Rumor has it that 3dfx has a new trick up their sleeve, and it has something to do with this:

[Soccerman]

hardware, some gigapixel tech might be implimented in the Rampage. no one (except someone in 3dfx) would know that. it's probable that they didn't change the design much at all, but will have drivers (like the rumored upcoming 1.04.00 3dfx drivers) to impliment as much that can be implimented as possible.

then of course, Fear will have been the full integration of Gigapixels GP3 technology.

as for Gigapixel tech not existing, the GP1 was demonstrated at least a year back, with FSAA with nearly no performance hit (from what I remember they said no performance hit, but I'll believe it when I see it).

the company that Gigapixel was before was pure R&D. they sold their ideas to others. their Ideas were first class performance enhancements, the GP-1 was just the first one that somehow got fabbed.

the reason Gigapixel never got to demonstrate the GP-3 was probably because for some reason or another, no-one was interested (well it appears 3dfx was, and bought em out so it would be all the harder for nVidia to acquire that kind of knowledge) in buying their ideas and putting them into silicon form, which I have no doubt would have, and still would, blown us away.

 

[BFG10K]

I came here expecting a thorough discussion about the new OpenGL extensions from 3dfx. Instead all I get is Hardware spewing garbage all over the entire thread.

Come on man, it's OK to be a fanboy but what your doing is ridiculous.

Now I'll talk about the original thread, but I apologise if these points have been raised before. I just couldn't be bothered reading Hardware's zealotry.

FX_GL_HSR (NEW)

This is very interesting. An HSR sceheme? Perhaps even on the Rampage? 3dfx might finally be knuckling down and actually producing industry standard stuff ahead of mainstream acceptance.

Wingznut PEZ:

Is there such a thing as hardware HSR?

That's the only kind there is (at the moment). Ever heard of the Kyro with its tiling scheme? Even the Radeon with its Hyper-Z technology can be considered as having HSR.

Dulanic:

HSR can be done on a fast CPU and you will see a gain.

It would have to be a damned fast CPU, and no matter how fast it was you would always take a performance hit in CPU limited situations. I guess in high resolution situations it would help because it would reduce the workload the video card has to do.

 

[darker]

I just put a V5 and a Geforce 2 GTS onto my rockem sockem robots. The V5 put a smack down onto the GTS and popped its heatsink fan clean off! So in concluesion we can see that the V5 kicks major ass and that the GTS is down for the count. We have a winner and new heavy weight champion! woohoo

 

[Ahriman6]

Well, here's a thought concerning software HSR and this is totally a guess on my part. Would it be possible for 3dfx to use whatever hardware T&L their next part will have to offload the calculations for this HSR from the CPU? How programmable would their T&L need to be? I'm just curious because of the timing of this being worked on. . .don't believe in coincidences.

Edit: Meant to add that if this did work it seems like a smart use of the T&L component's power, because, let's face it, most games even next year won't have enough geometry or lights to strain the hardware that's probably going to be released (NV20/Rampage).

 

[DaveB3D]

A z-buffer is HSR.

As for a CPU hit with software tricks. It depends. Sometimes you can get away with things with little to no hit. Now being entirely theoretical here. The idea of HSR would be to increase performance in the higher resolutions (because lower resolutions are great). So based on that thought, you would have additional CPU cycles in the higher resolutions because you are fill limited. So that said, you can burn CPU cycles in high resolutions with no real performance hit.

That is just theory. Nothing related to 3dfx or anything like that.

 

[BigToque]

<< That is just theory. Nothing related to 3dfx or anything like that. >>



liar Admit it, you know stuff 90% of the people on this board would love to hear

C'mon guys, if we gang up on him, I'm sure he'll spill some beans

j/k

 

[BFG10K]

DaveB3D:

So based on that thought, you would have additional CPU cycles in the higher resolutions because you are fill limited. So that said, you can burn CPU cycles in high resolutions with no real performance hit.

I thoroughly agree with you. In fact just after I hit the post button I realised this, so I must have edited it in the time you responded. The extra CPU cycles you have can be used while waiting for the video card to finish rendering the current frame. In that context software HSR is sort of like anti-T&amp;L: it uses the CPU to offload the video card.

BTW when is Beyond 3D coming back up? I am dying to read your article about 3dfx's 22 bit colour scheme. Just a question about it: say you are running a game in 16 bit mode. How does the Voodoo generate the extra information (ie the 32 bits) so it can then filter it down to enhance the image quality, given the game is only providing 16 bits worth of information?

 

[Soccerman]

yeah from what I've seen over the past little while, 3dfx has stopped really developing drivers for the low resolutions.. their 640X480 benches typically suck compared to other current cards.. but who plays at that res anyway? unless u have FSAA enabled, typically no-one does..

when u DO have FSAA enabled that's where the driver tweaks kick in anyway!

as for using HSR on Rampage in 'hardware', it definetly is possible, if the rumor of the 'T&amp;L' chips not being dedicated for T&amp;L specifically is anywhere near accurate, then I wouldn't be surprised if it DOES alot of bandwidth saving techniques..

this is certainly quite interesting..

keep the posts running guys!

 

[DaveB3D]

No idea when. Just hit http://www.beyond3d.com/old/articles and you can catch all three of the 22-bit articles (well the first one is totally wrong, but it is interesting to see how things develop).

 

[BFG10K]

Soccerman:

yeah from what I've seen over the past little while, 3dfx has stopped really developing drivers for the low resolutions.. their 640X480 benches typically suck compared to other current cards..

That's mainly to do with with T&amp;L which plays a large part in CPU limited situations. 3dfx's drivers have lately been shaping up quite nicely. For example in UT (Direct 3D) which is very CPU dependant and doesn't have T&amp;L, the V5 is usually slightly better than the rest of the competition because 3dfx's Direct 3D drivers are really quite optimal.

 

[BFG10K]

Dave3D:

Just hit http://www.beyond3d.com/old/articles and you can catch all three of the 22-bit articles

I tried that, I get 404 errors on every article I try to read.

 

[madthumbs]

A couple of fps difference between GTS and V5? Maybe in certain circumstances that are hardly ever used in the real gaming world. Unless there is something new I don't know about.

As for the improvement from that .bat file, has no one else tried it? It is a DRASTIC improvement. It corrupts the graphics in Quake 3, and FAKK2, but SoF runs perfect! Quake 3 has had corruption since the last 2 driver releases anyway.

I don't recommend anyone go out and buy a V5 based on this, but it is something to keep an eye on if they do get it implemented, and the price drops, they may have a winner in the bargain video card dept.

 

[Pete]

I'd be amazed if a 9&quot; long, SLI, 64MB behemoth of a video card becomes a bargain. Of course, you must be referring to the 4500.

 

[bluemax]

In hot deals, there's people getting this card for between $130 and $140... while it might not be quite &quot;bargain&quot;- it's pretty darned reasonable for that kind of quality and power!!
Count me in for 4x FSAA! The Geforce2MX has given me a tiny taste of FSAA I want bad! This thing is GONE and it's Voodoo5 all the way! (Until someone can get FSAA that can even come close! And I also mean in D3D not just OpenGL. Glide's a bonus.)

 

[madthumbs]

From what I understand, the GTS 2 does have FSAA that comes close. Who is gonna notice the difference while playing? In fact, I find 4xfsaa on the V5 unplayable at a respectable resolution in any game released in the past 2 years. 1024x768 with 2xfsaa seems to be the sweet spot most of the time.

 

[Weyoun]

regarding 22-bit colours and the post filter, i think the game only provides 16 bits of colour data, and the postfilter blurs *feel free to correct me* it into an effective 22-bit. The 22-bit output wasn't digitally created, it's rather an approximation based on the output colour depth, so it's not up to digital analysis. All in all, makes some pretty snazzy 16-bit games

 

[Michael]

madthumbs - I try and stay out of the videocard wars these days, but I play quite a few games released this year and can play 1024x768x32 4xFSAA with no issues. NFS5 and NHL2001 both work fine and both came out this year. I've used even higher resolutions with 4x FSAA, but there are occasional pauses that are distracting. Dropping down to 16 bit colour allows you to up the resolution even more.

I have a friend with a GF2 and he plays the same games and uses FSAA as well. I've seen them in action. They look good and play well. He is very happy with his videocard.

The simple truth is that the GF2, the Radeon, and the V5 are all very, very powerful chips. Most games will run just fine on TNT2's, and Voodoo3's, so the newer cards do very well. Even the &quot;budget&quot; versions - GF2 MX, V4 and Radeon SDR do really well on almost all games at the usual resolutions. Face it, most people use a 17&quot; or smaller monitor and 1024x768 is pretty much the highest that is run.

Michael

 

[madthumbs]

Michael,

No offense, but last time someone told me that their games played fine on their system at high settings, I had them do a benchmark for me in Q3 (timedemo 1; demo 001) They got 15fps! I don't consider this playable at all. So please, benchmark Q3a with the timedemo 1 demo 001, 32bit color/ textures, high geometry, no modified .bat files, lightmap on, at 1024x768 with 4xfsaa, no major &quot;tweaks&quot;. Let us know what you find. I doubt mine would break out of the 30's. Personally, I aim for 55-60 for offline, and 70-80 for online since it drops into the 20's at times at my offline settings.

 

[Michael]

madthumbs - Why should I benchmark Q3a? Did I say that I play Q3a? Did you say Q3a or all games released in the last two years? I own but don't like Q3a, I'm an UT player. 800x600x32 with 4xFSAA seems to do fine for UT. 1024x768x32 w/ 4xFSAA does slow down enough every once and a while, 16 bit is fine.

If you meant just Q3a with your dismissive comments about the ability to play games released in the last two years, maybe you should edit your post and say so.

It seems that there are many, many people who don't understand that Q3a sold well, but it isn't even close to games like NFS5, NFL2001 (NHL2001 for me since I grew up in Canada). For me, Q3a benchmarks are not the be all and end all for choosing a videocard.

I'm curious when Q2 came out, it works fine at FSAAx4 at 1024x768.

Note - I think that the GF2-based videocards do edge out the Radeon and (by a little more) the V5. However, all three are ok choices.

Michael

 

[bluemax]

When running 4x FSAA, you wouldn't need to run any higher than 800x600 anyways! 2x is great for 1024 and maaaaaaybe 1280 if you wanted to go that high. 1600 for whackos with 37.8&quot; monitors doesn't need FSAA.

I want the 4x mode for games like Escape from Monkey Island which are only in 640x480... I tried it on the MX I have for another day or two and without FSAA it just looks HORRID! The MX's default FSAA takes the edge off, but it's still pretty bad.
V5! Save me with your 4x FSAA powers noone can beat!!

(Yes, the GTS has &quot;4x&quot; mode which is only somewhat better than 3dfx's 2x mode... the multipliers mean nothing as far as onscreen quality goes- review after review gives the FSAA crown to 3dfx, both for quality and speed when running in FSAA mode. Add the fact that only 3dfx has FSAA for Glide, OpenGL *AND* Direct3D. Nvidia can't do it... if they could I might have kept this card.)

The price dropped right on time for me to get a good deal from Onvia! $300 Canadian - $50 coupon = $270CDN after taxes! That's only a bit higher than Quino's price, but NO hassles over the border and a pretty retail box.

YeeeeeeeHAAAAAAA I gots' me a good'un!

 

[BigToque]

<< but NO hassles over the border and a pretty retail box. >>



Truly, when all is said and done, its the pretty retail box that makes it all worth while

 

[bluemax]

Really, it's the avoiding of the Intergalactic Border Patrol (See: Strange Brew) that I worry about buying from they states. They hijacked a 2x DVD drive worth $35, demanding their taxes... Gah!
MGS
Money Grubbing Scum

 

[Hardware]

I was reading somewhere software HSR is difficult because of slow Z-Buffer access and a complete recalculation every frame.
I am sure some Nvidia software engineers are working now on it. For a t&amp;l chip its even more possible to do software HSR (more cpu free) but I doubt we will see it on the software side!

 

[Ahriman6]

Hardware:

Why would Nvidia be working on software HSR when they're implementing a hardware-based HSR in NV20?

 

[DaveB3D]

Well we know that NV20's HSR is basically HyperZ. Maybe a bit more effective. So in other words it is far from perfect.

BFG;


On the ulrs to the articles, you need to add the /old/ like in the main url. then the articles will work.