[Rumor, Tweaktown] AMD to launch next-gen Navi graphics cards at E3

[DownTheSky]

I was on the fence between buying an RX5700 or RTX 2060 but now that I see Cyberpunk 2077 will use RT for global illumination it's almost certain I'm getting an RTX card.

 

[tviceman]

Yesterday we had ASUS Strix 2070 for $450. Today we have Aftermarket EVGA B-Stock 2070 with 1 year warranty for $400. With prices like these NAVI is DOA.

https://www.evga.com/products/product.aspx?pn=08G-P4-2173-RX

It's not entirely fair to compare b-stock with brand new cards, but $450 for a new after market 2070 is "good" with today's market.

I think the super 2070, if it exists, will still be $499 MSRP.

 

[soresu]

I was on the fence between buying an RX5700 or RTX 2060 but now that I see Cyberpunk 2077 will use RT for global illumination it's almost certain I'm getting an RTX card.

CP 2077 wont be out for 10 months yet if that is the significant deciding factor.

 

[maddie]

We are probably at the early skirmishing part of an extended perf/price battle. Nvidia's super line will raise the value and be countered. I would argue that Nvidia need desktop sales a lot more than many believe. Putting aside margin, which too many swear are the only number of relevance, the total volume of product to amortize R&D is essential, and we're finally at the point where APU sales (Intel & AMD) will remove the need for most laptop GPUs.

They will never cede sales volume to AMD, so I predict a slow burn price war starting now, assuming that AMD wants to stay in the discrete VGA market, which I believe they do.

 

[Guru]

Out of more than 20 RTX 2070 on newegg, ALL but one are above $500. So I don't know where this fake news is coming up about some magical $450 2070's, but it just isn't true. The average price on newegg seems to be about $515.

AMD is coming up with about 7% faster card at $50 less, that is a good deal, and no AMD are NOT going to pander to Nvidia loyalists who want absurd, insane, ludicrous prices for AMD cards, ONLY so Nvidia feels pressure and lowers their price a bit, so they can buy Nvidia cards anyways. AMD is getting smarter and are not pandering to the Nvitaloyalists by selling at losses, only for nloyalists to buy Nvidia anyways. The Nvidia loyalists, propagandists will have to buy overpriced Nvidia cards if they want Nvidia cards.

Considering how small the die size is for these GPU's, AMD can EASILY reduce the price of these cards by $100 and still make decent profits, Nvidia would not want to go into a price war with AMD as their die size is much bigger and their cards are more complex due to RT cores, making the yields smaller.

The RX 5700 that competes against the RX 2060 is a poor value admittedly, 10% performance advantage for $30 more is not good value, but again AMD are getting smarter and not playing into the cult like following of Nvidia that will buy Nvidia cards no matter what.

AMD may come up with a RX 5900XT that beats the RTX 2080ti for $300 and they will still buy Nvidia and give some silly excuse as "DLSS feature is worth $1000 more". So AMD are playing the smart game and not lowering prices only for loyalists to buy Nvidia for the cheap. This forces the loyalists to buy Nvidia cards over expensive and allows the rest of the crowds to choose to pay $50 less for 10% better performance.

 

[fleshconsumed]

It's not entirely fair to compare b-stock with brand new cards, but $450 for a new after market 2070 is "good" with today's market.

I think the super 2070, if it exists, will still be $499 MSRP.

Yeah, that's probably accurate.

I would disagree on the EVGA b-stock though. If that was Zotac Refurb with 90 day warranty, then yes, that is not comparable with new. However, with EVGA 1 year warranty behind their b-stock I'd have zero problem buying it.

Overall, I'm pretty disappointed that the market has failed the midrange gamer yet again. Looks like I'll be keeping my RX480 for a while longer.

 

[mohit9206]

I suspect the board partners know what's coming with the Super announcement. As several in this thread have mentioned the net effect of Navi might be better value Nvidia - doesn't help AMD as everyone still buys Nvidia. Particularly as there are more RTX games getting announced, and some look good enough that people are gonna buy an RTX gpu just to play them (e.g. Cyberpunk 2077).

I'm sorry but I'm tired of this argument that no matter what amd does people will still buy nvidia - its a pretty lame way to defend amd. If amd made good products at good prices it would sell, but they don't hence they don't sell. Vega and Navi both committed the same mistake - by making an inferior card than Nvidia and expecting people to pay the same as nvidia. Its a good thing as amd cpu division is not making boneheaded decisions compared to their gpu division otherwise we would still be stuck with Intel 4C/4T CPUs for $250 even in 2019.

 

[fleshconsumed]

Out of more than 20 RTX 2070 on newegg, ALL but one are above $500. So I don't know where this fake news is coming up about some magical $450 2070's, but it just isn't true. The average price on newegg seems to be about $515.

I posted links to $450 and $400 2070's. They're real. They are both still available right now. You can buy them right now if you want to. You'd be paying same or less for an aftermarket cooler 2070 as opposed to blower NAVI. NAVI is overpriced compared to the current competition.

 

[alexruiz]

I posted links to $450 and $400 2070's. They're real. They are both still available right now. You can buy them right now if you want to. You'd be paying same or less for an aftermarket cooler 2070 as opposed to blower NAVI. NAVI is overpriced compared to the current competition.

The Asus Strix requires BOTH a coupon code (temporary, not permanent) AND a $30 mail in rebate. Out the door price is still around $500 for most people as most states have sales tax.

The eVGA, as already pointed out, it is NOT new. All the eVGA fanboys can claim whatever they want, but in the end, it is a USED card that happens to have 1 year warranty through the maker.

Also, who says we won't be getting comparable offers on some Navi models? These TEMPORARY offers are at the discretion of the seller.

 

[Arkaign]

I posted links to $450 and $400 2070's. They're real. They are both still available right now. You can buy them right now if you want to. You'd be paying same or less for an aftermarket cooler 2070 as opposed to blower NAVI. NAVI is overpriced compared to the current competition.

Yeah, this really sucks Discounted 2060/2070 OG models are the best we can hope for in the near term, as the 'TI/Super' models supercede them. It is looking like they're refreshing the lineup and will push the originals off a cliff after the launch period. To come so late, and be so meh, is sad.

I mean, the RTX stuff was already extremely disappointing, largely fitting into now 2.5-3 year old price/performance levels, and then we get more of the same.

Someone who bought an OG 1060/1070/1080/1080ti on launch is probably laughing at this. GPU has barely moved since.

 

[railven]

I am not sure why NV even reacting to NAVI because NAVI prices are so bad.
5700 AIB will be 400+usd
5700XT AIB will be 500+usd
Super refresh was probably set in motion month ago and NV expected AMD would be far more agresive with pricing.But after navi reveal with crazy high prices nv really dont need refresh at all, but they will release it anyway(probably at far worse price than they would release it if amd was more agresive)

Here is hoping NV has more RTX announcement and thus will recoup it's initial launch losses with a stronger refresh, side benefit buries AMD.

Ray Tracing is now a hot topic buzzword, and the Gamers are hungry for it. Announce a refresh, discount all the older stuff, start promoting more Ray Tracing, which creates demand for a feature your rival has no chance of competing in (for now).

Everything I've learned of NV is they are a ruthless business. GTX 1080 Ti only existed to basically make Vega fail. [EDIT: the price point! Not the product itself.]

 

[ElFenix]

i thought we'd all learned you can't compare refurb/used/coupon/rebate pricing to MSRP. guess not.

wait to see where retail sales pricing settles in after initial demand surge.

 

[railven]

i thought we'd all learned you can't compare refurb/used/coupon/rebate pricing to MSRP. guess not.

wait to see where retail sales pricing settles in after initial demand surge.

When did this ever happen? Only reason I don't suggest cards to anyone is always the "Nope. <links to obscure website that only accepts bitcoins for payments but is cheaper thus making your point invalid>" posts that make it not worth the hassle.

If anything, I EXPECT someone to always post rebates/bundles/coupons/Craig's List to prove their point. It's like an ATF tradition to me.

 

[guachi]

They will never cede sales volume to AMD, so I predict a slow burn price war starting now, assuming that AMD wants to stay in the discrete VGA market, which I believe they do.

I am not a marketing major and have no knowledge of AMD's internal financials, but the prices of the two Navi cards was underwhelming, if only because it's unlikely the price comparisons would last. But... AMD could get a lot of positive response by immediately announcing a $20-40 price cut of their Navi cards.

 

[Hans Gruber]

Yeah, this really sucks Discounted 2060/2070 OG models are the best we can hope for in the near term, as the 'TI/Super' models supercede them. It is looking like they're refreshing the lineup and will push the originals off a cliff after the launch period. To come so late, and be so meh, is sad.

I mean, the RTX stuff was already extremely disappointing, largely fitting into now 2.5-3 year old price/performance levels, and then we get more of the same.

Someone who bought an OG 1060/1070/1080/1080ti on launch is probably laughing at this. GPU has barely moved since.

It hasn't move at all. 1080ti is still cutting edge. The 1080 came out in what 2016? This is pathetic.

 

[maddie]

I am not a marketing major and have no knowledge of AMD's internal financials, but the prices of the two Navi cards was underwhelming, if only because it's unlikely the price comparisons would last. But... AMD could get a lot of positive response by immediately announcing a $20-40 price cut of their Navi cards.

Mining delayed the day but it's going to happen. AMD must have a sales number to justify the investment in this line of RDNA cards. If it appears to be running behind, then prices will fall. Same with Nvidia, I don't think they're offering better models for our benefit and not theirs.

 

[Thala]

2070 is more like 195W than 175W.

Computerbase.de has measured RTX2070 over a series of games averaging 170W. So i do believe GPU TDP is indeeed 120W for the RTX2070 with typical board power around 175W, just as NVidia claims.
This also means that with a hypothetical 7nm shrink at iso frequency we would look at around 90W TDP or half as much power as Radeon 5700XT respectively.

[Computerbase] RTX2070 Power measurement

 

[Arkaign]

What a weird world it would be if Intel ends up saving value GPUs, say 2020ish they release a 2070 level card for $249 lol.

IDK. This whole thing would have been unthinkable in the past. Say 2001-2004 basic performance stayed very similar and new cards kept coming out with approximately same price/performance levels. But we went from Geforce 3 to GeForce 6 series in that time. I guess we're a bit spoiled by easier early progress. Mobile vendors are fighting for cutting edge process tech space, new nodes are hideously expensive and not bringing nearly the same gains as previous ones, etc. Even CPU wise, yes Ryzen is exciting, and they're right there with or past Intel now, but more than anything it's 'moar cores', actual high end IPC in the 4-5Ghz range has been close to stagnant for ages, with extremely iterative improvement. Eg; I think a 4790k OC @ 4.8Ghz would run really close to a Ryzen2 at similar clocks per core. The Techspot comparison between 4770k and 8700k (stock!) showed between 1-18% improvement, and a lot of that was simply the higher stock clock speeds across cores and MCE.

I guess the bright side, to look at it another way, is that the upgrade treadmill has slowed down considerably. Someone with an OC 4790k and 1080/1080ti from 2016 has little reason to even care about new stuff unless they have money burning a hole in their pocket or just need extra cores for encoding/DC (which 95% of users don't do to be perfectly honest, in all my years of supporting thousands and thousands of end users, the absolute vast majority just game and/or do typical office workloads of Excel, Timeslips, Outlook, web, maybe some light Photoshop or something in rarer cases).

 

[Hans Gruber]

Around 2007-2008. Laptops received a 1080p decoding chip. Making integrated graphics easily capable of running 1080P youtube blu-ray movies and HD content quite easily. The discrete GPU's could decode all of the various formats but struggled in comparison because they used brute force. If there was a 4k decoding chip added to a RX570 or RX580 type card. That would crush a 1080ti in performance. An onboard chip that decodes 1440p and 4k would change everything for modern graphics cards. Currently GPU's are using brute force computing power.

The keep it simple approach is what is missing. 8k tv's are here. HDMI 2.1 is the next thing. Modern GPU's are not up to the task of 4K @ 120hz and 8K seems like a moon shot.

 

[DrMrLordX]

The vast majority of 5700's sold will be the non-XT variant. The Price : Performance is just way better with it.

Probably. It's possible that the 5700 will run at 5700XT speeds with a little bit of encouragement.

AMD would at least get the benefit of being the company that lowered prices first.

Indeed, and it would set them up well for next year when more Navi products hit the streets while NV has little to nothing for a counterattack.

Yesterday we had ASUS Strix 2070 for $450. Today we have Aftermarket EVGA B-Stock 2070 with 1 year warranty for $400. With prices like these NAVI is DOA.

https://www.evga.com/products/product.aspx?pn=08G-P4-2173-RX

We'll see if those prices keep up, but I do agree that it looks kinda bad for Navi. It's hard NOT to find a discounted 2070 or 2060 somewhere, every day of the week. If you want the deals, you can get them.

I never said the 2070 or 5700xt are ok value.

At least we agree on that.

I'm addressing what I think a lot of buyers are not doing, which is what you seem to be doing; looking at a company's progress of a product type, getting underwhelmed, and then using that as an argument for not choosing those products.

And I addressed that by saying, even if you ignore all the old cards like Vega and 1080/1080Ti, 2070 and 2060 still look really bad, bang-per-buck.

If a comparison of price/performance shows a 5700xt is the best value then a lot of buyers will choose that - regardless of AMD's history.

It won't, and they won't.

"Why not? I've got $450 to spend, and it's the best performing card for the money."

. . . seriously? No. More like, "I've got $200-$300 that I would prefer to spend on a video card. I'd prefer to avoid spending more than that because I'm not looking for something top-of-the line, and also, that's how much I spent on my CPU anyway. If I am going to spend more than this, it had better be for a big benefit."

The market for dGPU buyers above $300 is very small. If you do not have something compelling/interesting in that price bracket, then good luck. At least the margins are high, but still . . .

Out of more than 20 RTX 2070 on newegg, ALL but one are above $500.

https://pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#c=425&sort=price&page=1

There have been 2070s sitting at the $470 mark (or below!) for weeks. You might need rebate codes or mail-in rebates to get them at this price, but seriously, are you going to say "no" to that? And they aren't awful cards, either. Not like that one horrid Vega56 that everyone hates that has been below $300 for awhile now. It seems like sales volumes on the 2060 and 2070 are not that good because they are grossly overpriced. Gotta do something to move stock.

i thought we'd all learned you can't compare refurb/used/coupon/rebate pricing to MSRP. guess not.

I guess? If you are bringing a new product onto the market, you have to deal with street prices as they are. Retailors may have to discount the AMD products out of the gate if they don't move, making the MSRP 5700XT a non-existent entity.

 

[mattiasnyc]

And I addressed that by saying, even if you ignore all the old cards like Vega and 1080/1080Ti, 2070 and 2060 still look really bad, bang-per-buck.

That's not really addressing it so much as adding another argument the logic of which I don't disagree with. The original line of thought that I did address is still problematic, and that's all I was pointing out.

If a comparison of price/performance shows a 5700xt is the best value then a lot of buyers will choose that - regardless of AMD's history.

It won't, and they won't.

The key word is "if". I used that word to provide a hypothetical situation to show that the logic of your argument didn't really hold up in my view... or rather that it wasn't shared by all people.

"Why not? I've got $450 to spend, and it's the best performing card for the money."

. . . seriously? No. More like, "I've got $200-$300 that I would prefer to spend on a video card. I'd prefer to avoid spending more than that because I'm not looking for something top-of-the line, and also, that's how much I spent on my CPU anyway. If I am going to spend more than this, it had better be for a big benefit."

The market for dGPU buyers above $300 is very small. If you do not have something compelling/interesting in that price bracket, then good luck. At least the margins are high, but still

You seem to again miss the hypothetical. I'm still using the hypothetical that a person has a budget, is willing to spend X dollars and get the best value for that money. The specific amount is completely irrelevant to the point I'm making. It has absolutely zero to do with it. All the example is designed to do is illustrate how that first point I was addressing didn't make sense for all people.

 

[Thala]

The market for dGPU buyers above $300 is very small. If you do not have something compelling/interesting in that price bracket, then good luck. At least the margins are high, but still

I guess the correct statement would be "the market for dGPU buyers above $300 was very small". Since the price for mid-range products just shifted north of $300 it pulls the market segment along. With other words mid-range players will adapt to the new pricing structure.

 

[linkgoron]

Please, please, please, stop using TPU numbers.

They are easy to fathom, but are skewed, and mostly wrong. All of their performance numbers are vastly different from all other sites, which show similar results to each other.

Using computerbase's numbers, and using the 148% number, you get 11.2% better perf/watt than the Radeon 7 at 1440p (although R7 has 16GB HBM2 and isn't a full chip, so the comparison is not exact). Either way, those numbers are not that different from TPU's IMO, and either way are not that great for a new architecture (Navi is supposed to be a major redesign). It also means that Navi is still behind Pascal (somewhat significantly, the 1080FE has 1.68 better perf/watt than Vega 64 at 1440p according to Computerbase). Hopefully, Navi actually has better perf/watt than AMD said, and I also hope that we'll see some improvements to perf/watt down the road with better drivers.

 

[ElFenix]

making the MSRP 5700XT a non-existent entity.

which is exactly why you don't use MSRP for comparison

 

[maddie]

I guess the correct statement would be "the market for dGPU buyers above $300 was very small". Since the price for mid-range products just shifted north of $300 it pulls the market segment along. With other words mid-range players will adapt to the new pricing structure.

You always leak people when you do that. Companies would love that, but your user base falls with increased prices. It's not as if they're essential for life.

I for one am saying F... the higher prices. I live in the tropics with beautiful beaches, etc. Many other recreational opportunities. Try and squeeze too much out of me and bye bye.