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vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,481
8,342
126
Given that these opinions seem to stem from religion, and as someone that used to be religious (a number of years ago), I wondered... why are they so hateful? I came to realize that the methodology between the Republican party and some religious institutions are a match made in Heaven (pun intended). Back when I was in church (late 90's, early 00's), there was this strong push for keeping the state "clean". I mean... you didn't want to end up like the heathen states of Sodom or Gomorrah, right? Even though there are plenty of religious messages about being loving and good regardless of the nature of the person, there's such a strong focus on the evils of the world... and how everything bad is a sign of "the end times". I can't tell you how many times I've been told that everything I see are signs of the end times, or how such-and-such is a sign of the beast, etc.

Ultimately, it seems to me like both the church and the Republican party have been drumming up supporters through vitriolic means, and part of me wonders if both do it because it's easier to keep supporters that are frothing at the mouth rather than those that smile. I'm pretty sure we know the latter does it on purpose, but I wonder if the church has fallen prey to it, or if it was more of an accident.

It's all about the grift and survival. Evangelical and GOP are aren't a venn diagram. They are just two circles on top of each other. Those two groups are symbiotic and require each other to survive. And together, they just grift the shit out everyone while not actually giving a shit about anyone except themselves.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
It's all about the grift and survival. Evangelical and GOP are aren't a venn diagram. They are just two circles on top of each other. Those two groups are symbiotic and require each other to survive. And together, they just grift the shit out everyone while not actually giving a shit about anyone except themselves.

Out of curiosity, do you draw a distinction between "religious" and "evangelical"? I guess I'm curious since my brother is still religious, yet (from my understanding) he votes Democrat simply because he doesn't agree with the staunchly anti-individual Republican view. (He grew up having plenty of friends that would have been considered outcasts, so I think that helped give him a stronger world view.)
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,481
8,342
126
Out of curiosity, do you draw a distinction between "religious" and "evangelical"? I guess I'm curious since my brother is still religious, yet (from my understanding) he votes Democrat simply because he doesn't agree with the staunchly anti-individual Republican view. (He grew up having plenty of friends that would have been considered outcasts, so I think that helped give him a stronger world view.)

Evangelical is a unique demographic and yes, typically treat them as two different groups. Evangelical is almost entirely white, politically motivated and in it for the money and power. The faith is just a cudgel.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,596
8,501
136
Evangelical is a unique demographic and yes, typically treat them as two different groups. Evangelical is almost entirely white, politically motivated and in it for the money and power. The faith is just a cudgel.

But what defines "Evangelical" in terms of theology and doctrine? I can't distinguish all these zillion Protestant sub-sects. They are worse than the far-left in that respect.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
59,179
13,749
136
Ultimately, it seems to me like both the church and the Republican party have been drumming up supporters through vitriolic means, and part of me wonders if both do it because it's easier to keep supporters that are frothing at the mouth rather than those that smile. I'm pretty sure we know the latter does it on purpose, but I wonder if the church has fallen prey to it, or if it was more of an accident.
They're pretty intertwined at this point, and have been for decades now, I think. More churches are about worshiping the church itself and maintaining the power structure than the belief system.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,481
8,342
126
But what defines "Evangelical" in terms of theology and doctrine? I can't distinguish all these zillion Protestant sub-sects. They are worse than the far-left in that respect.

I said it above, they are in it for the money and political power. It's not about the religion. The religion is a front. They are just part of the GOP base at this point.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
59,179
13,749
136
But what defines "Evangelical" in terms of theology and doctrine? I can't distinguish all these zillion Protestant sub-sects. They are worse than the far-left in that respect.
As someone who grew up more or less areligious, I still don't much understand the difference between all the various flavors. Makes it all the more ridiculous when they claim the Bible is the inerrant word of god, like, why can't y'all agree on it then?
 
Reactions: DarthKyrie

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,481
8,342
126
Basically if you have a "Faith Line" to call in and take a credit card number for using, you might be an evangelical.

It's not about spreading the word of god. It's about grifting people.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,481
8,342
126
As far the US goes, it's heavily concentrated in the south/bible belt, is hugely white in base and a lot of overlap with what is more commonly known as Baptist.

 

eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
9,768
4,957
136
Wonder if contraceptives will include day after pill? And if yes, what will be done with pharmacists that refuse to fill Rx because “religious reason”
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
70,151
28,787
136
As far the US goes, it's heavily concentrated in the south/bible belt, is hugely white in base and a lot of overlap with what is more commonly known as Baptist.

View attachment 64853
It's sad that the radical nut jobs took over the Southern Baptist Convention in the late 70s - early 80s. There was a window prior to that when the sect was much more open to enlightenment values.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,632
28,769
136
Wonder if contraceptives will include day after pill? And if yes, what will be done with pharmacists that refuse to fill Rx because “religious reason”
Do like all those red states. Turn them in via a bounty and sue the piss outta the store

195 Republicans vote against right to birth control

Republicans would have likely changed the definition of birth control just to outlaw it. Dems just cock blocked them. At a minimum that have a great talking point that happens to be true.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
59,179
13,749
136
Wonder if contraceptives will include day after pill? And if yes, what will be done with pharmacists that refuse to fill Rx because “religious reason”
Presumably they'll be allowed to do so, but may be required to direct the customer to another employee/manager on duty?

 

nOOky

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2004
3,000
2,012
136
Presumably they'll be allowed to do so, but may be required to direct the customer to another employee/manager on duty?


Fuck people like that. How does your observance of a religion have anything to do with selling items at a retail store? You're not participating in behavior against your beliefs, you're just doing a job. Fucking religious whackos.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,216
10,787
136
But what defines "Evangelical" in terms of theology and doctrine? I can't distinguish all these zillion Protestant sub-sects. They are worse than the far-left in that respect.
Flawless Bible doctrine is probably the most consistent through all of them. Also generally feel Revelation is the most important book of the Bible. The rapture is coming soon. And everyone we don't like is going to burn in hell.

Those are generally consistent through all of them.
 

Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
4,253
3,824
136
I guess Texas f*cked around and found out.. So will the rest of the red states. When red state people go to the doctor's office, and find themselves being treated by Jethro, that will be the complete find out to the f*ck around.


Article is behind a paywall, so I put the whole thing here.


As professionals flee antiabortion policies, red states face a brain drain

The policies of Texas Gov. Greg Abbott are driving professionals away from the state.

A few days ago, a university headhunter reached out to Elizabeth T. Jacobs, a professor of epidemiology at the University of Arizona, to gauge her interest in moving to a leading university in Texas.

Under normal circumstances and in professional terms, the opportunity would have seemed intriguing. “It was an attractive situation,” Jacobs told me. “It was at an institution I have a lot of respect for, and I would not have dismissed it out of hand.”

But the political environment in Texas is not normal, in Jacobs’ view. She informed the recruiter that “under the current state leadership I didn’t think my family would be safe in that state.”

As of tomorrow, I am on the open market.... I will not endanger my team.
— University of Utah neuroscientist Bryan William Jones, following Supreme Court abortion ruling
Jacobs had a lengthy list of concerns about policies being implemented by Texas’ Republican governor, Greg Abbott.


By executive order, Abbott prohibited local government entities, including school districts and public health agencies, from issuing mask mandates. He signed a bill allowing Texas residents to carry a gun without a permit.

Texas has what may be the most draconian antiabortion law in the country. Its notorious SB 8 in effect places a bounty on the heads of medical providers and others deemed to have aided and abetted an illegal abortion, allowing plaintiffs even from out of state to claim damages of more than $10,000 for violations.

The bounty provisions “are going to dissuade the most qualified professionals from accepting jobs in places where they could be prosecuted for saving the life of a pregnant person,” Jacobs says. “Over time, that degrades the entire medical apparatus.”

Jacobs depends on the drug methotrexate to treat her rheumatoid arthritis. But because the drug can also be used to induce abortions, pharmacists in Texas can refuse to dispense it. “I can’t imagine being cut off from a medication that my doctor prescribes to reduce my symptoms.”

Jacobs is also concerned about the environment in which her two teenage sons would grow up — one in which gun restrictions are being loosened even in the face of mass shootings, teachers aren’t free to teach the full pageant of American history, good and bad, and in which LGBTQ residents are targeted by official policies.

“I don’t know who they’re going to become or who they’re going to fall in love with,” she says. “But I don’t want to move to a state where their options are restricted.”

Jacobs’ concerns are not unique or even unusual among professional workers. Indeed, they’re spreading. Her July 16 tweet about her encounter with the recruiter has been retweeted 7,900 times and garnered 72,600 “likes” from Twitter users.

University faculty members in red states are publicly expressing concerns about the impact of exclusionary right-wing policies on their efforts to attract students and recruit qualified people to their institutions. Some have put out public feelers soliciting job offers from states with less-restrictive abortion laws.

“As of tomorrow, I am on the open market,” University of Utah neuroscientist Bryan William Jones tweeted June 24, the day the Supreme Court overturned Roe vs. Wade, the 1973 decision that established a constitutional right to abortion. Jones said he would be willing to bring his 12 lab members, of whom eight are women, with him. “I will not endanger my team,” he wrote.

Jones noted that the Supreme Court ruling, which came in a case titled Dobbs vs. Jackson Women’s Health Organization, automatically triggered a preexisting ban on abortion in Utah. A state judge later placed the trigger law temporarily on hold, but that has only heightened the uncertainty about abortion law in Utah.

The Dobbs decision cleared the way for total bans or severe restrictions on abortions in at least 25 states.

Whether or how deeply those restrictions will serve as a factor in job recruitment or university admissions is impossible to say just yet — the decision is not yet a month old and was handed down after the academic year ended in most higher- and secondary education systems.

Early indications, however, are that they may raise new obstacles to recruiting workers whose skills and qualifications allow them to choose from multiple job opportunities.

University recruiters expect the political implications of the Dobbs ruling to permeate their discussions with faculty candidates.

Quality of life is a major issue in recruitment discussions, says David Williamson Shaffer, an education professor at the University of Wisconsin who successfully hired a candidate last year who was also being wooed by Stanford and Harvard.

“We spent a lot of time discussing the quality of life here,” Shaffer told me. “As somebody who does recruiting, I have to look someone in the eye and tell them I think this would be a good place to come.”

Today, Shaffer says, “I’m not entirely sure I could do that with somebody who was of the age where they were thinking about having children.”

The Dobbs ruling triggered Wisconsin’s 173-year-old abortion ban, under which providing an abortion is a felony punishable by up to six years in prison and a fine of as much as $10,000. All Wisconsin clinics immediately suspended abortion services.

“I would have to be honest with someone even if they were past that stage of life, about what the consequences would be in terms of healthcare coverage,” Shaffer says. “It would absolutely come up in the discussion, and it would absolutely be a problem the next time I have to recruit someone.”

When a post soliciting applicants for director of information technology at the new Alice L. Walton School of Medicine appeared on Educause, a message site for university personnel, it drew numerous responses from professionals who said they would not consider taking a job in a state with antiabortion policies like those in Arkansas.

Arkansas bans all abortions with “very limited exceptions,” according to the Guttmacher Institute. Among other rules, the state restricts medication abortions — those not requiring surgery — through “unnecessary regulations,” including banning telehealth prescriptions or the mailing of pills.

Restrictions on reproductive health care threaten to undermine initiatives in some states to attract or keep their most promising students. That may be the case in Indiana, where the privately funded Lilly Endowment Community Scholarship Program provides four years of free tuition, fees and books for successful applicants to attend colleges and universities in the state.

But that hasn’t worked out for one woman I spoke with. She said she received her Lilly scholarship in 2012, works as a marketing professional and is engaged to a medical student who was a fellow Lilly scholar. (She spoke on the condition of anonymity to avoid political repercussions.)

Now they are living in a state that, in the post-Dobbs world, could force people into pregnancy and giving birth against their will. She’s worried about data showing that states with restricted abortion access, as Indiana legislators may try to enact during an upcoming special session, have worse maternal health outcomes than states allowing the full panoply of reproductive health care.

“If I miscarry, I don’t want to fear being accused of causing it,” she told me. “If, for a miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy, I need an abortion, I don’t want to fear delayed medical care because doctors are being intimidated out of their Hippocratic oaths by the state.”

She and her fiancé are hoping to move to Illinois next year, assuming he can secure a medical residency in that state, “due to safety concerns for me as someone who can get pregnant, and for my fiancé as a medical professional,” she told me.

High school students applying for college are deleting institutions in some states from their lists of desirable destinations.

“Many students are coming to our counselors with concerns about the college lists they’ve already built or want to reconsider,” says David Santos, chief executive of Prepory, a Florida college application coaching service with its largest clienteles in Florida, California, Texas and New Jersey.

Santos says that in every case female students are the ones initiating discussions with counselors about reproductive health laws, but female and male students are raising questions about the treatment of LGBTQ residents in certain states.

Conversations between Prepory counselors and their youthful clients suggest that “students will be more influenced by geography than they were before,” according to transcripts of comments from counselors. Santos expects this to be “a regular consideration for students for years to come.”

Workers, professionals and students may well find themselves confronting a shrinking portion of the U.S. where healthcare rights and other social rights are honored. Arizona, where Jacobs works now, is poised to implement a stringent “personhood” law that “classifies fetuses, embryos, and fertilized eggs as ‘people’ starting at the point of conception,” as it’s described by the Center for Reproductive Rights.

The law has been temporarily blocked by a federal court, but if permitted to go into effect, it could subject women to criminal prosecution for miscarriages and stillbirths, according to critics.

The political environment in her home state has led Jacobs to start looking for opportunities elsewhere. “I’ve said the situation I’m in now is like jumping from the frying pan into the fire,” she says. “I’m already in the frying pan, and I’m making plans to leave Arizona as soon as I can. I just know I don’t want to move to a state with similar draconian laws.”
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,632
28,769
136
Don't worry when they take over the white House again, they'll just change what the FDA has approved.

That’s why it need to be codified into law. As we learned from the ACA it won’t be so easy to have laws reversed.

I do worry about Republicans getting a toad as head of the FDA and changing the definition that way.

Maybe they can write laws requiring a majority of government scientists that way it won’t be easy to change
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,094
14,411
146
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