Robertson Screws

[Howard]

Why can't everything just be hex...

Yep. All you'd need is a ball-end hex key set.

Unless you meant (non-socket) hex cap, in which case I'd say you're not seeing the whole picture.

 

[Ticky]

Yep. All you'd need is a ball-end hex key set.

Unless you meant (non-socket) hex cap, in which case I'd say you're not seeing the whole picture.

No, the first one. Mmmm, Bondhus...

 

[CZroe]

Yep. All you'd need is a ball-end hex key set.

Unless you meant (non-socket) hex cap, in which case I'd say you're not seeing the whole picture.

From my experience working with a motorcycle: If only this were true. *grumble grumble*

I need standard and impact extra-long hex sockets for reach and crazy pipe setups for leverage on reversed L-shaped hex key wrenches all the time. Even if you never had to use a torque wrench when tightening them back down, try getting the fork drain bolt out of a Ninja 250R fork without a workbench vise and leverage or an impact wrench with adapters. I'm lucky I didn't damage the threads on my axle bolt when I did it without those. I had to use the tip of it to keep the fork from turning as I levered with a pipe and backwards L-wrench (axle pulled out just enough to allow access).

I don't even have a garage, so the workbench route wasn't an option. Now I use a 12v impact wrench powered off the bike's battery with the extended impact socket adapters. Works great for stuck brake rotor bolts too (damned red Loctite).

Even with the backwards L-wrench and a perfectly-shaped oval-shaped pipe that let me loosen my caliper bolts from an angle without removing the exhaust I ended up denting the exhaust on the underside. Now I use an extended T-handle wrench with the socket adapters. The handle slides to the opposite side if I get too close to the exhaust. Some people don't have this problem depending on their caliper's position (chain slack adjustment moves the wheel and caliper forward and back).

Edit: Oh yeah! And I have *NEVER* seen a screw with a hex head (only bolts). I wonder: why?

 

[Howard]

Edit: Oh yeah! And I have *NEVER* seen a screw with a hex head (only bolts). I wonder: why?

Button head socket cap screw

 

[CZroe]

Button head socket cap screw

https://www.google.com/search?site=...mg.PuiQMLsQbcE&q=Button head socket cap screw

Paged down and down and down...
...every one for several pages is a BOLT (not a "screw").

 

[Howard]

https://www.google.com/search?site=...mg.PuiQMLsQbcE&q=Button head socket cap screw

Paged down and down and down...
...every one for several pages is a BOLT (not a "screw").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw#Differentiation_between_bolt_and_screw

no wastey me timey

 

[eldorado99]

Everyone posting in this thread is disappointing.

 

[CZroe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw#Differentiation_between_bolt_and_screw

no wastey me timey

If you didn't understand that I was saying you can't just get "button head socket cap screws" for applications that are undeniably screws (drywall, wood, self-tapping, etc), then I'm glad I must assert my superior comprehension skills and lord them over you. It's clear by your definition that ANY bolt can be a screw and, thus, you ignored my "only bolts" distinguishing factor. I was only that I had never seen button head socket cap screws that would not also be used as bolts. I could not use the ones as shown for building wooden shelves without counter-sinking nuts and drilling pilot holes, which would make them screws used as bolts by any definition.

In your defense, after scrolling down more and more and more I did finally see a tapered button head socket cap screw (implies it doesn't require a tapped/threaded hole/anchor).

 

[Howard]

If you didn't understand that I was saying you can't just get "button head socket cap screws" for applications that are undeniably screws (drywall, wood, self-tapping, etc), then I'm glad I must assert my superior comprehension skills and lord them over you. It's clear by your definition that ANY bolt can be a screw and, thus, you ignored my "only bolts" distinguishing factor. I was only that I had never seen button head socket cap screws that would not also be used as bolts. I could not use the ones as shown for building wooden shelves without counter-sinking nuts and drilling pilot holes, which would make them screws used as bolts by any definition.

In your defense, after scrolling down more and more and more I did finally see a tapered button head socket cap screw (implies it doesn't require a tapped/threaded hole/anchor).

Why would I assume that when you say "screw" that you must be talking about only self-tapping screws? I still don't understand the point you're trying to make, but a counter to your argument about building a wood shelf is that you can simply use a threaded insert like a T-nut, hurricane nut, or helicoil (whatever). Bam - no nut needed.

Uh, if it helps, I just thought you were ignorant of the fact that the definitions of bolt and screw overlap significantly.

Anyway, they do exist. Relax. Admittedly not button head though.

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...size-8-1-hex-socket-head-black-ox-wax-finish/

Here are some button head. How hard did you actually look?

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/638342469/Button_head_wood_screw_6x16.html

 

[Humpy]

I've used plenty of allen head wood screws. I'm sure something about it excludes it from whatever it is that is going on in this thread though.

 

[CZroe]

Why would I assume that when you say "screw" that you must be talking about only self-tapping screws?

*facepalm*

Because I said I could only find bolts. IOW, I could only find the ones suitable for bolts and not suitable for doing all other types of screwing that are undeniably distinct from being a bolt. Wood or drywall or self-tapping button head hex screws are simply rarely seen and that was what I was wondering about. Pointing out that bolts are screws when I acknowledged the existing bolts does nothing to address the curiously unavailable product.

 

[Humpy]

Edit: Oh yeah! And I have *NEVER* seen a screw with a hex head (only bolts). I wonder: why?

So, how come you have never seen one?

 

[CZroe]

So, how come you have never seen one?

I dunno. That's why I wondered. What makes the socket/head type unsuitable or unpopular for wood,* drywall,* or self-tapping* screws?

*thanks for making me be NEEDLESSLY SPECIFIC, Howard.

 

[Howard]

I dunno. That's why I wondered. What makes the socket/head type unsuitable or unpopular for wood,* drywall,* or self-tapping* screws?

*thanks for making me be NEEDLESSLY SPECIFIC, Howard.

You're being specific in the worst way. You're providing constraints without also divulging information about those constraints. On top of that, you seem to be getting quite agitated that we're not on the same wavelength. Forsooth, wouldst thy breakfast cereal be grievously besmirched with the waste of another?

In any case, I would guess that a Phillips or flat head is cheaper to produce than a socket hex head. Or maybe it's a catch-22 situation with pricing and availability of power bits.

 

[Humpy]

Allen head screws and bolts suck in general because they do not provide for a tapered interface between the screw head and the driver bit. It takes longer to insert the driver bit or wrench and you can't push harder on the bit and get it to engage better like with a philips or square drive. Also they rely completely on a small surface area of material that is easily stripped away, unlike torx or similar. An allen heads shape is already nearly round to begin with.

I use allen head wood screws in furniture and cabinetry when I make something that may need to be occasionally disassembled, like a bed frame or furniture assembled inside a closet. They look pretty nice, almost everyone has the wrench, and they are a little easier to tighten for the typical homeowner.

 

[Howard]

Allen head screws and bolts suck in general because they do not provide for a tapered interface between the screw head and the driver bit. It takes longer to insert the driver bit or wrench and you can't push harder on the bit and get it to engage better like with a philips or square drive. Also they rely completely on a small surface area of material that is easily stripped away, unlike torx or similar. An allen heads shape is already nearly round to begin with.

I use allen head wood screws in furniture and cabinetry when I make something that may need to be occasionally disassembled, like a bed frame or furniture assembled inside a closet. They look pretty nice, almost everyone has the wrench, and they are a little easier to tighten for the typical homeowner.

I guess that's shitty fasteners for you. I've never stripped a SHCS (that wasn't seized) as long as I was using the right bit.

Ball-end hex keys aid insertion but even straight keys should be pretty easy to use. There's no need to "push harder" because a SHCS offers much more torque capacity than an equivalent Phillips screw without needing to push. I'll give you Torx having better torque than socket hex but I've stripped Torx screws so they're no panacea either.

 

[Ticky]

I've actually twisted the head off a cap screw... shank failed before the hex drive. Stuck is stuck sometimes.

 

[CZroe]

I've actually twisted the head off a cap screw... shank failed before the hex drive. Stuck is stuck sometimes.

Happens on even the tiniest screws sometimes: I recall a laptop I took apart in 2003/4 to fix the power connector for a customer. Should've been an easy fix except that one of four screws holding the heatsink on had the head twist right off with near zero effort (LESS torque than it took to remove the other three). Ended up being a nightmare with the upset customer over something I could not have anticipated (not easy to get parts like that then). I remember resorting to removing two of the four posts so that it could be secured diagonally (would pitch to the corner screw if all three remaining posts were used).

What? Am I supposed to heat cycle and use penetrating oil on a screw before I even try to turn it?! I've seriously considered using a soldering iron and an ice cold screwdriver on simple jobs like that just to make sure it doesn't happen again.

 

[CZroe]

You're being specific in the worst way. You're providing constraints without also divulging information about those constraints. On top of that, you seem to be getting quite agitated that we're not on the same wavelength. Forsooth, wouldst thy breakfast cereal be grievously besmirched with the waste of another?

In any case, I would guess that a Phillips or flat head is cheaper to produce than a socket hex head. Or maybe it's a catch-22 situation with pricing and availability of power bits.

My agitation was clearly facetious as was my deliberately wordy defense. Yet another example of my superior comprehension skills. Do you want another example? Fine. When you asked how hard I had looked, I had already explained exactly as hard as I had looked: Google image search, page down, page down, page down, ... until I finally saw one (every bit as elusive as I had described/expected). Now I will mock you in my dreams. Goodnight, sir!

 

[phucheneh]

My agitation was clearly facetious as was my deliberately wordy defense. Yet another example of my superior comprehension skills. Do you want another example? Fine. When you asked how hard I had looked, I had already explained exactly as hard as I had looked: Google image search, page down, page down, page down, ... until I finally saw one (every bit as elusive as I had described/expected). Now I will mock you in my dreams. Goodnight, sir!

What the hell are you on about?

Are you trying to argue that lag bolts and hex head self-tapping screws don't exist? No matter what point you're attemping to make, you fail. The former 'bolt' has course threads for driving into wood. The latter can be had with finer machine threads.

Or are you talking about internal/female hex fasteners, which are also observable in any variety of threaded application?

Or are you just asking why external hex heads aren't used as drywall or wood screws (as in, things where you would want a flush head)?

Who could know.

One thing possibly worth pointing out is why lags and similar aren't used in more applications where it doesn't matter if the head portrudes: they need a washer to not bite into the surface. And washers aren't made into the head like on many modern fasteners found on cars and other various kinds of machinery (more costly to make). Lack of a washer also makes it harder to drive lots of them in quickly, and seperate washers will fall off and otherwise be fumbled around while doing such.

 

[shortylickens]

Wow, only on Anandtech would a thread about screws degenerate to this shit.

Congrats boys. You must be so proud.

 

[sjwaste]

Wow, only on Anandtech would a thread about screws degenerate to this shit.

Congrats boys. You must be so proud.

In fairness, that extends to the whole internet. If this were reddit, we'd be down the line on bad puns by now. 500 posts in, someone would also tell you that there's a very specific subreddit for this topic /r/screws, which at least a dozen people would say is a risky click.

And that's before the name calling.

 

[CZroe]

I've used plenty of allen head wood screws. I'm sure something about it excludes it from whatever it is that is going on in this thread though.

Yeah: General availability.

It's uncommon and something you never see, which was the only point. Instead we had to go on about bolt vs. screw when it was clear that we weren't talking about the application of what was generally available.

What the hell are you on about?

Are you trying to argue that lag bolts and hex head self-tapping screws don't exist? No matter what point you're attemping to make, you fail. The former 'bolt' has course threads for driving into wood. The latter can be had with finer machine threads.

No. I'm saying that you don't see hex socket cap screws and bits for other purposes, like construction, so they can't "all" be hex like some of us were pining for.

Or are you talking about internal/female hex fasteners, which are also observable in any variety of threaded application?

Or are you just asking why external hex heads aren't used as drywall or wood screws (as in, things where you would want a flush head)?

I'm asking why you never see them for these other purposes. You can't go to the hardware store and come home with them for your construction project of choice. You simply never see them used for applications that aren't already threaded or tapped, which makes them uncommon in construction. Regardless of the head, I've never seen a drill bit that could drive a hex screw, for example. The only ones I've ever seen with tapered tips were headless set screws where the taper did not come to a point and was not for self-tapping.

Who could know.

Anyone who could follow a quote tree:

Why can't everything just be hex...

I was just agreeing with the sentiment and bemoaning the obvious lack of hex screw applications and tools. How it could not be obvious to everyone who's ever looked in a hardware aisle is confusing to me. There are plenty of hex screws/bolts but only for threaded applications. There are plenty of Torx/star "screws" for both threaded and non-threaded applications. Hell, the packs of them my mother buys for her wood construction projects come with the drill bit.

One thing possibly worth pointing out is why lags and similar aren't used in more applications where it doesn't matter if the head portrudes: they need a washer to not bite into the surface. And washers aren't made into the head like on many modern fasteners found on cars and other various kinds of machinery (more costly to make). Lack of a washer also makes it harder to drive lots of them in quickly, and seperate washers will fall off and otherwise be fumbled around while doing such.

Yeah, but I was never really talking about the head. The only reason I continually said "button cap" was to demonstrate availability with Howard's own specific example to show how limited the applications were.

 

[actuarial]

Yep. All you'd need is a ball-end hex key set.

Unless you meant (non-socket) hex cap, in which case I'd say you're not seeing the whole picture.

But why is hex better than Robertson? I would far prefer everything be Robertson.

 

[Howard]

But why is hex better than Robertson? I would far prefer everything be Robertson.

4 angles of access vs 6. If the application allows for sockets, it doesn't matter since most socket wrenches are 60- or 72- teeth (as little as 5 degrees of rotation required) but if not, space may be limited.