Road bike snobs

Cdubneeddeal

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2003
7,473
3
81
Well I'm building (Well will be soon as soon as the frame/fork arrive) a road bike which will be mostly a commuter during the week but will ride as much as I can during the weekend. The frame is a KHS Flite 500 and carbon fork. I would like to keep the build under $700 (Frame and fork included) and of course would like to keep it light as possible.

First off. Is the Ultegra lineup worth the little bit extra money or could I get by with the 105? Seems the double 105 cranks could be had for under $70 shipped. Should I get 105 all the way around or could I mix and match different components? Also seems the most expensive part of the build will be the shifters ($200 oh my). Your advice is greatly appreciated.
 

Safeway

Lifer
Jun 22, 2004
12,074
9
81
Alright, first, you should definitely not use the phrase 'get by with the 105'.

The Shimano 105 group is stellar. 105, Ultegra, and Dura-Ace are all excellent choices. My daily commuter road is a Specialized Roubaix Comp with Ultegra. 105 and Ultegra are great component groups, and are more durable than Dura-Ace and a bit heavier. For the money, 105 is a no brainer. The weight differential is minimal, and you shouldn't worry much about it.

Save weight were it counts the most, on your wheels. Take the money you saved on the components and buy a nicer wheel set.
 

Cdubneeddeal

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2003
7,473
3
81
Thank you for your input Safeway. I would join the Bikeforums but it seems that forum is full of elitist type of bikers - don't want to jump into the fire. Would you happen to know if the older models of 105 are compatible with the newer models. I'll do some research in the meantime but I just want to make sure I'm making informed decisions before I move forward with the build.

Originally posted by: Lothar
Do you plan on wearing a helmet?


Of course. Most likely going to get a Giro.
 

Safeway

Lifer
Jun 22, 2004
12,074
9
81
Eh, depends on how old the 105 is. Also, I don't think 10-speed has propagated to 105 yet, but I do know that 8-speed and 9-speed 105 is available.

I assume you want Shimano 105 Bravers (Brake and Shift Levers). I believe that they are compatible with older 105 components, but I'd do some research before you make a purchase just to be sure.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,543
651
126
105 is good stuff but if you have the extra money, I would upgrade the rear dérailleur to Ultegra, it'll provide a slighter smoother shift and be a little more durable.
 

Dirigible

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2006
5,960
30
91
Originally posted by: Cdubneeddeal
Thank you for your input Safeway. I would join the Bikeforums but it seems that forum is full of elitist type of bikers - don't want to jump into the fire. Would you happen to know if the older models of 105 are compatible with the newer models. I'll do some research in the meantime but I just want to make sure I'm making informed decisions before I move forward with the build.

While I am a mountain bike snob, not a road bike snob, I do ride roads to the tune of 2000-3000 miles a year, so I'll give input.

I agree with Safeway. Shimano's 105 stuff is nothing to "get by" with. It's high-end stuff that works well. Unless you're racing at a high level, it's more than enough. On my tandem, I've got an Ultegra front shifter and a Tiagra rear shifter, and the Tiagra feels less precise and a bit more plastic-y, but it's worked flawlessly so far. I also agree that good light wheels make a huge difference over cheap heavy wheels.

10-speed has indeed already migrated to 105, but you can still easily pick up 9-speed 105 if you want it. Tiagra is the highest level where the new stuff is still 9-speed, I think.

More info:

The cheapest Shimano source I know of (absent good sales elsewhere) is Chain Reaction in the UK. http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/

They ship free to the U.S. if you order over about 150 pounds (monetary, not weight unit, about $300) of stuff, and do it pretty quickly - takes about a week or so. You may receive some OEM parts, so be aware of that and go elsewhere if it bothers you. 105 shifters are $170 there right now. (I don't know why roadie shifters are so expensive.)

You can mix and match levels. People often go a step lower on the front derailleur, for example.

Regarding compatibility, it's not a matter of old v. new models, it's a matter of spacing and cable pull. You'll want 9-speed shifters if you have a 9-speed cassette, and a 9-speed chain to go with them. A 10-speed 105 shifter won't be compatible with an older 9-speed cassette, so not all old/new parts combinations will work.

The derailleur is a dumb part that follows the orders of the shifters, so anything made for 8- or 9- speed derailleurs are interchangeable, and I'm pretty sure they're interchangable with 10-speed derailleurs as well. (I've refused to put 10-speed stuff on my bikes, so don't have a lot of experience with them.)

I wouldn't count on a 9-speed Campy shifter working with a 9-speed Shimano derailleur and cassette. They possibly have different cable pulls per shift click and the der. could move a different amount in response to a given cable pull. Best to keep shifter-derailleur combos with one company unless you know for sure it'll work. Make sure your front shifter can handle a double crankset if that's what you're getting.
 

Dirigible

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2006
5,960
30
91
Oh, and you can also interchange some mountain and road bike parts, if you feel like it. My Tiagra rear shifter on the tandem controls an XT rear derailleur to switch cogs on a 11-34 SRAM mountain cassette. We need the extra low gears when tandem riding.

You probably won't want to do that, but if you happen to have mountain parts lying around unused, it may save you a few bucks.
 

Cdubneeddeal

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2003
7,473
3
81
Wow, thank you for the detailed response Dirigible. I don't know why road shifters are so expensive as well but I chose this type of cycling habit so I guess I need to deal with it. I at first wanted a mountain bike but I want to get where I want to get fast, and I know I could get there faster on a road bike. Maybe a mountain bike is in my future for some fun during the weekends.

Also, I've heard about the campy group being incompatible with the Shimano side so I've ommited that from my search habits.
 

Cdubneeddeal

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2003
7,473
3
81
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
105 is excellent stuff, and yes, 105 is 10 speed now...has been for almost a year.

Okay...I have a stupid question regarding the speed count. Now, if you have double rings up front, and 10spd cassette, wouldn't that make it 20spd? I guess I'm having difficult understanding the whole "spd" count.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,534
911
126
Originally posted by: Cdubneeddeal
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
105 is excellent stuff, and yes, 105 is 10 speed now...has been for almost a year.

Okay...I have a stupid question regarding the speed count. Now, if you have double rings up front, and 10spd cassette, wouldn't that make it 20spd? I guess I'm having difficult understanding the whole "spd" count.

Technically, yes, (at least that's how they used to refer to the number of speeds on a bike) but since many of the possible gearing combinations overlap now they just refer to the cassette when saying 8, 9, or 10 spd. You refer to your crankset as either a double or a triple.

I can drop to the lower chainring on my double with one tap of my brifter (brake/shifter) and likewise go down a couple cogs in the rear at the same time by tapping on the other brifter and be turning the same cadence but I'll be better prepared for gear changes coming up (like an approaching climb) and not upset my pace at all.

Oh, and I wouldn't say I'm a "road bike snob", I just have no use for a mtb so I sold mine years ago. They aren't nearly as efficient for use on paved roads as a road bike is...nor do they handle as well.
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,868
1,516
126
just out of curiosity, from low to high, what are the different Shimano lines? is it 105, Tiagra, Ultegra, Dura ace?
 

Dessert Tears

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2005
1,100
0
76
I have 10-speed 105 on my road bike; it works great. The best way to distinguish between the different model years is to go by part number, especially if you're ordering online. Certain drivetrain substitutions can be made, but I personally wouldn't plan on using them.

Since you're building a commuter bike, it may worth considering 9-speed. You'll save a little upfront cost, and 10-speed chains have a reputation of being less reliable due to their narrow width. I'll go look for a relevant Zinn column if anyone's interested in further reading.
 

sobriquet

Senior member
Sep 10, 2002
912
0
0
Originally posted by: spacejamz
just out of curiosity, from low to high, what are the different Shimano lines? is it 105, Tiagra, Ultegra, Dura ace?

For road components: Sora, Tiagra, 105, Ultegra, Dura-Ace

Just to throw my 2 cents in: I recently built up a new commuter bike, but I put my priority on durability and dependability over sheer speed. I've got a steel frameset (Surly Cross-Check), bar end shifters, a mountain-gearing crankset (my big ring is 46 teeth)*, and 35 mm tires. Sure, the bike is slower than my old road bike by a consistent 2 mph or so. But man, when I'm in the middle of my 20 mile commute, I feel so much more confident in my components and just in the overall ride stability of the bike. Because if anything breaks, it's gonna be a long time for anyone to come pick me up.

*I don't mean to say that a smaller gearing is more stable or dependable, just that it's a hell of a nice thing to have when I'm carrying loaded panniers up a hill on the return trip.
 

Jessica69

Senior member
Mar 11, 2008
501
0
0
Ultegra and 105 are the two gruppos I'd center my attention on....like sobriquet said, Sora, Tiagra, 105, Ultegra, DA is the lineup in order, bottom to top.

But with Shimano's near constant upgrading of DA componentry, like every year, the "old" DA tech trickles down to Ultegra, 105, etc., so consequently within 2-3 years, Ultegra and 105 are what the gruppo above them were before that. That is, take today's stuff.....2008 gruppos. 105 this year is just about what 2005-6 Ultegra stuff was.....same for Ultegra, for the most part. But Ultegra will never get some of the DA-specific stuff Shimano takes pleasure in creating....like the crank arms and shifter design.

About gears....the speeds that are referred to are the rear cassette gear count, so you have 10 spc, 9 spd, 8 spd....all which are simply a count of the individual gears on the rear cassette. The crank on the front is simply referred to as a double or triple.....and of course, there are the single speed cranks....but they're for another day's discussion.

I've used Ultegra and 105 extensively over the years and have come to my own preferences (and this is just my take on things).......I really prefer Ultegra shifters over 105. The Ultegras just feel, look, and act just a bit better than 105...shorter shift movements, nicer builds, etc.

Between 105 and Ultegra other components.....cassettes, who cares, they all work. Ult. look better sometimes, heck....DA looks better than both the others but the cost is whack!

Hubs...Ultegra's bearings are slightly better sealed than 105, but there are other hubsets worth considering outside Shimano's stuff....like the entry level Mavic Ksyrium wheelsets or Ritchey WCS or Bontrager Race Lites, or others.

Cranks....tossup...price difference between 105 and Ultegra is usually so much that it's cost senseless to get the Ultegra cranks, unless you must have a matching gruppo. The difference in weight, construction, etc., isn't that much.

Derailleurs....front....who cares. They all do their job, just make sure you get a ft. der. that matches the number of chainrings on your crank....that does matter. (This is a plcae you can pick up a DA der. for cheap, esp. off ebay. Then you, too, can brag that you have some DA shit on your bike. LOL!) Rear der.......105 is fine, Ultegra is, again, made just a little nicer, better bearings in the pivot points of the der, and the shift and idler wheels have better sealed bearings, at least in one of the wheels, than 105. Again, sometimes you can pick up a DA rear der. for not too much.....and it's so chic to have one.

Where to buy? Here are some places I've purchased from over the years, and all are quite reputable.....Jenson consistently has sales if you have time to wait and watch for parts. Icycles has a lot of NOS stuff, esp. if you're looking for older 8spd stuff. Loose Screws (used to be The Third Hand) has tons of hard-to-find small parts and tools. Great place.


Cambria Bike (I love this place!)


Jenson USA


Colorado Cyclist


IcyclesUSA


Price Point


Loose Screws/The Third Hand



I'd guess you already know about Nashbar and Performance Bikes.....both can be alright, but mostly their prices are trumped by the places above.
 

arrfep

Platinum Member
Sep 7, 2006
2,314
16
81
Originally posted by: sobriquet
Originally posted by: spacejamz
just out of curiosity, from low to high, what are the different Shimano lines? is it 105, Tiagra, Ultegra, Dura ace?

For road components: Sora, Tiagra, 105, Ultegra, Dura-Ace

Just to throw my 2 cents in: I recently built up a new commuter bike, but I put my priority on durability and dependability over sheer speed. I've got a steel frameset (Surly Cross-Check), bar end shifters, a mountain-gearing crankset (my big ring is 46 teeth)*, and 35 mm tires. Sure, the bike is slower than my old road bike by a consistent 2 mph or so. But man, when I'm in the middle of my 20 mile commute, I feel so much more confident in my components and just in the overall ride stability of the bike. Because if anything breaks, it's gonna be a long time for anyone to come pick me up.

*I don't mean to say that a smaller gearing is more stable or dependable, just that it's a hell of a nice thing to have when I'm carrying loaded panniers up a hill on the return trip.


Seconded. I would go with bar end shifters. Combining bar-end shifters with regular brake levers might be a little heavier than brifters, but the weight difference is negligible. More importantly, by going this route you can save probably $100 and still get the same level of functionality, with quite likely a more bombproof setup.
 

Cdubneeddeal

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2003
7,473
3
81
Originally posted by: arrfep
Originally posted by: sobriquet
Originally posted by: spacejamz
just out of curiosity, from low to high, what are the different Shimano lines? is it 105, Tiagra, Ultegra, Dura ace?

For road components: Sora, Tiagra, 105, Ultegra, Dura-Ace

Just to throw my 2 cents in: I recently built up a new commuter bike, but I put my priority on durability and dependability over sheer speed. I've got a steel frameset (Surly Cross-Check), bar end shifters, a mountain-gearing crankset (my big ring is 46 teeth)*, and 35 mm tires. Sure, the bike is slower than my old road bike by a consistent 2 mph or so. But man, when I'm in the middle of my 20 mile commute, I feel so much more confident in my components and just in the overall ride stability of the bike. Because if anything breaks, it's gonna be a long time for anyone to come pick me up.

*I don't mean to say that a smaller gearing is more stable or dependable, just that it's a hell of a nice thing to have when I'm carrying loaded panniers up a hill on the return trip.


Seconded. I would go with bar end shifters. Combining bar-end shifters with regular brake levers might be a little heavier than brifters, but the weight difference is negligible. More importantly, by going this route you can save probably $100 and still get the same level of functionality, with quite likely a more bombproof setup.

You know, I thought about bar end shifters but not too sure about the whole deal with them sticking out of the bar like that. Granted, the savings are huge compared to that of the STI's. I actually did a search and found these shifter mounts for drop bars. So approximately $60 for the thumbies and $60 for the shifters which is about a $100 savings over STI's give or take a little bit.
 

arrfep

Platinum Member
Sep 7, 2006
2,314
16
81
Originally posted by: Cdubneeddeal
Originally posted by: arrfep



Seconded. I would go with bar end shifters. Combining bar-end shifters with regular brake levers might be a little heavier than brifters, but the weight difference is negligible. More importantly, by going this route you can save probably $100 and still get the same level of functionality, with quite likely a more bombproof setup.

You know, I thought about bar end shifters but not too sure about the whole deal with them sticking out of the bar like that. Granted, the savings are huge compared to that of the STI's. I actually did a search and found these shifter mounts for drop bars. So approximately $60 for the thumbies and $60 for the shifters which is about a $100 savings over STI's give or take a little bit.

It's a valid and common concern, and before using them I was concerned about them, both form and function wise. However, they are often the choice of touring cyclists, who need parts to be the epitome of durability and function. I used them on my coast-to-coast ride and honestly did not have one single shifting issue. I used them in both friction and indexing modes, and after a few uses it becomes second nature to drop your hand and shift with either the palm of your hand or your pinkie. I highly recommend them.
 

Cdubneeddeal

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2003
7,473
3
81
Originally posted by: arrfep
Originally posted by: Cdubneeddeal


You know, I thought about bar end shifters but not too sure about the whole deal with them sticking out of the bar like that. Granted, the savings are huge compared to that of the STI's. I actually did a search and found these shifter mounts for drop bars. So approximately $60 for the thumbies and $60 for the shifters which is about a $100 savings over STI's give or take a little bit.

It's a valid and common concern, and before using them I was concerned about them, both form and function wise. However, they are often the choice of touring cyclists, who need parts to be the epitome of durability and function. I used them on my coast-to-coast ride and honestly did not have one single shifting issue. I used them in both friction and indexing modes, and after a few uses it becomes second nature to drop your hand and shift with either the palm of your hand or your pinkie. I highly recommend them.

Thanks for the advice. I think I'll go with the bar ends over the STI's. Almost $200 is way out of my league for shifters. I did some digging up on several components and for the brake levers I'll get the Tektro 200A (I believe is the model number). They're cheap and as far as I can tell from other reviews is they're solid and comfortable. So basically $63 for the shifters, and around $30 for the brake levers. Quite a huge savings.

As an update, this is what I've purchased so far.
Shimano 105 double 9sp cranks
Shimano BB
Sram PG-950 cassette - seemed to get good reviews as well.

Brakes I think I'll get Tektro as well since they're cheap and as far as I can tell, are good. For the front and rear derauilers I think I'll get the 08 lineup of Ultegra's in Ice Grey. More expensive but I think they'll match my bike and component set well. Haven't decided on wheels, seat post, stem, or handlebars. The chain will be a 105 as well.

Any advice on wheels? I was looking at either Alex R500's or XRP's. Do the hubs come with the freewheels?
 

Dirigible

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2006
5,960
30
91
Originally posted by: Cdubneeddeal
Originally posted by: arrfep
Originally posted by: Cdubneeddeal


You know, I thought about bar end shifters but not too sure about the whole deal with them sticking out of the bar like that. Granted, the savings are huge compared to that of the STI's. I actually did a search and found these shifter mounts for drop bars. So approximately $60 for the thumbies and $60 for the shifters which is about a $100 savings over STI's give or take a little bit.

It's a valid and common concern, and before using them I was concerned about them, both form and function wise. However, they are often the choice of touring cyclists, who need parts to be the epitome of durability and function. I used them on my coast-to-coast ride and honestly did not have one single shifting issue. I used them in both friction and indexing modes, and after a few uses it becomes second nature to drop your hand and shift with either the palm of your hand or your pinkie. I highly recommend them.

Thanks for the advice. I think I'll go with the bar ends over the STI's. Almost $200 is way out of my league for shifters. I did some digging up on several components and for the brake levers I'll get the Tektro 200A (I believe is the model number). They're cheap and as far as I can tell from other reviews is they're solid and comfortable. So basically $63 for the shifters, and around $30 for the brake levers. Quite a huge savings.

As an update, this is what I've purchased so far.
Shimano 105 double 9sp cranks
Shimano BB
Sram PG-950 cassette - seemed to get good reviews as well.

Brakes I think I'll get Tektro as well since they're cheap and as far as I can tell, are good. For the front and rear derauilers I think I'll get the 08 lineup of Ultegra's in Ice Grey. More expensive but I think they'll match my bike and component set well. Haven't decided on wheels, seat post, stem, or handlebars. The chain will be a 105 as well.

Any advice on wheels? I was looking at either Alex R500's or XRP's. Do the hubs come with the freewheels?

Personally, I really like the shift/brake combos, but if budget's an issue the bar end shifters will work fine.

Wheels: The rear hub will come with the freehub. Putting money in wheels can make a big difference in how your bike rides. You can really feel the difference between light wheels and heavy wheels. You can also get into big money ($1k or more just for wheels) really quickly. As this is a commuter and riding-for-fun bike, I wouldn't worry too much about getting lightweight or fancy wheels. Unfortunately, I don't know much about road wheels and have no knowledge of the wheels you mention.
 

Cdubneeddeal

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2003
7,473
3
81
Felt like I should post a quick update. The KHS frame I purchased was a 58cm instead of a 56cm which I needed - so I returned it. After many hours of extensive shopping for a frame and fork, I ended up squashing that idea and instead purchased a complete bike from bikesdirect (Through eBay). Bike arrived fine however the box was damaged in some spots but no scratches on the bike. After a while of tuning the derailers, I took it out on it's maiden voyage this evening. Road like a champ. Like you were saying Dirigible, the STI's are very convenient.

Anyway, I bought a Windsor Wellington 3.0 for about $300 shipped. Seemed like a great deal and after the ride I'm sure I got a great deal. I'll probably change out the handlebar in the future as I don't like the short drop.

Text
 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
30,699
1
0
Originally posted by: Cdubneeddeal
Felt like I should post a quick update. The KHS frame I purchased was a 58cm instead of a 56cm which I needed - so I returned it. After many hours of extensive shopping for a frame and fork, I ended up squashing that idea and instead purchased a complete bike from bikesdirect (Through eBay). Bike arrived fine however the box was damaged in some spots but no scratches on the bike. After a while of tuning the derailers, I took it out on it's maiden voyage this evening. Road like a champ. Like you were saying Dirigible, the STI's are very convenient.

Anyway, I bought a Windsor Wellington 3.0 for about $300 shipped. Seemed like a great deal and after the ride I'm sure I got a great deal. I'll probably change out the handlebar in the future as I don't like the short drop.

Text


Check to be certain that your stem's MAX line is safely out of sight in the fork. That stem either has a long quill (tube which inserts into the fork) or it's above MAX.
 

Cdubneeddeal

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2003
7,473
3
81
Originally posted by: mechBgon


Check to be certain that your stem's MAX line is safely out of sight in the fork. That stem either has a long quill (tube which inserts into the fork) or it's above MAX.

Here's some pics of the stem. I'm not seeing a MAX line, just a MIN text.

Text
Text
 
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