Based on my knowledge of history I'd have to conclude the answer is an obvious yes.
Do you feel mental illness is just inherent to humanity?
I don't disagree that it's indoctrination, but it's absurd to state there isn't a mental health component to this. Stable people don't get indoctrinated into a murder cult. There's a deep rooted sickness in our country, and guns are only a small part of that.I know this is the Roe V Wade thread. But we're here now discussing guns.
That said, this kid in Chicago planned this for weeks. He planned his escape route. He took women's clothing with him to make it easier to get out. I think it's unfair to mental health to say this is a mental health issue. This was planned and calculated. Just like the guy in Las Vegas. Just like many other incidents like this. It's months of planning, prep, ect.
We train young 18 year olds to go off and kill for our country. We have a not small part of our country indoctrinating and planting that same logic in vulnerable youths. Except instead of sending them to Afghanistan, they are rolling up and waging war on their own fellow citizens. The right has painted this as a war and needing soldiers.
This is not mental health. This is indoctrination. And it's deliberate.
Right, so it might be a great idea to crack that open a bit, and see what facets of human behavior lend themselves to generational trauma, institutional oppression, and maybe try to raise awareness and make changes in our society that actually interrupt these cycles. The LBGTQ movement has done wonders for a small subset of the oppressed, as did the civil rights movement and women's suffrage. No reason we can't dig deeper.Based on my knowledge of history I'd have to conclude the answer is an obvious yes.
I don't disagree that it's indoctrination, but it's absurd to state there isn't a mental health component to this. Stable people don't get indoctrinated into a murder cult. There's a deep rooted sickness in our country, and guns are only a small part of that.
Regarding the thread derail, apologies for my part in that. I'm not good at staying silent.
Alright, so why are those minds vulnerable? Education and strong mental health are immunizations for populists.There are vulnerable minds. That's how populists take over. They seize that opportunity. But what is happening here is a very clear link to right wing propaganda and hate. I think it's much more a messaging and access to social infrastructure issue than outright mental health. But that's my hill to die on.
We see partisan polarization by education so it's arguably true education turns people away from populism, at least in its current American form, but I'm not so sure about mental health or even how you would measure that.Alright, so why are those minds vulnerable? Education and strong mental health are immunizations for populists.
Baloney. Your bandaid does nothing. Gun control is possible, wishing hoping and praying for mental health is indicative of DENIAL. You are part of the problem.Ironic statement, given the blinders you have regarding your surety that America can institute effective gun control. I'm at least trying to provide another option to deal with the actual issue.
So that's a super good starting point then, universal education reform, emphasizing the autonomy of the education system to educate children. I'd also outright ban religious education and religious schools, but I doubt that would get past congress.We see partisan polarization by education so it's arguably true education turns people away from populism, at least in its current American form, but I'm not so sure about mental health or even how you would measure that.
Explain to me how you plan to enact gun control in the United States, in the next 10 years (I'll be generous).Gun control is possible
I'm pretty sure we are 1-2 SCOTUS terms from them ruling that any state with public schools must provide equivalent funding to any religious school that wants it. Not a joke.So that's a super good starting point then, universal education reform, emphasizing the autonomy of the education system to educate children. I'd also outright ban religious education and religious schools, but I doubt that would get past congress.
I agree. Probably need to start with breaking SCOTUS hegemony apart before you can ever make any positive change at this point.I'm pretty sure we are 1-2 SCOTUS terms from them ruling that any state with public schools must provide equivalent funding to any religious school that wants it. Not a joke.
Just like republicans will never vote for meaningful gun control. They'll never vote for meaningful mental health care, especially the type needed to preventass murders, either.So don't target the gun nutters first?
Yes, the tools make the situation worse. As I've yammered about many times though, true gun control beyond outlawing full automatics in the US has been a non-starter, thanks to Republicans/Fox. You can want something until you're blue in the face, that doesn't mean it'll happen.
Cool, good luck. Let us know if you can dislodge enough Republicans to get a 2/3rds majority, and we can solve all our problems in one fell sweep.
Interesting, I see the opposite as more probable to resolve than 2A, as none of those things requires tweaking or getting rid of a Constitutional amendment (at least not likely to).
If this same energy can be harnessed for the midterms there may still yet be trouble for Republicans.
FTFYrepublicans will never vote for anything meaningful.
Then we're lost on all topics of reform, doomed to throw rocks at each other until the climate apocalypse claims us all.Just like republicans will never vote for meaningful gun control. They'll never vote for meaningful mental health care, especially the type needed to preventass murders, either.
And, if I was correctly informed, had women burned at the stake! He referenced that guy 6 times in his ruling.Alito in the Roe ruling referenced a guy who used to convict people for witchcraft
I know this is the Roe V Wade thread. But we're here now discussing guns.
That said, this kid in Chicago planned this for weeks. He planned his escape route. He took women's clothing with him to make it easier to get out. I think it's unfair to mental health to say this is a mental health issue. This was planned and calculated. Just like the guy in Las Vegas. Just like many other incidents like this. It's months of planning, prep, ect.
We train young 18 year olds to go off and kill for our country. We have a not small part of our country indoctrinating and planting that same logic in vulnerable youths. Except instead of sending them to Afghanistan, they are rolling up and waging war on their own fellow citizens. The right has painted this as a war and needing soldiers.
This is not mental health. This is indoctrination. And it's deliberate.
Quoted so people can read it twice. I think a lot of times people see me advocating mental health care over gun control as a distraction from gun control itself. It's more that by approaching mental health, you correct an entire population of peoples rather than dealing with an isolated group within the population.
I'm open to realistic alternative suggestions.Anyone that keeps saying mental health with regards to spree killers knows that is a lie and are actively trying to prevent anything being done about it.
Case in point:
Oh, we see who you are. The fact that you are bringing this issue up in this thread further reveals who you are.
Here, you'll need this:
Arguing that the shooter had a "mental health problem" as the reason why he shot up innocent people when he outright planned out his killing spree is a pretty thin argument in my opinion. Psychologists have a standard for which generally accepted "mental health problems" are documented; it's called the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, or the DSM. I don't think you'll find an obvious line item in that manual for classifying the shooter. It's not readily apparent if being a cult member automatically qualifies you to have a mental disorder either.I don't disagree that it's indoctrination, but it's absurd to state there isn't a mental health component to this. Stable people don't get indoctrinated into a murder cult. There's a deep rooted sickness in our country, and guns are only a small part of that.
Regarding the thread derail, apologies for my part in that. I'm not good at staying silent.
Although the author’s focus is on public understanding and not on psychiatrists, there is still a need for the involvement of psychiatrists with adequate understanding of cults. For example, is there a common and appropriate diagnosis for cult followers? I had thought not. The closest that came to my mind was a classification in DSM-III (1980) called “Identity Disorder.” However, parallel with our decreased interest in cults, by DSM-IV (1994), it was replaced by the term “Identity Problem.” By DSM-5 (2013), that term was removed. Or, was it? The author points out that the DSM-5 classification of Dissociative Disorders: Not Otherwise Specified 300.15 (F44.89) fits. It is described as an “identity disturbance due to prolonged and intense coercive persuasion," and one of the examples is recruitment by cults. This view of coercive persuasion goes back to DSM-III-R in 1987, thereby overlapping with the changes in identity nomenclature considerations. Then again, if that Dissociative Disorder is also an "identity disturbance” akin to an identity disorder, why not have left in that DSM-III original nomenclature? Moreover, Not Otherwise Specified (NOS) has come to be viewed more controversially as a sort of waste basket when better clarity cannot be met. Is the dissociative process the key problem and/or is it someone’s identity change? I suppose one could conclude, as Shakespeare did in Romeo and Juliet, “a rose by any other name would smell as sweet," an identity disorder by any other name would harm as much.
Sounds like we need to do both, no?Providing mental health facilities and services only helps resolve the former, but does it not seem wise to deal with the problem at the source and go after the latter?