Rocket scientist harassed over shirt

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Nov 25, 2013
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There is a difference in voicing your opinion and retaliating.

Scorning and embarrassing someone is not offering a dissenting opinion, that is retaliation




See above.

Maybe my wording was off in my previous post?

One does not have the right to scorn, embarrass, retaliate because their feelings were hurt.


Really, stand up comedy. I think you might have a calling.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,722
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I think the shirt was inappropriate for a televised airing and not a very smart decision on his part, although his cultural background is going to be different from what I'm used to.

Was it also sexist? There are arguments that can be made about gender sensitivity and how this reflects on greater social issues. I don't think there's anything wrong with making these arguments, and I'd probably agree with at least some of these points on some level. But I think that some people blew this situation way out of proportion by saying that the shirt was an example of casual sexism in STEM that's setting back women's rights by decades, or is scaring off women from these careers. These statements are really presumptuous and accusatory, and are frequently delivered with a lot of anger. And it's not something that comes primarily from women, plenty of men have as well. A few people actually in STEM fields, but mostly those who are not.

What bothers me is no one really seems interested in how his coworkers actually feel about this, either in asking them or just plain bringing it up. There's an assumption that they hate the atmosphere that the scientist is creating but are too cowed and oppressed to say anything about it. But this is something I feel needs to be a bigger component of social activism: encouraging people to (calmly, politely, and with empathy) voice concerns directly to the people who are offending them. Instead of acting with passive aggression, which often boils over to the media picking it up and pushing it on the court of public opinion. A court that often seems to care more about gaining more lines on its oppression portfolio than actually asserting positive change.

When people hate themselves, and that's all of us, anything and everything can be an issue. Hating yourself unconsciously, is like having a sore toe you stick out in the middle of the aisle, unconsciously, but motivated by the intention that you will have a chance to discharge on somebody who steps on it. We aren't just easily offended, we are hopping to be. We lost our mental health as children in some traumatic event(s) and have a need to experience over and over those same feelings, but without the conscious awareness of how we got to feel that way. We want to feel the rage of being put down, but we don't want to remember that we bought in to feeling the words were correct. We are very angry that we were made to hate ourselves, and we love the anger, but we don't want to know that we also bought the lie that we are worthless. We walk around looking to be disrespected so we can fight the current source, but we never want to remember it in the original.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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Hush you. We're outraged!
lol That is America - outraged over first world problems. Now apparently it is Europe as well.

Just as well. It's a hell of a lot easier to drag them back to our level than for us to land something on a comet.

One doesn't really excuse the other.

If I do a bunch of charity work in a "Bitches be trippin'" T-shirt, does it make my shirt any less offensive?
It SHOULD, yes. Outraging over someone's choice of clothing to the point of ignoring their work is the epitome of shallow political correctness.

wait..I want to make sure i got this right.

Feminist are upset about what the guy wore? They are calling and harassing him? read even a few threats on his life.

so ..he asked for the harassment based on what he wore then eh?


for the record the guy wore the shirt because a FEMALE friend of his made it for him. though..i do think it was a bad idea.
Evidently.

I literally cannot imagine the mind of someone who can take such an amazing accomplishment for mankind and focus on a pretty inoffensive shirt. As someone pointed out not long ago, these are the women who bitch about too few women in science as they pursue their women's studies degrees.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I think the real issue here is that people think the shirt looks good.

I thought graphic print shirts went out of style in the late 90's.
That is incorrect because graphic print shirts were never in style. However, dude is a top level rocket scientist, a 0.000001% level brain. That does not come with a dress code.

You don't know because you are an idiot.
Um, no. He has repeatedly demonstrated that he is anything but an idiot. He simply has a different opinion that you and I. Insisting that others are not entitled to differing opinions is neither better nor worse than insisting that others are not entitled to wear clothing you don't think they should wear.

I would not have apologized.

Screw em, it was his day.
Yup. Proper answer would have been "Oh, my shirt offends you? Be sure and write that down, because as soon as you accomplish literally one single thing of significance I'm going to want to hear your opinion."
 

MrPickins

Diamond Member
May 24, 2003
9,022
600
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It SHOULD, yes. Outraging over someone's choice of clothing to the point of ignoring their work is the epitome of shallow political correctness.

We'll have to disagree on that.

Just because a person does good things doesn't mean they're immune from criticism for the bad/dumb things they do.

Just IMO, of course.


That is incorrect because graphic print shirts were never in style.

I wish someone would have let me know that in 1998. I'd have way fewer embarrassing pictures of me in giant dragon or flame prints

However, dude is a top level rocket scientist, a 0.000001% level brain. That does not come with a dress code.

 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
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You'd be surprised what high level rocket scientist types like to wear.

I had one finally give my tacky Panama Jack type of cowboyish cruise ship hat with all the pins on it when I left it at his house awhile on accident at a party, and said "I hope you don't mind I wore it a bit" and I was "not at all"

Felt like a compliment.

A lot of them like Hawaiian shirts etc, it's kinda amusing and we actually had some printed out and handed out one time based on departments in different colors.

I digress, NM
 
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Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
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He's a rocket scientist. He doesn't work with any women. Which of his coworkers was offended?

Okay, first of all, he's not a "rocket scientist" which is a vague and imprecise term implying something about aerospace engineering. He's the lead project scientist, which means his involvement probably has less to do with the engineering behind the probe and more to do with what sort of scientific data collection and analysis will be collected with it there. In my experience (I work with a NASA contractor), the space agency will have a scientist who works with other scientists/a PI (principal investigator) external to the agency. So I kind of expect that Taylor has gotten a lot of credit that isn't that related to his actual role.

Second, at least one of the featured project members here is a woman: http://rosetta.jpl.nasa.gov/team-members (albeit, this is a NASA partner, not someone ESA).

Third, you can see female colleagues present in the videos with him.

Fourth, why would you think that there are no female engineers? News flash, they are. I know several. And he's going to have to work with people who aren't scientists or engineers. This might surprise you, but NASA for example has several women in high positions of management.

Fifth, I never said that any of his coworkers were offended. I said that IF they were offended it would be constructive for them to voice their concerns with him directly. Now I get that a lot of people will say that this could put them at risk of consequence in their job. If something like that actually happens then by all means, take the place to court and take it to the media.

If his coworkers were NOT offended by the shirt then that kind of says there wasn't a problem to begin with.
 
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MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
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Just an old T-Shirt I guess.



Have many more hanging about, but would be just spam.

 
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stlc8tr

Golden Member
Jan 5, 2011
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http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astr...sexism_when_a_shirt_is_more_than_a_shirt.html

Last week, the European Space Agency landed a space probe on a comet. It was big news—historic, even.

But another event caused a stir at the same time, tangentially related to the event. Matt Taylor, the Rosetta mission’s project scientist, went on the air to talk about the successful landing. However, his choice of attire was unfortunate.

He was wearing a bowling shirt covered in pinup-style drawings of scantily clad women.

This upset a lot of people. A lot. It was compounded by his extremely poorly thought-out description of the difficulty of the Rosetta mission: “She’s sexy, but I never said she was easy.”

Yikes. To be clear, I don’t think Taylor is a raging misogynist or anything like that; I think he was just clueless about how his words might sound and his shirt might be interpreted. We all live in an atmosphere steeped in sexism, and we hardly notice it; a fish doesn’t notice the water in which it swims. I’ve lived in that environment my whole life, and I was well into adulthood before I started becoming aware of it and figuring out how to counter it. I’m still learning.

Importantly, the next day, clearly upset he had caused such a fuss, Taylor apologized on air sincerely and graciously for his actions. For the most part, the people who were upset accepted his apology and moved on.
shirt The shirt.

Photo from the ESA news stream, via @RoseVeleth's Twitter feed

But it doesn’t end there. As you might expect, when people complained about the casual sexism of the shirt and the mission description, a frothing torrent of backlash misogyny swept over social media, another in a long line of demonstrations of Lewis’ law (“Comments on any article about feminism justify feminism.”)

There is much I could say here, but Dr24Hours wrote an excellent summary that aligns fairly well with my thinking. Please go read that right now.

But I have something to add.

If you think this is just women complaining, you’re wrong. Certainly many have, and rightly so. But the fact is, I’m writing about it. I can point you to many men, friends of mine, scientists and science communicators all, who have spoken up about it. It’s important that men speak up, and it’s important that we listen, too.

If you think this is just complaining from wannabes who can’t hold a candle to someone who just landed a probe on a comet, you’re wrong. Talk to my friend, the cosmologist Katie Mack. Or the planetary scientist Sarah Horst. Or geologist Mika McKinnon. Or astrophysicist Catherine Q.* Or planetary geologist Emily Lakdawalla. Or radio astronomer Nicole Gugliucci. Or professor and science communicator extraordinaire Pamela Gay. Or Carolyn Porco, who worked on the Voyager mission and is the leader of the Cassini imaging team, the space probe that’s been orbiting Saturn for over a decade now.

If you think this is just a bunch of prudes, you’re wrong. It’s not about the prurience. It’s about the atmosphere of denigration.

If you think it’s OK to use a misogynistic gender-charged word to insult and demean a woman because she used a generic nongender-charged insult about a man, then you’re really wrong (and that’s one representative tweet from many I saw just like it).

If you think this isn’t a big deal, well, by itself, it’s not a huge one. But it’s not by itself, is it? This event didn’t happen in a vacuum. It comes when there is still a tremendously leaky pipeline for women from undergraduate science classes to professional scientist. It comes when having a female name on a paper makes it less likely to get published, and cited less. It comes when there is still not even close to parity in hiring and retaining women in the sciences.

So yeah, it’s just a shirt.

And it’s just an ad.

It’s just a saying.

It’s just a TV show.

It’s just the Internet.

Yes, but you almost make as much as a man does.

It’s just a catcall.

It’s a compliment!

It’s just that boys will be boys.

It’s just that she’s a slut.

It’s just that your dress is too short.

It’s just that we want to know what you were wearing at the time, ma’am.

It’s just it’s just it’s just.

It’s just a death by a thousand cuts. No one cut does the deed. In the end, they all do.
 
Nov 25, 2013
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Garbage. "This guy wore a shirt with a naked lady on it so he's equivalent to a rapist." No wonder no one takes them seriously.

If that was what the article said, you would have a point. Since it doesn't (not even close), you don't.

Now, what was that about being taken seriously?
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,989
8,701
136

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,989
8,701
136
If that was what the article said, you would have a point. Since it doesn't (not even close), you don't.

Now, what was that about being taken seriously?

He wore a shirt.

He is not responsible for anyone else's actions.

He flies spaceships to comets, everyone else whines on the internet about trivial, inconsequential things.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,989
8,701
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Also.

If its OK to harass this guy for the images of the women on his shirt that would mean that those images of women are unacceptable.

Which would mean its equally valid to harass any women who would dress like that.

So how about we just don't harass anyone for how they dress? That would be a more comfortable world to live in. Yes?
 

MrPickins

Diamond Member
May 24, 2003
9,022
600
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Also.

If its OK to harass this guy for the images of the women on his shirt that would mean that those images of women are unacceptable.

Which would mean its equally valid to harass any women who would dress like that.

If the women dressed like that at the press conference, then yes, there would be much criticism.

At a strip club? Probably not; same as the shirt.


Context is very important here.
 

MrPickins

Diamond Member
May 24, 2003
9,022
600
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Basically this:

http://infactorium.com/2014/11/13/that-shirt/
I’m not going to condemn a man for owning an awful shirt with half-naked women on it. That’s his own business, and I couldn’t care less. But it shows a staggering lack of judgement, and callousness to what others might infer, to wear this shirt to work. At all. When grownups go to work, they should dress appropriately for work. And unless you work at a bowling alley/strip club, that shirt is almost certainly not appropriate. It is really not appropriate when you’re going to be on a worldwide live-stream meant to be dedicated to inspirational science and engineering.

Casually throwing around sexually charged language and imagery in a workplace that is not about sex is simply not appropriate behavior. For anyone. And yes, for some men this means losing a tiny measure of freedom. We lose the freedom to be horn-dog dipshits in the workplace, because we need the workplace to be a comfortable place for everyone. (And, while it seems far less common to me, yes, women are also not allowed to be horn-dog dipshits in the workplace.)
 

surfsatwerk

Lifer
Mar 6, 2008
10,110
5
81

However, I am also concerned by the calls I see for him to be fired. Unless he has a history of behaving this way in defiance of request and directive to change, then what he deserves is a reprimand, a dress code, and to hear from people he respects that this is unprofessional and undignified. The leap from “He wore an offensive shirt” to “he must be fired” is an escalation I can’t justify with the information I have.

I like this part too.
 
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