Ron Paul Schools Ben Bernanke Again

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
The money supply blah blah blah is all I hear. The money supply is up because banks need less reserves because the fed is buying bonds. The dollar is at a low because the US is borrowing money and the US government is at a record deficit.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Gimme a break. Paul has no formal training or education as an economist, while Bernanke is an MIT PhD economist who also did his undergraduate work at Harvard; he's plenty smart all on his own.

Paul believes in a small school of economic thought called Austrian economics. He believes in hard money like the gold standard. As a someone with a BA economics, I can tell you right off the bat that while Paul's understanding of economics is solid, his opinions on inflation are merely that; opinions, which are not widely accepted consensus in the least compared to neo-classical or Keynesian economics. Generally, economists are of the mind that inflation can be caused by an increase in the money supply, but that it is merely one of several factors leading to the inflation of a currency, with aggregate demand (or, more specifically, the demand for money) playing an important corollary role here.
 

Capitalizt

Banned
Nov 28, 2004
1,513
0
0
Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
while Paul's understanding of economics is solid, his opinions on inflation are merely that; opinions, which are not widely accepted consensus in the least compared to neo-classical or Keynesian economics. .

Keynesian economics is what got us in this $9 trillion mess in the first place. The dollar is n ow worth less than .04 compared to the dollar of 1913.

I'm willing to give Austrian economics a shot for a change..
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Originally posted by: Capitalizt
Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
while Paul's understanding of economics is solid, his opinions on inflation are merely that; opinions, which are not widely accepted consensus in the least compared to neo-classical or Keynesian economics. .

Keynesian economics is what got us in this $9 trillion mess in the first place. The dollar is n ow worth less than .04 compared to the dollar of 1913.

I'm willing to give Austrian economics a shot for a change..

Your methodology is flawed in the extreme. Look at per capita income today vs. 1913. Look at GDP growth and corporate growth via the Dow since 1913. Look at vastly improved equality and the middle class growth since 1913. Look at international investment in the U.S. dollar vs. 1913. Btw, in what universe are you getting that the dollar is worth less than 4 cents compared to the 1913 dollar? You mean nominally? Because that's a worthless statistic if you're not talking in real terms. Btw, large trade deficits aren't usually a good thing certainly, especially long term, but to pretend they're somehow always a bad thing ignores reality.

And Keynesian economics had little to do with irresponsible political spending in combination with tax cuts by this administration, as well fiscal irresponsibility by prior administrations and Congresses. Look up the myth of trade deficits here.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
A few points to make here.

1. Economics is a social science with lots of theories. But as a social science it rests on the flimsiest foundation possible. Namely totally irrational human being and economics dares to assume there is any science possible in predicting what amounts to the aggregate behavior of a mob. To further skew any possible science to be gleaned, economics thought further rests on the concept of a government able to rationally apply controls when in fact most governments are based on the most irrational set of humans possible, namely politicians who must engage in short run thinking to ensure their survival. Always delivering the good times.

2. Classic Keynesian economics is supposed to damp the normal cyclic swings of an economy
by having the government borrow and spend during bad times to pump up the economy and
then pay back the debt during the good times to prevent the economy from swinging to far up. Instead politicians borrow all the time negating that control. Leaving only the control of interest rates based on the assumption that the capital can be found and anyone is optimistic
enough to borrow to invest in capital goods. Or that the other pillar of the economy is intact, namely that a market exists for the goods. Go too far and you get not a recession but a depression in which the very thing a capitalist economy rests on, namely the customer, can no longer afford to buy the good and services, which reduces employment, which reduces the ability of customers to buy in a vicious circle where the economy can stabilize at a very low level.

3. Given thats its consumer spending that drives the economy, we are doing things exactly wrong by allowing wealth to concentrate which was one of the root causes of the great depression. Worse yet, the machines of a modern economy tend to devalue labor as we can now produce more with less labor. And we are not properly thing about the impacts that now favor capital at the expense of labor. There are still the economic prediction of Marx and Engel thus far staved off by rising technology. And as non renewable natural resources are depleted by the twin pressures of consumption and over population, the existing world economic model is unsustainable long term.

4. I have to be somewhat baffled that any belief in a libertarian economic philosophy like Ron Paul's still exists. Those ideas flopped in the late 19'th century and the 20'th century answer was found to be regulation even if its imperfectly applied. Even a casual read of the late 19'th centuries business cycles and orgies of corporate greed show the good ole days were definitely not so good. And now the new model seems to be to dismantle those very regulations. And now we do and we get S&L meltdowns and a massive bail out during the Reagan years. And now we saw the Western electric crisis run by companies like Enron, and can't see that oil going from $40.00 a barrel to $100.00 during the GWB watch is corporate
manipulation of the supply.

5. The US myth is that we can have guns and butter, and continue to run massive deficits
in government borrowing and a balance of trade. And then piss off the rest of the world with cowboy diplomacy. Its unsustainable long term. Eventually the rest of the world will quit loaning us money and our currency will collapse. The project for the new American century has been the project to accelerate the decline.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
I have to largely agree with LL, which doesn't mean that Paul's points aren't valid. Bernanke was part of the Fed during their "create and give away money to stimulate the economy" actions of recent years, and I'm confident that Bernanke knows full well that the only way to save the big banks and the govt from ruin is to monetize the debts, inflate the currency. Rather than smoothing out the business cycle, the Fed has contributed substantially to a bubble economy, and now we get to pay the price. It's not much of a price for the very few at the top of the pile, which is who's reaped the huge gains of the last several years, anyway. Anybody with a lick of ssense could see it coming, particularly those with a top-down perspective...
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
I have to largely agree with LL, which doesn't mean that Paul's points aren't valid. Bernanke was part of the Fed during their "create and give away money to stimulate the economy" actions of recent years, and I'm confident that Bernanke knows full well that the only way to save the big banks and the govt from ruin is to monetize the debts, inflate the currency. Rather than smoothing out the business cycle, the Fed has contributed substantially to a bubble economy, and now we get to pay the price. It's not much of a price for the very few at the top of the pile, which is who's reaped the huge gains of the last several years, anyway. Anybody with a lick of ssense could see it coming, particularly those with a top-down perspective...

The fed took the perspective of not trying to manipulate the economy too much because centrally planned economic policy is ruinous.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Yeh, right, legend killer. If the Fed had dropped rates any lower over the course of the Bush clusterfuck, they'd have been paying banks to borrow...

Watch just how ruinous letting the wolves of wall st and the bankers run loose with free money turns out to be...
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
^ Agreed. I'm still surprised that people argue about the success of the Fed. It's one of the reasons that, while I will vote for Paul, I hope he never gets anywhere with abolishing the Fed (and he definitely wouldn't).
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
I have to largely agree with LL, which doesn't mean that Paul's points aren't valid. Bernanke was part of the Fed during their "create and give away money to stimulate the economy" actions of recent years, and I'm confident that Bernanke knows full well that the only way to save the big banks and the govt from ruin is to monetize the debts, inflate the currency. Rather than smoothing out the business cycle, the Fed has contributed substantially to a bubble economy, and now we get to pay the price. It's not much of a price for the very few at the top of the pile, which is who's reaped the huge gains of the last several years, anyway. Anybody with a lick of ssense could see it coming, particularly those with a top-down perspective...

The fed can go ahead and inflate the money supply all it wants it won't save the banks. The only way to save the banks is to increase wages.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
I think people are a little bit delusional here. The reason the dollar has been weak against other currencies is not because of the fed. Other countries, like the ones in Europe, have central banks too, yet their currencies aren't losing any luster. The reason why our currency is weak is because of the huge trade deficit.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Hacp
I think people are a little bit delusional here. The reason the dollar has been weak against other currencies is not because of the fed. Other countries, like the ones in Europe, have central banks too, yet their currencies aren't losing any luster. The reason why our currency is weak is because of the huge trade deficit.

It is not. The main difference between those other countries and our own bank is that they have had several periods of an economic cycle already. Instead of going through an economic cycle, like they have, we have forestalled one by manipulating our monetary system. In european cases they are actually *raising* rates rather than dropping them in these times. Their main goal is to protect their currency, unlike us, who just want to make sure we don't ever have to cut back buying.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,938
264
126
It all boils down to capital, land, and labor no matter how you look at it. In a capitalistic society you live within cycles of feast and famine coupled to growth through innovation. No matter what economic philosophy you use there is either innovation or the economy collapses. The U.S. is rife with the same problems it had in the beginning of the twentieth century, namely a self defeatist attitude swelling through the proletariat class. We look around the world and its well understood that the third world is manufacturing anything worthy of producing; without local foundries the general population is out of touch with technologies used to lead innovation. We look at the highest paying jobs and they are being horded by the upper crust; nepotism is a curb to innovation. As a society we allow the capital that needs to lead the innovation cycle to be siphoned off by the working class in the form of credit card debt; poor people have no right to spend beyond their means. We've got a war that hemorrages money with no economic profit; the money again should be put into industry across the board, securing resources for the future, building the infrastructure, and as a carrot for the leaders of the next innovation cycle.

I don't care what school you believe in, we are failing to meet present obligations to maintain our place in the future world economy.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Hacp
I think people are a little bit delusional here. The reason the dollar has been weak against other currencies is not because of the fed. Other countries, like the ones in Europe, have central banks too, yet their currencies aren't losing any luster. The reason why our currency is weak is because of the huge trade deficit.

It is not. The main difference between those other countries and our own bank is that they have had several periods of an economic cycle already. Instead of going through an economic cycle, like they have, we have forestalled one by manipulating our monetary system. In european cases they are actually *raising* rates rather than dropping them in these times. Their main goal is to protect their currency, unlike us, who just want to make sure we don't ever have to cut back buying.

Most of the Central banks in Europe didn't raise rates at all. Instead, they kept rates stable when they meant to raise them earlier in the year. The fact is that you can trace with dollar's decline with the growing trade deficit. We started seeing big deficits around 2000-2001 mostly because of the WTO deal we signed with China in 1999. Thats when the dollar started to flounder.
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,461
996
126
Originally posted by: Capitalizt
Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
while Paul's understanding of economics is solid, his opinions on inflation are merely that; opinions, which are not widely accepted consensus in the least compared to neo-classical or Keynesian economics. .

Keynesian economics is what got us in this $9 trillion mess in the first place. The dollar is n ow worth less than .04 compared to the dollar of 1913.

I'm willing to give Austrian economics a shot for a change..

No government spending on social programs and defense has what got us into this $9trillion mess.

And if you think $9trillion is bad. You ain't seen nothin' yet. Unfunded medicare libablities will be atleast triple that amount over the next 30 years.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
I enjoy listening to Paul because he gets to the heart of issues very quickly and is well spoken. I don't get the impression that he's qualifying every statement he makes and carefully picking every word in an attempt to ward of criticism by those who may try and pick apart statements. The interesting note is that he seems smart enough to not bother with this and yet not misspeak at the same time. When have you ever seen Bush, for instance, spout off the cuff for five minutes discussing something at a quickened pace and it actually makes sense?

Agree with him or not, his character and intellect is something more politicians should aspire to. He is not defined by hypocrisy and talking points.

More like Bernanke schooled Paul, per usual.

Disingenuous trolling, per usual.

Bernanke hardly even tried to refute things, just sat there like a kid calling into the principal's office being taken to task for graffiti on the walls.
 

redgtxdi

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2004
5,464
8
81
While I mostly agree that our trade deficit problem is partly to blame for the fit we're in, I also think that the Fed needs to leave its finger out of the dike!

So what if things are bad for a while.

Part of my problem with our current economic scenario is that we (as a country) have COMPLETELY forgotten what it's like for things to suck!!

What's the worst thing that's going to happen to MOST of those in the subprime mess. If they have to move back in w/ mom & pop, even w/ kids in tow............SO WHAT!!!!!!!!

I wish this country would quit feeling entitled to 10 TV's, 5 cars, 6 cell phones, 20 different version of iPod, a Taco Bell and Starbucks on every corner........and a red front door to complete their perfect fung shui & start wondering what it might be like to live behind a grocery store for a while & STILL consider how much better that would be than the thousands who will die tonight in fvckin' mud huts somewhere in southeast Asia!!!!!!

Mother @#!$%^!~$^~!$~^~$@#@$ !!!!!!!!!
 

Turgon77

Junior Member
Nov 1, 2006
12
0
0
The trade imbalnce is the obvious reason the dollar is worth less. How much capital do we have to continue this imbalance? It can't go on forever. Even an elementary school kid as enough sense to realize that printing more money that is based off nothing, exceeding the rate of inflation, is plain stupid.
I fully support Ron Paul and many people are beginning to identify with his ideas.
A side note, the biggest problem we face as a country is reliance on foreign energy sources. The entire economy is based on energy. We have tremendous resources in our own country that we are not allowed to tap. This is ridiculous.
 

Delita

Senior member
Jan 12, 2006
931
0
76
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Hacp
I think people are a little bit delusional here. The reason the dollar has been weak against other currencies is not because of the fed. Other countries, like the ones in Europe, have central banks too, yet their currencies aren't losing any luster. The reason why our currency is weak is because of the huge trade deficit.

It is not. The main difference between those other countries and our own bank is that they have had several periods of an economic cycle already. Instead of going through an economic cycle, like they have, we have forestalled one by manipulating our monetary system. In european cases they are actually *raising* rates rather than dropping them in these times. Their main goal is to protect their currency, unlike us, who just want to make sure we don't ever have to cut back buying.

Alot of the currencies that have really gained the most against the dollar are those in high interest rate economies (ie Turkey-16.75% , Brazil-11.25%, New Zealand-8.25%, Australia-6.75%, and the UK-5.75%). This may prop up a curency for a while by attracting international "hot money." However, these super high rate economies (mainly Turkey and Brazil) are a symptom of inflation-prone monetary policy. The Canadian dollars rise could be attributed to the price of oil (although they did raise interest rates in July). Alot of commodity exporting countries will see their currency rise whenever the price of their exports rise faster than the price of their imports (Australia for example). Trade deficits really have nothing to do with it. Australia's current account deficit is larger than that of the USs' (as a share of GDP). The inverse is also true. currencies of commodity exporters will fall when commodity prices fall (the Canadian dollar in 1986, 1998, and 2001).
 
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