Rubber deterioration - do all cars older than 12 - 15 years have a huge jump in costs?

[fuzzybabybunny]

I'm in Australia and this is my first time buying a car that's older than 15 years (1995 Mitsubishi Delica L400, a 2.8TD 4x4 van with a low range and 145k miles).

Needless to say, I've learned a lot with all the things that have gone wrong with it almost right after purchase.

- Before buying I already knew that the rear main seal was leaking engine oil - had to take the transmission off to replace. I thought that replacing the rear main seal would fix the leak, but...

- Then the oil sump started leaking oil, so replaced the gasket which was expensive because an *engine mount* was blocking one of the sump bolts.

- Now the oil leak is coming from somewhere else.

- The rubber transmission mounts rotted through and were replaced.

- Rubber bushings in a number of areas were replaced recently by the previous owner.

- Fuel pump now needs a complete rebuild because the shaft seal is leaking and the other rubber parts aren't far behind.

- Coolant pump was replaced recently by the previous owner because a rubber seal was worn.

All of this has cost thousands of dollars in expensive labor just to replace $20 rubber parts.

****

People like to talk about how reliable diesels are, how Hiluxes go for 500k miles, etc, etc., but what I've come to realize is that, sure, Hiluxes and other "reliable" cars may run for a huge number of miles, but you'll still be paying a LOT of money to replace rubber parts that start to deteriorate after 13-15 years.

So when looking for a used car, it seems that the sweet spot for a worry-free car is between 1 to ~13 years of age. Before 1 year the price is still quite high compared to new. After 13 years, the sale price will be low but repairs *will be* quite high because that's when numerous rubber components leading to expensive repairs start to fail. It doesn't matter how "bombproof" a certain car's reputation is - rubber is rubber and will rot on all cars alike.

Would you say that this is an accurate statement on average?

 

[ondma]

I would certainly agree that age is a factor, as well as mileage. I have a Honda Civic nearing the 15 year mark, and have not had any major problems related to rubber breaking down. The ride is a bit harsh because some of the suspension mounts are worn/deteriorated, but nothing that requires replacement. In a climate that receives snow/ice melting chemicals in the winter, I would probably be concerned about frame and suspension rust more than rubber breaking down.

 

[JCH13]

Rubber is not just rubber. Different polymer formulations, plasticizer choices (or lack thereof), and proximity to chemicals, heat, and other stressors will all affect a polymer's lifespan.

In my former Miata, which was 23 years old at the time, there were numerous original hoses and rubber parts. These included the engine mounts, brake vac lines, and exhaust hangers.

Perhaps more to your financially-driven point: you're going to pay or you're going to pay, you just get to pick if it's depreciation or maintenance. Yeah, at 15 years you're likely to replace a bunch of rubber parts. But these can be tacked onto other required maintenance items for a marginal cost increase (doing the water pump? replace all the coolant lines while it's drained). You invest a little bit extra and then you've reset the clock back to 0, with 15 more years of life for far less than the cost of buying something newer.

 

[NutBucket]

Sounds about right. I've replaced nearly every evap hose on my WRX this year due to them being old and brittle. In fact I was chasing air leaks in the intake side that I finally tracked down to the fuel injector seals. I've also replaced the strut mounts. The fronts were so bad the ride height increase by about 3/8" when the new parts went in! I've also got to go through the suspension bushings too.

So yes, "old" car problems. Anything that isn't steel or aluminimun is a wear item. Some just wear slower than others.

 

[jlee]

Just wait til you hit 25-30 years old and OEM wiring harnesses start to fail...

 

[NutBucket]

While I currently have no intentions of dumping this car (it's only a 2005), I can definitely see that coming. A lot of the split loom is pretty cooked and brittle. Maybe it would be wise to spend some time redoing it.

It's obvious there's a lot more heat to deal with here. When I sold my Honda it was 15 years old and most of the hoses and such were still pretty soft.

 

[jlee]

While I currently have no intentions of dumping this car (it's only a 2005), I can definitely see that coming. A lot of the split loom is pretty cooked and brittle. Maybe it would be wise to spend some time redoing it.

It's obvious there's a lot more heat to deal with here. When I sold my Honda it was 15 years old and most of the hoses and such were still pretty soft.

I figured out last year that ~5 years of ignition headaches in my MR2 were all due to failing OEM wiring. All the aftermarket stuff I've done over the years, and the things I had kept unmodified (for reliability purposes) were the ones giving me problems, haha.

 

[HarryLui]

I would certainly agree that age is a factor, as well as mileage. I have a Honda Civic nearing the 15 year mark, and have not had any major problems related to rubber breaking down. The ride is a bit harsh because some of the suspension mounts are worn/deteriorated, but nothing that requires replacement. In a climate that receives snow/ice melting chemicals in the winter, I would probably be concerned about frame and suspension rust more than rubber breaking down.

You may want to check your control arms.

From a 2004 Civic.
Passenger side control arm new vs stock

Driver side control arm new vs stock

2004 PT control arm, bushing totally separated from the control arm

2000 Honda insight trailer bushing

1994 Volvo strut mount

Rubber parts fail with oxidation and sun exposure, it's just part of the owner ship.

Just wait til you hit 25-30 years old and OEM wiring harnesses start to fail...

Megasquirt time!

 

[jlee]

You may want to check your control arms.

From a 2004 Civic.
Passenger side control arm new vs stock

Driver side control arm new vs stock


2004 PT control arm, bushing totally separated from the control arm


2000 Honda insight trailer bushing


1994 Volvo strut mount



Rubber parts fails, it's just part of the owner ship.




Megasquirt time!

I actually ran MegaSquirt for a while and have ECU Masters EMU now -- the problem was the wiring to the OEM igniter, which was still used by both ECUs. I changed to coil on plug and all of my problems vanished (and then I found a damaged wire in the OEM igniter harness).

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Rubber is not just rubber. Different polymer formulations, plasticizer choices (or lack thereof), and proximity to chemicals, heat, and other stressors will all affect a polymer's lifespan.

In my former Miata, which was 23 years old at the time, there were numerous original hoses and rubber parts. These included the engine mounts, brake vac lines, and exhaust hangers.

Perhaps more to your financially-driven point: you're going to pay or you're going to pay, you just get to pick if it's depreciation or maintenance. Yeah, at 15 years you're likely to replace a bunch of rubber parts. But these can be tacked onto other required maintenance items for a marginal cost increase (doing the water pump? replace all the coolant lines while it's drained). You invest a little bit extra and then you've reset the clock back to 0, with 15 more years of life for far less than the cost of buying something newer.

A lot of things aren't maintenance items.

The rear main seal, front main seal, sump seal. I have no idea how you'd maintain this, and the first two are very expensive to replace.

Rocker cover gasket. Again, not a maintenance item, but luckily on mine it's an easy fix.

Fuel pump seal. Not a normal maintenance item.

All bushings and mounts. Not really routine maintenance. You just change them as they rot away, and after 15 years many of them will start to rot away.

Just wait til you hit 25-30 years old and OEM wiring harnesses start to fail...

Mine is at 24 years. How do the wiring harnesses fail?

 

[NutBucket]

Maintenance just means they'll wear out eventually.

Wiring harnesses wear out due to age. Prolonged exposure to heat and moisture eventually causes the insulation to fail. Then moisture gets in the conductors and resistance goes up or you get shorts.

 

[JCH13]

A lot of things aren't maintenance items.

The rear main seal, front main seal, sump seal. I have no idea how you'd maintain this, and the first two are very expensive to replace.

Rocker cover gasket. Again, not a maintenance item, but luckily on mine it's an easy fix.

Fuel pump seal. Not a normal maintenance item.

All bushings and mounts. Not really routine maintenance. You just change them as they rot away, and after 15 years many of them will start to rot away.



Mine is at 24 years. How do the wiring harnesses fail?

Are tires listed on the maintenance schedule? How about refueling? A waxing interval for your paint? Is there a schedule for replacing headlights and turn signal bulbs and wipers?

I know, I'm being facetious. Everything is a maintenance item. Unlisted items should be considered RTF: run 'til fu... failed. Nothing on any car should be considered indefinite life.

Wiring harnesses will fail in a number of ways, including:
-oxidized/cracked insulation
-worn seals
-corrosion
-fatigue of connectors
-fatigue of conductors
-fretting/wear between wires/insulation

 

[ondma]

i consider a "maintainence" item to be an item that is inspected/replaced/repaired at specified intervals as per the owner's manual. Just semantics, really, because the type of item being discussed is a "repair" or potential repair, but they dont have to be serviced unless something fails, in contrast to say engine oil, coolant, etc.

 

[C1]

Another thing I bumped into is that due to environmental laws and globalization, a new rubber or plastic replacement part purchased 15+ years later (if you can even get it), aint the same animal.

For example, in the case of my 77 Dodge Aspen, I went thru five motor mounts before I found one in which the rubber material would hold up/not early fail.

A piece of rubber made in 1980 aint the same formulation as the rubber allowed to be made today, and the difference may not be for the better.

Environmental regulation is one reason behind manufacturing being moved to places like China, Tiwan or even Korea/India.

 

[FeuerFrei]

Another thing I bumped into is that due to environmental laws and globalization, a new rubber or plastic replacement part purchased 15+ years later (if you can even get it), aint the same animal.

For example, in the case of my 77 Dodge Aspen, I went thru five motor mounts before I found one in which the rubber material would hold up/not early fail.

A piece of rubber made in 1980 aint the same formulation as the rubber allowed to be made today, and the difference may not be for the better.

Environmental regulation is one reason behind manufacturing being moved to places like China, Taiwan or even Korea/India.

Sounds familiar.

A local guy (Texas) who restores Corvettes for a living (owned his own shop for years), says he has to order weatherstripping/seals from Taiwan in order to get quality parts. Our glorious Environmental Protection Agency's regulations have ruined local parts on hand. So many little ways the EPA degrades our living standards.

 

[ondma]

Sounds familiar.

A local guy (Texas) who restores Corvettes for a living (owned his own shop for years), says he has to order weatherstripping/seals from Taiwan in order to get quality parts. Our glorious Environmental Protection Agency's regulations have ruined local parts on hand. So many little ways the EPA degrades our living standards.

Yea, damn that clean air. Smog is so much better at promoting lung cancer.

 

[nakedfrog]

Sounds familiar.

A local guy (Texas) who restores Corvettes for a living (owned his own shop for years), says he has to order weatherstripping/seals from Taiwan in order to get quality parts. Our glorious Environmental Protection Agency's regulations have ruined local parts on hand. So many little ways the EPA degrades our living standards.

I don't think having to get your sports car weatherstripping from Taiwan can really be called a "degraded living standard".

 

[rstrohkirch]

I don't think having to get your sports car weatherstripping from Taiwan can really be called a "degraded living standard".

What if he lives in his sports car?

 

[nakedfrog]

What if he lives in his sports car?

He should consider trading it for a van, and relocating it near a flowing source of fresh water.

 

[JCH13]

He should consider trading it for a van, and relocating it near a flowing source of fresh water.

 

[trenchfoot]

Sounds familiar.

A local guy (Texas) who restores Corvettes for a living (owned his own shop for years), says he has to order weatherstripping/seals from Taiwan in order to get quality parts. Our glorious Environmental Protection Agency's regulations have ruined local parts on hand. So many little ways the EPA degrades our living standards.

I just went through a body off restoration on my '73 Vette. What I learned (the hard way) about the whole experience was that when sourcing replacement parts, especially stuff like you mentioned, reliance on fellow enthusiasts is critical, as well as going through the trouble of doing a thorough research on each and every component being restored/replaced and who sells them, right down to which brand of speed nut is the best or what type of heat resistant wire wrapping tape is the best one to use etc. with corrosion repair/resistance and long term preservation of fragile expensive parts being at the top of the list.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

25 years old, 145,000 miles. Yes, you are going to go through a lot of restoration and replace a lot of parts built with rubber.

Age is one aspect, mileage is another. We just replaced the shock-absorbers on my brother's 95 Nissan SE pickup. It still had the original factory shocks, and you could certainly hear and feel the result of their wear. The Nissan had 160,000 miles on it when we bought it from our mechanic.

When looking for a used car, you'd like to find one that has low mileage (between, say, 35,000 and 70,000). I bought my Trooper with 96,000 miles on the odometer -- a 95 that was six years old when I found it. You will go through a cycle of repairs and replacements. With that, you aim for an engine and transmission that have longevity reputations. In my case, the reputations proved true. But if you fail routine coolant flushes, the water pump may give out at 130,000. Also in that mileage range, the alternator. Definitely -- the CV-joint boots.

Once you complete a cycle of replacements, the vehicle may seem better than new. But the older the vehicle, the more likely that the parts deteriorating just from age will seem like an irritation.

I wouldn't be so surprised, though, if you have these headaches for a vehicle with 145,000 miles on it. The only used vehicle we ever bought with that sort of high mileage was the Nissan truck. And then again, we were lucky -- mechanic owned and driven -- mechanic's special. He took care of everything except the body -- with surface rust, oxidation and dents. Taking care of those things this summer cost me maybe $500 and a lot of time. Now it looks good enough for chrome wheels, but why spend another $500+ just for that?

Staying at a hotel during our termite fumigation ordeal at home, I encountered a traveling salesman who pulled up in this beautiful cream-colored Lincoln Continental. 101,000 miles at purchase -- for $1,400. He had put another 18,000 miles on it; no problems with it. It was a 1997 model year.

I guess -- to anyone I would say this. If you want a particular car of a particular year, make and model, you can certainly have it. But you are advised to consider the various part-replacement cycles and budget some extra ducats as a consideration with your purchase price. You should always save money over buying a new car, but there are additional headaches that go with expected restoration.

 

[Torn Mind]

The dirty secret is that plastics and rubber do wear out. Depending on the manufacturer, some will wear out even sooner because they're small and gotta make a profit(i.e Mazda). My mom's Toyota is approaching 13 years of age. The hoses are fine, but the plastic connectors are sticky.

Had they be lubed lovingly with silicone grease, the rubber and plastics would last much longer. So, when anyone buys a new car, do yourself a favor, buy some dielectric grease and put the lube down everywhere there is an electrical connectors.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

It's all about the stocks and flows of money, and the stocks of expected lifespan and the flow of usage.

I'm personally a "used-car" sort of guy. To avoid car payments, and cut the insurance costs. But when you buy a pre-owned vehicle, its subsystems may be approaching the end of their cycle at 100,000 miles. Try and get a good deal on the car, but plan the refurbishments with a little study about the car, and have a budget for it.

My own hard lesson was learned in 2004, two years after I acquired my Trooper. Automatic transmissions are approaching end-of-life or need for significant service after 100,000 miles. I just kept on driving it, and suddenly the smell of burned ATF coming up through the center console in the middle of a marathon cross-country pilgrimage.

This or that car may have a better reputation, but it's best to plan for the inevitable. After that, I have developed this conviction over the years that complete refurbishment of an old vehicle can make it seem to run better than it did new. This has happened to me twice in my life.

As for rubber or plastic parts, there are options, there are materials that can be applied in repair. Get familiar with the online national OEM supply chain. Sometimes, you can find the new part. How much does it cost? That's a crap shoot.

 

[mindless1]

All of this has cost thousands of dollars in expensive labor just to replace $20 rubber parts.

This is the key factor. You practically have to be able to DIY most of your repairs for a vehicle over 15 y/o, or less depending on mileage.

Things like engine seals, or anything really, you need to inspect for leaks before purchase, and note what issues you wouldn't be willing to DIY fix. You might also want to inquire of the seller, what specific engine oil is in it. If it's leaking as-is and already has high mileage oil (a formulation with seal swellers in it), or a thicker than manufacturer recommended viscosity, you've run out of inexpensive mitigation, but if running plain oil you may have a little time left with high mi. oil, providing you can tolerate a few drips under it and topping it off.

Ultimately, if aging vehicles didn't have these (or rust) issues, they wouldn't drop in value so much. It's also good to investigate what parts for the vehicle in question cost. Certain brands have significantly higher priced parts, may need specialized tools for some repairs, and some parts may not even be available except from 3rd parties if at all.

Old vehicles make the most sense to someone who has, over the years, built up some skills and tools so they are better able to tackle whatever comes along, but the internet makes many repairs and parts acquisitions easier.