Rumor: AMD to Undercut Ultrabooks up to $200 (Digitimes)

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georgec84

Senior member
May 9, 2011
234
0
71
Come on, AMD. Do this right, take some market share, and make some profit.

I don't want Trinity ultrathins to simply serve the purpose of Intel lowering prices. I want these systems to sell well and perform well.

Their GPU performance destroys Intel and CPU performance should very good for the price point.
 

OS

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
15,581
1
76
So, both can do the same things but,

One is $500 with better battery life, smaller form factor, lighter but with worst keyboard,

The other cost double at $1000, has weaker battery life, it is bigger and heavier but has better keyboard,

I chose the PAD


can this PAD thing play crysis?
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
32
86
can this PAD thing play crysis?

Hasn't everyone beaten crysis by now?

As for laptop vs tablet, that is a pretty ignorant comparison at this point. Tablets are media consumption devices only. Laptops can double as workstations these days. That is a major difference.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
AMD has a HUGE advantage over Intel with Trinity.

Not only do they have a large price advantage (the PC laptop market isn't ready to shell out $1000 for ultrabooks), but Trinity's APU will offer a huge advantage over the crummy Intel HD graphics we currently have in ultrabooks.
 

StrangerGuy

Diamond Member
May 9, 2004
8,443
124
106
This got me thinking: How cheap can laptops get before one of the the major vendors eventually fall and bite the dust?
 

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,228
1,603
136
I will agree that Pads were not mend for heavy work, but i believe most of the users that would like to have an Ultrabook would not use it for heavy work and instead they need it for everyday usage, for web browsing, chatting, lite office tasks, mailing etc.

IMO, for those tasks a Pad is better because it is cheaper, smaller and lighter.

Maybe i'm just too used to how I use my computer but I would be in the market for such an ultrabook especially the Lenovo one with touchscreen although it won't be released anytime soon.
Anyway I waited forever for such notebooks but then had to buy few month before they were available. got a X220 for 40% rebate (still more than normal US price...). The thing is for reading or watching movies lying on your back you don't have to hold the weight of the laptop you can rest the "keyboard" on your stomach and only have to hold the display for balance. So it is actually lighter than a tablet.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,673
5,201
136
Much slower in what ??? browsing ??? mailing ??? playing movies/youtube ?? writing on word ?? facebook ?? those are the everyday tasks users do, a quad core ARM with SSD and Android 4/Win 8 will be perfect for those tasks with all the plus i said earlier.

There are users that do need higher performance but IMO the majority of the users that will buy an Ultrabook they jdont.

Dont get me wrong, if you need the higher performance with high battery life and you do travel a lot and you need a slim, lightweight fast Laptop then Ultrabooks are for you, but those users are the minority


You're right....most users don't need an ultrabook other than wanting a thin, fast performing, lightweight computer.

And that sort of leaves out tablets.

As an example, I bought my father-in-law an Asus tablet for him to use while he was in the hospital. Figured the small form factor, light weight, etc., would be more appropriate for him than his old C2D-based IBM T61 Thinkpad.

He gave it a couple of days of use until he almost begged to have his heavy, clumsy, oversized laptop brought in and left the tablet sit on his bedside table, unused.

So, I took it. Wanted to use it to replace my Lenovo T420 laptop for occasional light duty use. After a week, I put it down. Horrible interface.....lousy typing experience, web sites that didn't respond well to touch, got tired of losing half the screen to a "keyboard" interface when I just wanted to type in a password, was SLOW!!!, etc., etc.

Sure, it was good for watching videos streaming or glancing at email, and I'm sure it is a vast step up from doing the same on a phone...about the only competition the tablet wins against in comparison....but as a computer, it sucks!

Went back to my T420, gave the tablet to the wife. She won't use it, either. Too clumsy an interface, too slow, hates the keyboard interface.

So, tablets do have a place as a phone replacement and pure consumption device. As a computer replacement....not even close.
 

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,436
1,657
136
This got me thinking: How cheap can laptops get before one of the the major vendors eventually fall and bite the dust?

Pretty damn cheap. Almost all of the big guys have huge amounts of business contracts where they sell machines at almost a 50% increase in price, just to be able to also sell it with a $150-200 docking station.
 

grkM3

Golden Member
Jul 29, 2011
1,407
0
0
just read that acer will drop its already cheap s3 by 200 while the prep for the s5 to hit the streets.

699 is going to make it hard for any company trying to compete in the ultra catagory
 

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,436
1,657
136
Toshiba's Z835 (Core i3) has been sold for $699 with a 128GB SSD. Is AMD going to sell ultrathins $100-200 below this price with a >=128GB SSD, or the $1000-1200 price?

http://www.laptopreviews.com/toshiba-z835-ultrabook-699-at-best-buy-sunday-2011-12

My Guess is that they want to match features of the $1k and have their selling at $800. Which means pricing down the chipset and CPU, while rearranging a couple thing. (like including USB 3 in the chipset). Do that right and you can take quite a $$$ off the price.

In theory these would be fantastic machines. Low power. light. small profile. But still having usable graphics, and 4 cores would make them more multitasking friendly.
 

FwFred

Member
Sep 8, 2011
149
7
81
The Z835 is mostly feature complete. It's just a different CPU (as is Trinity) and it is one of the 13x7 screens. I'm not sure I believe Trinity+chipset will be $100-200 cheaper than the Core i3 equivalent (which also has USB3 in the chipset).
 

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,436
1,657
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The Z835 is mostly feature complete. It's just a different CPU (as is Trinity) and it is one of the 13x7 screens. I'm not sure I believe Trinity+chipset will be $100-200 cheaper than the Core i3 equivalent (which also has USB3 in the chipset).

I thought most of the ultrabooks where using an NEC chip for USB3. But either way.

AMD is already selling one of the biggest Die sized CPU's at $100-$150. A two module, VLIW 4, trinity chip might not even be that much bigger. They will already be at 32nm so chances are right out of the gate production will be good. Why couldn't they sell that and updated Hudson (M4 or something like it) for what Llano is selling for or less?
 

FwFred

Member
Sep 8, 2011
149
7
81
I thought most of the ultrabooks where using an NEC chip for USB3. But either way.

Oops, meant with Ivy Bridge since it will be Trinity's competition.

AMD is already selling one of the biggest Die sized CPU's at $100-$150. A two module, VLIW 4, trinity chip might not even be that much bigger. They will already be at 32nm so chances are right out of the gate production will be good. Why couldn't they sell that and updated Hudson (M4 or something like it) for what Llano is selling for or less?

I have no idea what Intel sells its i3 for, but my assumption is that it will be quite a bit lower than i5/i7 range. I'm just not so sure there is enough room to undercut an i3 by $100 much less $200.
 

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,436
1,657
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Oops, meant with Ivy Bridge since it will be Trinity's competition.



I have no idea what Intel sells its i3 for, but my assumption is that it will be quite a bit lower than i5/i7 range. I'm just not so sure there is enough room to undercut an i3 by $100 much less $200.

Yeah I don't think AMD is talking about future Intel prices just that they plan on fitting Trinity in at $200 less then they are selling now.

I also don't think they are talking about the i3 crowd. Using those was never Intel's aim. It was supposed to be i5's and i7's.

Basically it comes down to AMD saying that they think they can feature comparative Ultrabooks in at $800. Not that someone can't undercut them by throwing in a i3 or lower. You start going much below 800 though and you start cutting into features and quality (like I don't think you would see all aluminum chassis). I can see that happening.
 

sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
8,172
137
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Unless trinity has 4GB of stacked DRAM and an integrated ssd controller I doubt they are going to be able to cut platform costs. Afaik they havent even ditched the southbridge.
 

FwFred

Member
Sep 8, 2011
149
7
81
As a Macbook Air owner (SB 2011), I was attracted to the platform for the better screen, touchpad, and fast resume times. I sure hope in the race to the bottom we don't lose the nice things about ultrabooks and simply focus on thinness and price.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
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With tablets getting 1920x1200 and above resolutions, hopefully that spells the end of the 1366x768 screen plague. And if not, the PC makers have only themselves to blame if tablets take their market share.
 

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,436
1,657
136
Unless trinity has 4GB of stacked DRAM and an integrated ssd controller I doubt they are going to be able to cut platform costs. Afaik they havent even ditched the southbridge.

They have for APUs. Single chip Hudson chipsets.
 

piesquared

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2006
1,651
473
136
$200.00 price advantage for a very capable system is a big deal.

To elaborate, with Trinity consumers won't feel they are compromizing when comparing to more expensive systems. In many cases they will also get even better performance for a much cheaper price. Given that Ultrathins are almost guaranteed to be bundled with OpenCL based software, it could be by a large margin. And they will produce much better graphics performance as well. Bet there's a lot of pressure to get NV's 28nm rolling although likely won't be enough considering AMD's dual graphics capability and apparant home run with GCN.
 
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386DX

Member
Feb 11, 2010
197
0
0
Come on, AMD. Do this right, take some market share, and make some profit.

I don't want Trinity ultrathins to simply serve the purpose of Intel lowering prices. I want these systems to sell well and perform well.

Their GPU performance destroys Intel and CPU performance should very good for the price point.

I can't believe after the Bulldozer fiasco people still think Trinity is gonna be great and that AMD is gonna deliberately price there system $200 less then Intel if it performs better. Lets look at things objectively.

Most of the information/performance of Trinity comes from this link
http://www.pcper.com/news/Cases-and-Cooling/AMD-Shows-Trinity-APU-Die-And-Trinity-Powered-Notebook
A summary of the key points
* 2 or 4 Piledriver cores and TDP of 65W, 95W, 125W (Desktop variant)
* Clock Speeds vary between 2.2 GHz - 3.8 GHz at stock (faster with Turbo)
* Approximately 30% more performance then current Llano chips (25% CPU, 50% GPU)
* Lower Power Trinity APU with 17W TDP delivers same level of performance as current Llano chips that draw twice as much power.

The last point in bold is the only one really relevant to Ultrabooks. The current Llano chips that draw twice the power of 17W are the 35W A8-3500M, A6-3400M, A4-3300M. Let's give AMD the benefit of the doubt and say the 17W Ultrabook Trinity will perform like the 35W A8 and not the A4.

The A8-3500M is typically about 50-100% slower then the current gen i5-2520M in Single threaded apps and 15-30% slower in Multi threaded apps. However in Games the A8 GPU is typically 50-100% faster then the Intel HD3000.

When Trinity for Ultrabook comes out, it will be competing against Intel's Ivy Bridge. Intel has already demonstrated a 17W Ivy Bridge CPU with improved HD4000 graphics that's approximately 60-100% faster then the old HD3000 GPU. Ivy will also bring a slight improvement in IPC over SB. So if we put all this together you'd get for Intel/AMD Ultrabooks.

* Ivy Bridge 50-100% faster then Trinity in Single Threaded Apps
* Ivy Bridge 15-30% faster then Trinity in Multi Threaded Apps
* Ivy Bridge GPU about the same as Trinity GPU (maybe slightly slower)

So there is nowhere AMD can really compete in the Ultrabook area but on price, that's why there Ultrabooks are gonna be $200 cheaper.
 

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
8,518
8
91
This statement from AMD is a joke. To cut the price, they will be cutting features, period. Intel already is subsidizing the cost of Ultrabooks initially, and they are not charge an absurb amount for the CPUs to begin with. The idea of the Ultrabook was to have a feature-rich platform with small dimensions.

Not to be harsh, but this is another attempt from AMD to 'borrow' marketing from other companies and criticize them instead of developing original ideas on their own. This is not against their engineering prowess (AMD has done great over the years) this is about their product marketing and such.

AMD will not be able to go to major OEMs and get them to make their margins smaller just so they can sell more units, not gonna happen. So unless AMD gives these CPUs out for free, this will not happen unless features get cut. That may be the SSD, maybe a cheaper screen, etc.
 

sawtx

Member
Dec 9, 2008
93
0
61
When Trinity for Ultrabook comes out, it will be competing against Intel's Ivy Bridge. Intel has already demonstrated a 17W Ivy Bridge CPU with improved HD4000 graphics that's approximately 60-100% faster then the old HD3000 GPU. Ivy will also bring a slight improvement in IPC over SB. So if we put all this together you'd get for Intel/AMD Ultrabooks.

* Ivy Bridge 50-100% faster then Trinity in Single Threaded Apps
* Ivy Bridge 15-30% faster then Trinity in Multi Threaded Apps
* Ivy Bridge GPU about the same as Trinity GPU (maybe slightly slower)

So there is nowhere AMD can really compete in the Ultrabook area but on price, that's why there Ultrabooks are gonna be $200 cheaper.

Here's the thing I think you are missing, you aren't going to do anything that taxing on an Ultrabook so most of that extra CPU muscle is going to waste. If you want something that can breeze through stuff you probably will be getting a normal notebook. I also think you are underrating Llano's GPU or overrating Intel's and underrating the driver difference. Personally I would take the Ultrabook that takes slightly longer to load a webpage but actually gives me good chance to game above low settings.
 

sawtx

Member
Dec 9, 2008
93
0
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Why do you say this? Any portable system has to be a desktop replacement now days - excluding corner cases of course.

I would consider this a corner case, you just don't have a ton of features even a regular notebook would have. You don't have a DVD drive, you are using an ULV CPU, and you have less space to dissipate heat. I just don't see an Ultrabook as a viable desktop replacement, it's more of a secondary PC that is very easy to pickup and take with you. I really doubt anyone would pick one up and think that it can replace a workstation/folding machine/ect. What do you think most people do with Ultrabooks?
 
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