[Rumor, Tweaktown] AMD to launch next-gen Navi graphics cards at E3

[maddie]

Have you checked the die sizes? You want GTX 1080 Ti performance, but you forget, that on 12 nm process it was achievable with bigger die size, than it was required for GTX 1080 Ti(RTX 2080 - 545 mm2, GTX 1080 Ti - 470 mm2). Why do you expect that Nvidia would sell you something like this, for 300-350$ when smaller die they sold for 700$?

As for pushing the boundaries. Explain to me in plain english. What AMD has to benefit from, if they have faster product than RTX 2070, and they have to price it, according to forum experts, lower than Nvidia's competitive product?

I still haven't got a REALISTIC answer for this question, from business point of view. Companies want to make money. Lets say RX 5700 is 10-15% faster than RTX 2070 across the board. How many cigar sized blunts AMD's CEO would have to smoke in order to decide that 300-350$ price tag for that product is good for them, from business point of view?

A realistic answer is brand perception by consumers. You might not agree but that doesn't mean it's wrong. Such is the world and you have to adjust your behavior accordingly. Using numbers alone is not realistic, try animal instincts to get a better understanding.

A perfect example is the 1050Ti versus the RX470/RX570. A purely logical purchaser would have no problem choosing AMD, but reality showed the Nvidia card outsold it. Explain this.

It will take a few generations starting from the present status quo to change the mass market perception.

 

[beginner99]

if AMD/NV relased card similar to pretty much all old x70 cards except 1070(that was 450usd at launch and didnt sell well compared GTX970).1080TI performance for 330-350usd you can be sure GPUs will be selling alot more.Also people are just tired of constant price increases every generation.

Exactly. I still have a 290x meaning anything polaris and below would be a side-grade. RTX2060 was probably first card coming somehwat close in performance/$ but after all these years the performance gain is still "small". Normally a 290x should be unsuable by now...

 

[Glo.]

Man why you deffending price increases?I dont care how big die size is.This is how things works.You get old TOP card performance for 300-400usd with new generation.
GTX470 was on brand new 40nm node 529mm2 die size and launched for 349usd and AIB models was even cheaper.It was 14% faster than last gen fastest card GTX285.
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Palit/GeForce_GTX_470_Dual/29.html
not even 1year later we get GTX570 wich was GTX480 for 340usd so we get 500usd GTX480 perf for 340usd
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Palit/GeForce_GTX_570_Sonic_Platinum/28.html
Another node jump this time brand new 28nm node and GTX670.This time 26% faster than old fastest card GTX580 and for 400usd
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Gigabyte/GeForce_GTX_670_Windforce/28.html
GTX770 was just renamed GTX680
GTX970 that was GTX780TI performance for 330usd
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_970_Gaming/27.html
GTX1070 like i said was overpriced at 450usd and thats why didnt sell good.It sells very bad compared to GTX970.But atleast matched old Gen fastest card TITANX.
RTX2070 is even worse than 1070.Its slower than old gen top card and cost 500-600USD.

If amd only match worst x70 ever made(rtx2070) for same price then it will be overpriced crap just like rtx2070 is.Minus RTX/DLSS and 1year later on market.

You are mistaking your expectations with the reality of business.

Im not defending price increases. Im understanding them. From business perspective. And I will not make a statement about what any card SHOULD cost. One way, or another.

Its funny that you have not answered my question.

So I will repeat it. How stupid would have to Dr Lisa Su be, to price better performing GPU at lower price than RTX 2070? How big the blunt would have to be, for CEO of AMD to decide that pricing Navi GPU, that is 10-15% faster than RTX 2070, at 300-350$ is a good business decision.

 

[AtenRa]

Unless they are really really 7nm volume constrained, there is no way they going to price an equal to RTX2070 performance NAVI card at $499 without providing RayTracing.

Also to note,

Even at 250mm2 at 7nm , this chip should have close to 10B transistors, this is 75% more than Polaris 10 (RX580) that has 5.7B Transistors. In comparison TU106 (RTX2070) has 10.8B transistors and a large portion of them is used for the RT Cores.

 

[Glo.]

A realistic answer is brand perception by consumers. You might not agree but that doesn't mean it's wrong. Such is the world and you have to adjust your behavior accordingly. Using numbers alone is not realistic, try animal instincts to get a better understanding.

A perfect example is the 1050Ti versus the RX470/RX570. A purely logical purchaser would have no problem choosing AMD, but reality showed the Nvidia card outsold it. Explain this.

It will take a few generations starting from the present status quo to change the mass market perception.

If majority of buyers are stupid, why AMD would have to bend to that majority, and sell better product, than Nvidia, for less money? They will not make money on that part of market regardless of what Navi will cost. Heck, they can even lose money, if that will happen. Because Nvidia will reduce the prices of RTX 2070 to match AMD's offerings. And how that will affect their sales?

Why not go then for price margins, and earn the bloody money?

 

[railven]

Man why you deffending price increases?I dont care how big die size is.This is how things works.You get old TOP card performance for 300-400usd with new generation.

Because this time it's AMD doing it. When it was NV they were rightly skewered. I'm lucky enough to have "stupid money" so the cost of an RTX 2080 Ti didn't bother me, but now with RT missing in action, I feel like I got duped!

Either way, AMD needs the money. At this point the only real thing people can do is support them. But let's not forget, for years AMD was pushed to be a value brand by some of the same posters who are now changing their tune. Which is another red flag to me that Navi isn't going to be anything special, so just prime the consumers for a price hike.

 

[AtenRa]

Its funny that you have not answered my question.

So I will repeat it. How stupid would have to Dr Lisa Su be, to price better performing GPU at lower price than RTX 2070? How big the blunt would have to be, for CEO of AMD to decide that pricing Navi GPU, that is 10-15% faster than RTX 2070, at 300-350$ is a good business decision.

Personally if I had NAVI 10 and was 10% faster than RTX2070 but didnt had RayTracing, I would launch it with a MSRP of $399 . Something similar NVIDIA did with GTX680 against HD7970 back in 2012. Then let NVIDIA run to launch a new RTX2070Ti at $499 by using an even larger die TU104 and loose more money.

Thats IF NAVI 10 is 10% faster on average against current RTX2070.

 

[Glo.]

One more thing this discussion unfolds which I forgot actually about.

Every mistake Nvidia makes towards consumers will be easily forgiven.
Every mistake AMD makes towards consumers will NEVER be forgotten and NEVER be forgiven.

 

[AtenRa]

Because this time it's AMD doing it. When it was NV they were rightly skewered.

There is a difference when we are talking as consumers and when we are talking from a business point of view.

As consumers we ALL would like a 250mm2 GPU to be sold at $250.
From a business perspective at current time that NVIDIA has raised prices, AMD can take the opportunity and raise prices as well. We dont like it as consumers (Im not going to buy one) but we do understand the reasons behind the decision.

I believe that is what Glo is talking about.

 

[railven]

One more thing this discussion unfolds which I forgot actually about.

Every mistake Nvidia makes towards consumers will be easily forgiven.
Every mistake AMD makes towards consumers will NEVER be forgotten and NEVER be forgiven.

Haha, good day for a show. Kudos! Don't ever give up the good fight!

 

[Glo.]

There is a difference when we are talking as consumers and when we are talking from a business point of view.

As consumers we ALL would like a 250mm2 GPU to be sold at $250.
From a business perspective at current time that NVIDIA has raised prices, AMD can take the opportunity and raise prices as well. We dont like it as consumers (Im not going to buy one) but we do understand the reasons behind the decision.

I believe that is what Glo is talking about.

Speak for yourself. I would gladly take bigger die sizes from any vendor at lower prices, and lower power consumption.



And yes. This is what I am talking about. Business perspective.

 

[lifeblood]

...Explain to me in plain english. What AMD has to benefit from, if they have faster product than RTX 2070, and they have to price it, according to forum experts, lower than Nvidia's competitive product?

I still haven't got a REALISTIC answer for this question, from business point of view...

There are people for whom FPS is the only thing that matter, these are the folks that run quad SLI setup and such. The rest of us look at multiple factors; FPS, TDP, features, driver reliability, overclocking potential, etc. And yes, brand perception is in there as well.

Based on the Sapphire rumors the Navi XT may be 10% faster the RTX 2070 in FPS, but it lacks in every other category. It runs hotter and lacks RTRT. By running hotter it’s probably overclocking limited, and it definitely has worse brand perception.

What’s that worth dollar-wise? 2070 is $499. What is Navi worth? Navi is 10% faster. How much more money is that worth? Let’s say $20. But its TDP is (about) 50W higher. How much do we deduct? Let’s say $15 minus anther $5 for poor overclocking potential. Now were back to $499. But Navi is missing RTRT, deduct another $20. AMD has poor brand perception, that’s another $10 or $20 deducted.

What does that give us? Navi should be around $40 less than 2070. We can argue individual prices, I’m not set on $20 for this and $10 for that, the point is that they are not equal cards based on current rumors. If it was only about Navi being 10% faster for 50W TDP increase I would call them equal. I don’t like Nvidia and their business practices so I would pick Navi over 2070 for myself. Unfortunately Navi also lacks RTRT which I think has a future and so I find Navi less desirable and therefore not worth the same price as 2070. Those are my priorities, yours may be different. Obviously my brand perception is different than the average consumers currently (but that may be slowly changing curtesy of Ryzen).

Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it. The Corollary to that is “if no one buys it then it’s not worth the price”. AMD knows this and therefore knows it can't expect to sell Navi at the same price as 2070 if the customer doesn't perceive it to be equal to 2070. That's the business case. The average buyer is stupid, no argument there, be they're the ones with the money and they're the ones AMD has to convince to hand over that money.

 

[railven]

There is a difference when we are talking as consumers and when we are talking from a business point of view.

As consumers we ALL would like a 250mm2 GPU to be sold at $250.
From a business perspective at current time that NVIDIA has raised prices, AMD can take the opportunity and raise prices as well. We dont like it as consumers (Im not going to buy one) but we do understand the reasons behind the decision.

I believe that is what Glo is talking about.

There is two side to this coin, one I found AMD pro-supporters never really looked at until now. One side is consumer-friendly, price / perf etc. The other side is business, making money! I threw lots of support behind AMD, especially HD 7970 only to watch a lot of "pro-AMD" posters bash its price. AMD still needs to make money. They aren't as sleazy as NV has been with their black-box dev relationships. But in the end these methods got NV a lot of brand awareness. Hell, I turned on a PS3 game and was greeted by a giant Nvidia logo.

The issue is it feels also too late now. AMD had to make money some where, but Glo. was one of the few pushing Vega to be the next coming of GPU Jesus that would decimate NV once the magic drivers were released FOR LESS MONEY. This is where my issue with his sudden change in position stems from. You, on the other hand, have remained firmly in the "it better be affordable" camp. To which I admire, but eventually AMD has to make money, and feel you will be disappointed.

End of the day, consumers are always fleeced. Doesn't matter who's fleecing you, you'll be fleeced. Just buy what makes you happy. The lack of RT games is making me unhappy, and my RTX 2080 Ti is now more of a sore spot than a positive spot. But c'est la vie, hopefully we get more RT titles announced soon.

 

[AtenRa]

Based on the Sapphire rumors the Navi XT may be 10% faster the RTX 2070 in FPS, but it lacks in every other category. It runs hotter and lacks RTRT. By running hotter it’s probably overclocking limited, and it definitely has worse brand perception.

And you know it runs hotter how ???

 

[Glo.]

There are people for whom FPS is the only thing that matter, these are the folks that run quad SLI setup and such. The rest of us look at multiple factors; FPS, TDP, features, driver reliability, overclocking potential, etc. And yes, brand perception is in there as well.

Based on the Sapphire rumors the Navi XT may be 10% faster the RTX 2070 in FPS, but it lacks in every other category. It runs hotter and lacks RTRT. By running hotter it’s probably overclocking limited, and it definitely has worse brand perception.

What’s that worth dollar-wise? 2070 is $499. What is Navi worth? Navi is 10% faster. How much more money is that worth? Let’s say $20. But its TDP is (about) 50W higher. How much do we deduct? Let’s say $15 minus anther $5 for poor overclocking potential. Now were back to $499. But Navi is missing RTRT, deduct another $20. AMD has poor brand perception, that’s another $10 or $20 deducted.

So you haven't answered the question. Neeeext...

In a serious note. Once again.

How big must have been the blunt that dr Lisa Su would have to smoke, for the decision to price better performing GPU, with similar power draw, at much lower price tag, to be justified? From business perspective. Tell me.

Your post tells me that you have no idea, how this business works.

 

[Glo.]

And you know it runs hotter how ???

BECAUSE ITS BLOODY AMD BASED! You should know that by now. Everything they make is hot, slow, and cheap.

P.S. There is a lot of backlash from community about the rumored prices. You have had expectations about Navi's price/performance. And I know where they came. There are two people to blame for your disappointment. You and Jim/AdoredTV.

 

[railven]

Woof, went from swearing to drug reference. This launch may have broke him! Haha.

 

[AtenRa]

P.S. There is a lot of backlash from community about the rumored prices. You have had expectations about Navi's price/performance. And I know where they came. There are two people to blame for your disappointment. You and Jim/AdoredTV.

That was directed to me ??

 

[Glo.]

That was directed to me ??

To everybody. Thankfully, I was not the target with the Navi 5700 series release, so I am not disappointed. I was considering buying one of 5700 series GPUs, but...

Semi-Passive/Passive computer is too tempting. The other side of this coin, it appears that there will not be any passive/fanless, no 6-pin GPU AMD. So Im *******d.

 

[lifeblood]

And you know it runs hotter how ???

Based on the current rumors the $499 Navi is at 225W vs 175W for 2070. If it turns out that is not true then that obviously alters the equation.

 

[Glo.]

Based on the current rumors the $499 Navi is at 225W vs 175W for 2070. If it turns out that is not true then that obviously alters the equation.

Have you checked the ACTUAL POWER CONSUMPTION of RTX 2070 GPUs?

Because 2070 GPU is actually 200-215W power draw GPU.

P.S. Last time I checked, WCCFTech claimed there are two GPUs, one with 150W TDP, and one with 180W TDP. The 150W TDP GPU has 180W TBP, and the 180W supposedly has 225W TBP.

 

[maddie]

If majority of buyers are stupid, why AMD would have to bend to that majority, and sell better product, than Nvidia, for less money? They will not make money on that part of market regardless of what Navi will cost. Heck, they can even lose money, if that will happen. Because Nvidia will reduce the prices of RTX 2070 to match AMD's offerings. And how that will affect their sales?

Why not go then for price margins, and earn the bloody money?

You answered this in an earlier post. 7nm design costs and spreading it over a larger production run. Margin is not a static value and independent from total sales, it's interconnected.

To return to market parity with Nvidia will be a long slog assuming no missteps by Nvidia, which I think might have already started with the RTX cards and their pricing. In the interim, AMD might just have to accept smaller than desired margins. Almost certainly, they did this with the consoles contracts, probably rightly thinking that any margin is better than nothing and the resulting cash flow allows time to improve the situation.

Does the completely rational buyer even exist? Economic theory says yes, but my belief is they do that to simplify an otherwise almost unpredictable chaotic system.

 

[AtenRa]

Based on the current rumors the $499 Navi is at 225W vs 175W for 2070. If it turns out that is not true then that obviously alters the equation.

When you say it runs hotter it doesnt mean it has a higher TDP.
You can actually have a card with higher TDP that can run at lower temperature than another card which has a lower TDP.

 

[Glo.]

You answered this in an earlier post. 7nm design costs and spreading it over a larger production run. Margin is not a static value and independent from total sales, it's interconnected.

To return to market parity with Nvidia will be a long slog assuming no missteps by Nvidia, which I think might have already started with the RTX cards and their pricing. In the interim, AMD might just have to accept smaller than desired margins. Almost certainly, they did this with the consoles contracts, probably rightly thinking that any margin is better than nothing and the resulting cash flow allows time to improve the situation.

Does the completely rational buyer even exist? Economic theory says yes, but my belief is they do that to simplify an otherwise almost unpredictable chaotic system.

AMD/ATi will NEVER have market parity because they do not have Mindshare. And I mean NO mindshare. Let alone Mindshare like Nvidia has. They would need Nvidia to genuinely **** up like Intel to overtake them.

Biggest growth is right now in HPC, Data center, etc. And there is also biggest margin to get.

 

[lifeblood]

Have you checked the ACTUAL POWER CONSUMPTION of RTX 2070 GPUs?

Because 2070 GPU is actually 200-215W power draw GPU.

P.S. Last time I checked, WCCFTech claimed there are two GPUs, one with 150W TDP, and one with 180W TDP. The 150W TDP GPU has 180W TBP, and the 180W supposedly has 225W TBP.

According to a couple of Internet spec sheets I've looked at, RTX 2070 official TDP is 175W. Of course that will vary with usage. The 225W TDP for Navi is based on Internet rumor since all we have are Internet rumors right now. My estimate on the value of Navi vs 2070 is based on 10% better performance at about 50W more power with no RTRT. If any of these things change then the whole equation changes.

If wccftech is right, and I wish someone else other than wccftech listed that rumor as they're not very reliable, but assuming they are right then that makes Navi a better deal. 10% better performance at only 5% more power? I would tend to go with Navi over 2070 in that case even without RTRT.