Ron Paul's Straight Talk

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,077
2
0
A presidential campaign in a purely democratic system would look very strange indeed, as any rational candidate would focus only on a few big population centers. A candidate receiving a large percentage of the popular vote in California, Texas, Florida, and New York, for example, could win the presidency with very little support in dozens of other states.

Okay, maybe that's true, but I'd rather elections come down to, and candidates campaign strictly in NY, CA, TX and FL than...

OHIO
IOWA
NEVADA
NEW MEXICO
NEW HAMPSHIRE
HAWAII

...
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
We need more people like Ron Paul to represent us

No doubt about that. But I don't see you posting articles from Paul critical of statist Bush.
 

Gen Stonewall

Senior member
Aug 8, 2001
629
0
0
Originally posted by: konichiwa
A presidential campaign in a purely democratic system would look very strange indeed, as any rational candidate would focus only on a few big population centers. A candidate receiving a large percentage of the popular vote in California, Texas, Florida, and New York, for example, could win the presidency with very little support in dozens of other states.

Okay, maybe that's true, but I'd rather elections come down to, and candidates campaign strictly in NY, CA, TX and FL than...

OHIO
IOWA
NEVADA
NEW MEXICO
NEW HAMPSHIRE
HAWAII

...

Now way would I want presidential candidates to base their campaigns (and policy) on the interests of shady city slickers. (You can probably tell I'm somewhat city-phobic, though for good reason.)
 

Ferocious

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2000
4,584
2
71
Wow.

I admire Ron Paul a lot.

I've been against (though not strongly) the EC system for some time.

But after reading his thoughts on the matter....I will need to re-think about it again carefully.
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,470
1
81
From the article:
Constitution, however, which expressly established the United States as a constitutionally limited republic and not a direct democracy
:thumbsup:
Originally posted by: konichiwa
A presidential campaign in a purely democratic system would look very strange indeed, as any rational candidate would focus only on a few big population centers. A candidate receiving a large percentage of the popular vote in California, Texas, Florida, and New York, for example, could win the presidency with very little support in dozens of other states.

Okay, maybe that's true, but I'd rather elections come down to, and candidates campaign strictly in NY, CA, TX and FL than...

OHIO
IOWA
NEVADA
NEW MEXICO
NEW HAMPSHIRE
HAWAII

...
Why?

Pull out a map...Ohio, Florida, Nevada, etc. better represent what America looks like (a few big cities and a whole lot of less densely populated area)
 

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,077
2
0
Fine, while the geography may represent most of America, the MOST AMERICANS live in the aformentioned states.

Not to mention this system was instituted in a time in which you had to actually, personally listen to the candidate speak otherwise accept word of mouth. It's not as though people who are on the candidate's stump trail get a DIFFERENT message than I do being from Atlanta, where I can read the same stuff on the internet, in newspapers and on TV.

It's an outdated system from a time when rural communites ruled America and big cities hardly existed. We don't live in that time anymore.
 

FuzzyBee

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2000
5,172
1
81
Originally posted by: konichiwa
It's an outdated system from a time when rural communites ruled America and big cities hardly existed. We don't live in that time anymore.

But we do still live in a time where state's rights exist. Remember the slogan "No taxation without proper representation?" It still works that way today.

Besides, think of it this way: there are already enough wackos in Montana that thinks the government doesn't represent them. Just wait for the havoc when their prophecy somes true!
 

Insane3D

Elite Member
May 24, 2000
19,446
0
0
Originally posted by: konichiwa
A presidential campaign in a purely democratic system would look very strange indeed, as any rational candidate would focus only on a few big population centers. A candidate receiving a large percentage of the popular vote in California, Texas, Florida, and New York, for example, could win the presidency with very little support in dozens of other states.

Okay, maybe that's true, but I'd rather elections come down to, and candidates campaign strictly in NY, CA, TX and FL than...

OHIO
IOWA
NEVADA
NEW MEXICO
NEW HAMPSHIRE
HAWAII

...

What's your problem with NH? :|

It's actually a good mix of people up here... I don't know if you noticed but we went for Kerry this time around...

No sales or state income tax...can you say that?

 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
The whole article is a farce. Fist he starts off by making mention of the Founding Fathers' efforts to protect freedom of speech, which is a wonderful cause but not accomplished though Electoral College. He then goes on to suggest that abolishing the electoral college would create a "majority tyranny in federal elections", which is downright oxymoronical as tyranny implies unjust or cruel abuse of power and therefor can't rightly apply to the simple act of selecting a leader though popular opinion. Absurdly, in arguing against his supposed "tyranny of the majority" he effectively argues for tyranny of the minority; a situation were the majority of the peoples opinions can be oppressed by the will of the few.

After that abstraction from reality he really lets loose with absurd claims; equating a call for a democratically elected president to abolishing the equal representation of states we enjoy though our Senate, suggesting that a popular presidential election is hostile to liberty, and scaremongering with the idea that the idea of abolishing the electoral college is an evil plot by immoral elitists. Driving the absurdity of his arguments home, he presents the ridiculously oversimplified claim that the federal government was created by the states while overlooking the fact that it is we the people which are at the root of the our governments power.

Finally he closes by pointing out that mob rule democracy threatens liberty; which, while true, is irrelevant to the simply act of democratically electing our executor. By closing with such a blatant non-sequitur, the author makes rather clear that he lacks a good argument to defend our current electoral system. If someone has something besides empty rhetoric to add to the discussion, I'd like to hear it.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
He might have had a point up until he started ranting and raving about the elite liberals hating everyone else. Give me a break, people are agains the EC because the majority of Americans can vote for Candidate B, and Candidate A gets elected. That applies to both sides of the fence. I think this is kind of simplistic, and after studying the issue I've come to accept that raw votes wouldn't be too good of an idea.

But yet another anti-liberal rant is something I can do without, thank you very much.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
I don't think raw votes would in a direct election would be a good idea at all as we could easily wind up with a majority that is far from a plurality; that would effectively create a much more severe tyranny of the minority than what is passably with the current system. However, a runoff election would eliminate any possibility of such a situation, and provide a system in which the election cannot be won simply by focusing on a few swing states hinging on issues largely irrelevant to much of the population.
 

MonstaThrilla

Golden Member
Sep 16, 2000
1,652
0
0
How exactly is changing the way we vote for our President anything like "mob rule" or "direct democracy"?!?!

The glaring fact remains: we're still voting for a President!
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
The Electoral College has worked perfectly for over 200 years and will continue to work just fine.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Historicly, assuming that something will contenue to work simply becuase it has worked leads to things not working out "just fine" by any means.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Historicly, assuming that something will contenue to work simply becuase it has worked leads to things not working out "just fine" by any means.
What makes you think the Electoral College will contenue to not work in the future?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
For those unfamiliar with Ron Paul, he is the only Libertarian in Congress. He is labeled as a Republican only because Texas laws prohibited him from running as a Libertarian. He is not well-liked among Republicans, and in the '96 and '98 elections, the Republican party backed an opponent against him, but he won easily both times. He has such a hold on Texas' 14th District now that he was one of very few congressional incumbents to run unopposed this year.

Source

And, as usual, he is right on here.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
He is right on with his rehash of the commonly referenced empty rhetoric, but he is way of on the truth.


Originally posted by: conjur
What makes you think the Electoral College will contenue to not work in the future?

Our current system could indefinitely contenue to work just as we still have monarchies working in many places today. Regardless, with the current system there can be quite a large rift between who We the People feel should lead us and who the Electoral College elects; and, simply pointing out that something has worked is not reason to ignore its faults and dismiss alternatives.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Yet no one suggested we are, and no one suggested we should; so such comments are hardly relevant to this discussion.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Yet no one suggested we are, and no one suggested we should; so such comments are hardly relevant to this discussion.
You're implying we should be as you think the Electoral College has faults.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
Originally posted by: conjur
Well, we're not a democracy. It's not pure majority rule.
And thank God for that, because pure democracy is where 51% vote to kill off (or enslave, or disenfranchise) the other 49%.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Yes Vic, that would be awful. However, denying popular election of or president doesn't preclude that, our judicial and legislative branches are designed to uphold the fundamental concept of "majority rule, minority rights" regardless of how our executor is elected.

Originally posted by: conjur
You're implying we should be as you think the Electoral College has faults.

I am by no means implying that we should become a democracy or institute pure majority rule in any way. I am simply suggesting that we respect the concept of "all men are created equal" when we count our votes toward electing the president.
 

phynet

Member
Oct 26, 2004
30
0
0
I have a simple solution (or atleast I think it is). Keep the EC, but divide up the votes in each state by percentage. So NJ would still have 15 EC votes but since it went 51%-48% it should go 8-7. Jersey went Republican pretty big for the first time yet the 3 cities outwayed the rest of it.
 
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