RMA Abuse.

[VirtualLarry]

Actually, I just thought of something, perhaps NewEgg not doing mobo RMAs might have something to do with NVidia's recent mfg changes, to "lock out" the ability to mod an NF4 Ultra board to an NF4 Ultra-SLI board, and they don't want customers buying them, failing to mod them, and then trying to return them. It could just be temporary, but ... it's also quite possible that they simply don't want to deal with the hassle, and I agree with mech's post from Dec., there are a lot of boards with compatibility issues out-of-the-box because of old BIOSes and the speed that the industry is moving forward these days.

 

[batmanuel]

Originally posted by: VirtualLarry
Actually, I just thought of something, perhaps NewEgg not doing mobo RMAs might have something to do with NVidia's recent mfg changes, to "lock out" the ability to mod an NF4 Ultra board to an NF4 Ultra-SLI board, and they don't want customers buying them, failing to mod them, and then trying to return them. It could just be temporary, but ... it's also quite possible that they simply don't want to deal with the hassle, and I agree with mech's post from Dec., there are a lot of boards with compatibility issues out-of-the-box because of old BIOSes and the speed that the industry is moving forward these days.

I agree that it could be what is happening with the NF4 Ultras. From the time I read about the DFI Ultras that were designed with the intention of being able to be modded into SLI boards thanks to the dual x16 slots, it struck me as a huge headache waiting to happen.

If I was going the SLI route, I'd just pay the extra money not to have to screw around with making sure I got the right BIOS, drivers and chipset revision to get the mod to work right. If I'm going to lay out the cash for a pair of midrange to high-end graphics cards, why be stingy on your mobo?

 

[dszd0g]

Originally posted by: Googer
I was thinking of the USA when I said that. Europe is a totaly differant Animal when it come to warrneties, Especially Germany.
We won't loose RMA's and warrenties but we will loose the quality, leingth of time, and ease at which warrenty claims are made. Instead of 3 years we may end up with 3 months.

I am not a lawyer.

Most states in the US have an implied warranty of merchantability.

In California for example, "unless a conspicuous writing is attached to the goods which clearly informs the buyer, prior to the sale, in simple and concise language" that the sale is "as is" or "with all faults" there is an implied or express warranty. This cannot be less than 30 days. The retailer must honor this warranty but they may refer the buyer to another party (like the manufacturer) to honor the warranty.

CA Codes 1792-1795.7

One does have to be careful, because I have seen some local retailers on the back of receipts label certain sales like CPUs "as is". That probably fulfills the legal requirement for conspicuous, although not mine personally.

Some states do not allow "as is" sales, like West Virginia, all sales have an implied warranty of merchantability.

The implied warranty of merchantability only covers that the item fulfills the basic duties that it was sold to perform. Like a watch should keep time, a motherboard should boot the computer and operate for a reasonable period of time. It is not as good as most manufacturers express warranties. However, manufacturers generally have such express warranties to protect them in other areas, for instance, if the motherboard just worked but the USB did not, but they advertised USB, they could be sued for false advertising if the USB did not work.

Basically, in my opinion the only reason most manufacturers and retailers have warranties is that they are required to by law or to cover themselves from lawsuits. In other words, it is cheaper and businesses do what is cheaper.

 

[dszd0g]

I would also like to add to my previous post that just because something is the law does not mean retailers will follow it. Lots of retailers in California charge surcharges on credit cards even though it is illegal. I have pointed out the statute to some retailers and they have told me that unless I plan to sue them over it they are unlikely to change and that they could not afford to follow that law. Most businesses knowingly violate some laws as a lot of people speed in their cars.

 

[Gannon]

I dont really think RMA abuse is a problem considering the people actually modifying their boards is insignificant to the mass marketplace. Remember Anandtech savvy users are not MAINSTREAM in the least, also I really really doubt RMA fraud is what hurts the industry, what hurts the industry is bad planning and design in the initial stages of product development by not working out the bugs. I have plenty of bad consumer routers sitting around and it was in no way the fault of the consumer for the crappy quality of the routers.

I had a dlink router that works but constantly interrupts connections, so it makes gaming and streaming things annoying as hell and they refused my RMA because I didn't have the original purchase receipt but I did have the box, manual and UPC. Which made me mad. The fact is that businesses are just as much at fault as some end users. Businesses are not free from human greed and wanting to exploit the marketplace for quick bucks.

Trying to rip off the consumer by using the same chips but limiting its ability (i.e. Nvidia and SLI). These kinds of people are the theives here not the end users that want to maximize their performance for what they pay and are savvy enough to get around the cheap locks and save a bundle of money.

Many cheap and mediocre products are made for the PC every year in order to cash in since there are no standards for quality among some PC components. Making modern electronics like some motherboards is not trivial task and you're going to have a defect rate even on "perfect" production processes. Thinking that all things made are perfect off the production lines is naive considering the volume of production.

 

[Googer]

Originally posted by: Gannon
I dont really think RMA abuse is a problem considering the people actually modifying their boards is insignificant to the mass marketplace. Remember Anandtech savvy users are not MAINSTREAM in the least, also I really really doubt RMA fraud is what hurts the industry, what hurts the industry is bad planning and design in the initial stages of product development by not working out the bugs. I have plenty of bad consumer routers sitting around and it was in no way the fault of the consumer for the crappy quality of the routers.

I had a dlink router that works but constantly interrupts connections, so it makes gaming and streaming things annoying as hell and they refused my RMA because I didn't have the original purchase receipt but I did have the box, manual and UPC. Which made me mad. The fact is that businesses are just as much at fault as some end users. Businesses are not free from human greed and wanting to exploit the marketplace for quick bucks.

Trying to rip off the consumer by using the same chips but limiting its ability (i.e. Nvidia and SLI). These kinds of people are the theives here not the end users that want to maximize their performance for what they pay and are savvy enough to get around the cheap locks and save a bundle of money.

Many cheap and mediocre products are made for the PC every year in order to cash in since there are no standards for quality among some PC components. Making modern electronics like some motherboards is not trivial task and you're going to have a defect rate even on "perfect" production processes. Thinking that all things made are perfect off the production lines is naive considering the volume of production.

On my job, there is an 18 year old "kid" who said to me the other day that he "Spilled Beer on His Xbox" and he said it was 2 1/2 years old and I told him it was was no longer under warrenty, but if it was they were not going to replace it; because the damage caused was your own fauld. He proceded to tell me that he planned on buying another xbox from a major retail chain. His plan was to buy the new xbox and put the old one in to the brand new packageing, then take it to the store a day later and say the one he bought was defective and get his money back; He said his buddies have done the same thing. This my friends is a classic example of RMA Abuse and I hear about these more than I would like to. The problem is much bigger than you think.

 

[Matthias99]

Trying to rip off the consumer by using the same chips but limiting its ability (i.e. Nvidia and SLI). These kinds of people are the theives here not the end users that want to maximize their performance for what they pay and are savvy enough to get around the cheap locks and save a bundle of money.

NVIDIA may or may not be purposefully limiting their chips (maybe some fraction of them just don't work in SLI mode, and these get used as regular NF4 Ultra chipsets, along with some of the SLI-capable ones to make up the slack). Or maybe they individually test all the "SLI" ones to make sure the SLI functionality works, but they only spot-test the NF4 Ultra samples. You just don't know.

The manufacturer sets the terms of the warranty on a product. If you violate the terms, the warranty is void. If you don't like their warranty policies, don't buy the product!

 

[Googer]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Trying to rip off the consumer by using the same chips but limiting its ability (i.e. Nvidia and SLI). These kinds of people are the theives here not the end users that want to maximize their performance for what they pay and are savvy enough to get around the cheap locks and save a bundle of money.

NVIDIA may or may not be purposefully limiting their chips (maybe some fraction of them just don't work in SLI mode, and these get used as regular NF4 Ultra chipsets, along with some of the SLI-capable ones to make up the slack). Or maybe they individually test all the "SLI" ones to make sure the SLI functionality works, but they only spot-test the NF4 Ultra samples. You just don't know.

The manufacturer sets the terms of the warranty on a product. If you violate the terms, the warranty is void. If you don't like their warranty policies, don't buy the product!

Agreed

 

[MrChad]

Some manufacturers will grant RMAs even when you acknowledge that the product's failure was due to your own error.

I posted a thread earlier about my own experience with this. I replaced the stock cooler on my ATI All-In-Wonder 9800, not to overclock but to reduce noise levels. The card worked fine for a few weeks before it finally died.

I submitted an online repair/warranty service request to ATI. I explained in detail exactly what I did and acknowledged that my actions voided my warranty. Despite this admission, ATI replaced my card at no charge.

I agree with the original poster that deceiving a manufacturer or retailer in order to obtain an RMA is immoral and wrong.

 

[timswim78]

If motherboard manufacturers include features for overclocking, and the thing fries when the user overlocks it, then I see no problem with an RMA. However, if users circumvent built in controls via BIOS, software, and hardware mods, then the user should be responsible for damages.

 

[Yossairian]

Originally posted by: MrChad

I posted a thread earlier about my own experience with this. I replaced the stock cooler on my ATI All-In-Wonder 9800, not to overclock but to reduce noise levels. The card worked fine for a few weeks before it finally died.

I submitted an online repair/warranty service request to ATI. I explained in detail exactly what I did and acknowledged that my actions voided my warranty. Despite this admission, ATI replaced my card at no charge.

Interesting, I had almost the exact same thing happen w/ a PNY 6800GT. I tried to contact their RMA department, and was told warrenty void, sorry. I then asked if they had any repair service, or could at least look at the card to determine ( if possible ) that that caused the failure. They said, it not so many words, sorry you need to buy a new card.

Now dont get me wrong, they were completely in the right.. I knew exactly what I was doing, and was made aware beforehand of the risks. I harbor no ill feelings twords PNY. I understand they do not want to be liable for people hacking their cards up w/ questionable cooling devices then expecting them to fix it.

HOWEVER.. This is the 3rd story I have heard about ATI going above and beyond to help thier customers out, so for my next card I will likely be looking there. I just wish they had a competitor right now for the 6800GT AGP, I would be looking at them now.

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: Googer
I hate Guys like you that think that they can tweak and burn motherboards up; and when you make a mistake you then RMA the Damn thing and say it was not your fault that the board, memory, cpu, Video Card, etc were defective (so blame it on the Manufacturer). All you are doing is abusing the system making life more difficult for the next guy who really did get a bad product and one day we may no longer be able to send Real Manufacturars Defects back all because of you punk tweakers who send stuff THEY BROKE back and have no clue what they are hell they are REALLY doing. Get a real educated background before you decide to tweak any thing and then you may never need to RMA anything. Periond End the abuse that is costing us all money.
alt.end.rant

Listen you little whiner.... I have little sympathy for companies that put options in the default manufacturers bios that none of the existing components use....Why have 400HTT options unless the board can do it.....If I theoretically set my 1.8ghz to 4.5multi and 400HTT to get same clock speed I should still be in spec...especially if I use the 100mhz ddr divder...So what is the fvcking point??? If they give you an option for 400HTT it damn well better work....If they give you an option for overvolting vdimm and vcore to certain numbers then why not...if the board craps out delivering that power i think it is their fault...

Dont offer the shite if you cant deliver....If I kill a cpu with overvolting I would never rma it......It is my fault and amd is not giving me the options to overvolt it.....

If I kill ram sticks from going beyond spec voltages or trying to run tighter timings then it is my fault....Fortunatley most ram cant seem to run spec timings with an oc'd A64 anyways...so pretty much covered there...

I guess I agree with you on all components except mobos...They put the options in them, FVCK them. I wont blame them for the countless crap they ruin when their boards do not deliver on these options and crap out....so I think they can eat it!!!

No sympathy for mobo manufacturers....stop making enthusiast baords for less then 10% of the market if they cant take the rma...If you look at the enthusiast bopards are already a premium so maybe they are already hedging their bets that enthusiast will have issues with their lies...400TT on my Neo2...Thing wont do past 335 stable no matter the multiplier. Their half-ass attempt to apply thermal paste and substandard coolning on the chipset pretty much nullifies that...heck we should all rma are boards cause they wont run 400HTT as shown in the bios!!!