy, makes total sense to me!!

 

[dszd0g]

Originally posted by: rcomo
RMAs wouldn't be necessary if computer hardware wasn't faulty after production/within a certian time period after purchase.

Unfortunately testing is often the largest cost of a product. A lot of companies only test a few parts from a bin when they know that the other 98% are good. They will accept that they will have 2% returns and that is cheaper than testing every part. Not all companies do this, the company I work for guarantees to our customers that we test every part, but we do not guarantee that we test every possible combination.

 

[RichPLS]

You suck scum slurpees Goober

 

[jonnyGURU]

This guy is not me, by the way.

 

[RadiclDreamer]

Originally posted by: wchou

Originally posted by: rcomo
Disagree. Listen, dishonest people is a small portion of the market; this is asking a business to manage to the exception instead of the norm.

True but those who pay nothing won't be able to abuse the rma policy. If they paid then they have the privilege to do so
Like an insurance policy, makes total sense to me!!

knob....

 

[dszd0g]

Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
This guy is not me, by the way.

I am not sure where that came from.

 

[DGath]

Originally posted by: Googer
Apparently, you have not read this whole thread. So for those of you too lazy to read, I will say I again for the 5th+ time RMA's are ok I have used them for an IDE hard drive and a SCSI Controler that did not have a BIOS installed. What is not ok is to take advantage of the system, intentionally destroy something and then RMA it saying that it just broke and you dont know why. That is fraud. Its costs Consumers money.

Ok, I'm going to bite. You are obviously getting off talking down to others and standardizing your morals and ethical principles to everyone. I'll also go ahead and divuldge that I've never seen the point of most overclocking. What? Risk your hardware for another 3 frames/second in Half Life 2? No thanks. That said...

First question? Why the hell would someone intentionally destroy a motherboard? They might be careless, they might be stupid, but .0001% of RMAs are from people intentionally destroying an item. That is a careless argument and a gross over-exaggeration.

I'll gladly pay the tiny amount on average I bet we pay for the "RMA factor" built in to the price to know that my RMA will be painless and quick. How many chips does Intel sell a year? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? More? Don't know, don't really care, but with such a massive volume, do you actually think the LGA RMAs you speak so much of make much of a dent at all on the consumer end? The vast majorities of their chips are sold to OEMs and never touch the end-users hands for self-installation.

Performance motherboards are a bit different so we might pay another few bucks, but anything significant? No. I think you overestimate the number of people who fry their boards and RMA them. If it was a significant cost, they'd go the route of Intel boards and limit/lock overclocking.

Stop and think about how many computers are self built and how many are built by a manufacturer. Now... of all computers bought, 1% are self built. Of that self-built, another 1% RMA a part. Of those RMAs, 1% are not legitimate RMAs. Can .01% make a dent in your wallet? Nothing significant. It's not like anything will drop even 10% in price.

10000 motherboards sold @ $100/. 100 RMA'd. 1 carelessly fried. Company distributes carelessly fried cost to everyone on next round and raises price...

(drumroll)

1 cent

(Those numbers are more convenient than based on anything, but I think you get my point.)

And you are making a huge deal about this? C'mon. For the 25% price increase thrown out there earlier by someone I'm too lazy to look up, 1 out of every 50 boards would have to be carelessly fried and RMA'd.

*Disclaimer - My math skills suck, but I think my figures are correct.

And finally... You keep saying we should keep this thread on topic, how about posting in the right forum next time? Not that this can't be classified as "General Hardware," but there are definitely better suited forums to post in rather than picking the popular forum. IMO, monitoring your own thread like a hawk after posting a controversial topic and chastising anyone who says anything different is all a bit childish in my opinion. Until you pull out numbers and figures, you are simply arguing based off of an opinion that you are reluctant to move even the slightest bit from. Nobody is perfect (me and you included).

 

[dszd0g]

Originally posted by: DGath
*Disclaimer - My math skills suck, but I think my figures are correct.

The figures do not look right to me. I think the main thing you forgot to account for is what the actual cost of the RMA is to the company: retesting the part or just assuming it is dead, some parts are fixed when bad while others are replaced, sending the replacement, and handling the paperwork. I do not know what the actual numbers are and it will vary a lot between parts that are expensive and fixed, versus those that are cheap where replacing it with a new one is cheaper than testing.

However, your overall point looks valid to me.

 

[DGath]

Originally posted by: dszd0g

Originally posted by: DGath
*Disclaimer - My math skills suck, but I think my figures are correct.

The figures do not look right to me. I think the main thing you forgot to account for is what the actual cost of the RMA is to the company: retesting the part or just assuming it is dead, some parts are fixed when bad while others are replaced, sending the replacement, and handling the paperwork. I do not know what the actual numbers are and it will vary a lot between parts that are expensive and fixed, versus those that are cheap where replacing it with a new one is cheaper than testing.

However, your overall point looks valid to me.

I was figuring the cost of simply throwing them out, but it will actually be cheaper to repair them like manufacturers do because, well... otherwise they wouldn't bother. They'll always go the least expensive route.

So it is likely less expensive, but when adding in the other unaccountable factors like you said, it probably evens out. Like I said before, just kinda guessing with all this stuff, but it gives you a general idea that anyone this upset about illegitimate RMA's is misguided.

 

[tart666]

Originally posted by: wchou
How about limit the warranty to 30 days, 90 days and 180 days?
30= free
90 =10.00
180= 20.00
Lot's of $, good marketing. Don't you say? Agree or disagree?

this would make sense, as long as you know you gonna void the warranty by OC, why pay for it?

 

[NewBlackDak]

I have mixed feelings on this. In 9+ years of putting together my own PC I've had only 1 part that was bad when I opened the box. I've also had an harddrive fail within 2 days. The bad part was a video card from Newegg. They overnighted me a new one, and I shipped the busted one back. The hdd was bought at a B&M, and I returned it without issue. I'm glad to be able to return them easily and quickly.
I've been overclocking for ~5. I've killed 2 video card(1 careless vmod, 1 crushed core from rushing), 2 motherboards(1 blown caps from huge overclock, 1 killed when a screw was between it and tray), and 1 cpu(broke pins installing in a hurry).
I owned up to all of these, and will continue to. Every one was still in it's warranty period. Several people told me to just remove the vmod from teh video card, and send it in. The same ones told me to say the motherboard with blown caps dids that under normal operating parameters. I just can't do it.

The problem is if more people would own up to their problems/mistakes the world sould be a much better place. The society in the US now just breeds "do what you feel like cause its not your fault". I think half our problem is the mental health field telling everyone it's not their fault since they had a bad childhood, and then medicate them. Grow up, get over it, be an adult, and don't make someone else pay for your mistakes.

 

[DGath]

Originally posted by: NewBlackDak
The problem is if more people would own up to their problems/mistakes the world sould be a much better place.

Better place? Completely agree. Cheaper place? Not enough to make a fuss over.

Good points.

 

[NewBlackDak]

Originally posted by: DGath

Originally posted by: NewBlackDak
The problem is if more people would own up to their problems/mistakes the world sould be a much better place.

Better place? Completely agree. Cheaper place? Not enough to make a fuss over.

Good points.

I agree.
I you sell 1/2 million units worldwide, and say 100 come back fraudulently. How, exactly is it hurting? What hurts more is if you actually put out bad product, and have to repair/replace 20000.

The dishonest RMAs probably account for 1/10 of $.01 per part at most. Even if it accounted for more and companies stopped the RMA process they wouldn't pass on the savings now. They'll charge what they can get for a part. That's how business works.

Also stopping the RMA process alltogether would make consumer rights groups go nuts here in the US.

 

[Robor]

Hasn't this horse been beaten to death already? Everyone knows it's wrong to RMA something broken as a result of your own mistake. Honest people aren't going to do it and no amount of ranting is going to change the thought process of a dishonest person. As someone stated before, some people just suck. It's a fact of life.

 

[Supafreak]

LOL
look at his sig....
he uses AOL

How can anyone take something seriously if it is said by somone using AOL?

 

[Googer]

Originally posted by: Supafreak
LOL
look at his sig....
he uses AOL

How can anyone take something seriously if it is said by somone using AOL?

LOL I use AOL, Beause ITS Free FTP SPACE! I have Road Runner as my primary ISP, and Dont pay any thing for AOL.

I do use AOL For quick News Bites and Instant messaging my family.
I get Free Anti Virus support ,discounts on services and merchandise

 

[Googer]

Originally posted by: rcomo
Last point by me (maybe - I reserve the right to make more ?: )

RMAs wouldn't be necessary if computer hardware wasn't faulty after production/within a certian time period after purchase.

Yes, you do reserve the right to make more if you feel it is necessary.

 

[Googer]

Originally posted by: NewBlackDak
I have mixed feelings on this. In 9+ years of putting together my own PC I've had only 1 part that was bad when I opened the box. I've also had an harddrive fail within 2 days. The bad part was a video card from Newegg. They overnighted me a new one, and I shipped the busted one back. The hdd was bought at a B&M, and I returned it without issue. I'm glad to be able to return them easily and quickly.
I've been overclocking for ~5. I've killed 2 video card(1 careless vmod, 1 crushed core from rushing), 2 motherboards(1 blown caps from huge overclock, 1 killed when a screw was between it and tray), and 1 cpu(broke pins installing in a hurry).
I owned up to all of these, and will continue to. Every one was still in it's warranty period. Several people told me to just remove the vmod from teh video card, and send it in. The same ones told me to say the motherboard with blown caps dids that under normal operating parameters. I just can't do it.

The problem is if more people would own up to their problems/mistakes the world sould be a much better place. The society in the US now just breeds "do what you feel like cause its not your fault". I think half our problem is the mental health field telling everyone it's not their fault since they had a bad childhood, and then medicate them. Grow up, get over it, be an adult, and don't make someone else pay for your mistakes.

You are a very respectable overclocker I hope that all others take note and be more like you. A+

AN OUTSTANDING CITIZEN OF THE PC COMMUNITY.

 

[klah]

Originally posted by: NewBlackDak

Grow up, get over it, be an adult, and don't make someone else pay for your mistakes.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: