[Rumor, Tweaktown] AMD to launch next-gen Navi graphics cards at E3

[mattiasnyc]

. . . really?

The 2070 is terrible, and targeting a terrible card is not a great idea, even if you beat it by a small margin on performance and price. Relying on uninformed buyers who also want to burn over $400 on a dGPU is a recipe for disaster. That cross-section of people is pretty small. If I'm blowing that much on a dGPU, I'm doing my research.

If that doesn't make any sense then I don't know what to tell you.

Follow the conversation please:

Me: "I'm addressing what I think a lot of buyers are not doing, which is what you seem to be doing; looking at a company's progress of a product type, getting underwhelmed, and then using that as an argument for not choosing those products"

You: "And I addressed that by saying, even if you ignore all the old cards like Vega and 1080/1080Ti, 2070 and 2060 still look really bad, bang-per-buck."

Me: "That's not really addressing it"

"it" referred to looking at the disappointing progress of a product type rather than the absolute value.

Now, again, I have to ask you the question: If a user wants the best performance possible, and has a limit to their budget at $450 for the GPU, and the best performing card for that amount of money (or less) is the new AMD card - why should they not buy that card?

I didn't see an answer to that before and I doubt I'll see it now.

 

[Auer]

AMD did the wise thing actually to forget about RT on small and medium Navi GPUs. Its a waste of silicon right now, because it hinders performance too much.

The only GPU that is worth buying for RT is RTX 2080 Ti.

Sales numbers will be the judge on that decision.

 

[Glo.]

Sales numbers will be the judge on that decision.

Has nothing to do with sales.

It baffles me that people buy into RTX marketing malarchy, when everything below RTX 2080 Ti requires you to lower the fidelity of your games, or make games completely unplayable if you run Ray Tracing.

If AMD would add Ray Tracing to Navi 10 and 14 I would point the same thing out, and point the same type of buyers out based on this.

It makes sense when it really makes games better from performance and IQ point of view. Otherwise it is complete gimmick, for the stupid.

Heck, IF I would be Nvidia, I would release only one Two RTX GPUs: RTX Titan, and RTX 2080 Ti. And for the rest of the GPUs I would not waste the silicon on not necessary stuff. At least it might have made them think about not pricing those GPUs as high, as they did.

 

[Guru]

Sales numbers will be the judge on that decision.

LOL. People who buy the RTX cards are NOT buying them for the RT gimmicks. They are buying them for I don't know what reason as of yet. the only cards that make sense to buy at these prices are the RTX 2060 and RTX 2080ti, since the 2060 is a good value and the 2080ti is the best card available.

Other than that it's all very expensive alternative Pascal versions.

 

[Glo.]

They are buying them for I don't know what reason as of yet.

Have you heard of rasterization, eh?

All of RTX GPUs have very good rasterization performance in their own class.

 

[ElFenix]

making the MSRP 5700XT a non-existent entity.

When was the last time a dGPU didn't sell at MSRP on launch day?

now you've got me thorougly confused as to whatever point you're trying to make.

 

[mohit9206]

LOL. People who buy the RTX cards are NOT buying them for the RT gimmicks. They are buying them for I don't know what reason as of yet. the only cards that make sense to buy at these prices are the RTX 2060 and RTX 2080ti, since the 2060 is a good value and the 2080ti is the best card available.

Other than that it's all very expensive alternative Pascal versions.

Nvidia RTX cards are terrible because of their price but consumer don't have a choice because AMD cannot compete. Some fencesitters were waiting on Navi to make a decision on which card to get but now it seems the choice is tilted towards Nvidia and rightfully so. 5700XT is dumpster fire at the current price but 5700 non XT could have been a good product at 349 but that extra 30 will be costly for AMD. Still AMD could always cut the price in a month or two and that would be great. Also i like the value of 3 months Xbox game Pass for PC bundled alongwith the 5700 and 5700XT. You could play a few games in the time and pretty much recoup the entire cost of the card than if one were to individually buy all games. But not everyone may see value in that.

 

[DeathReborn]

Crossing fingers something will be available around 150 watts. The 5700 might be too high in wattage. Noise is one of my main factors for me with computing. I want to match it with the Ryzen 3700x which is 65watts. Currently, I have a Haswell 4690 at 88watts, and a Radeon 480 at 150-165 watts and to be honest that is too loud for me. Granted my case sucks and lets a lot of noise through. I don't want to buy an Nvidia, but a 1660 or 2060 might be a better bet. I'm waiting for reviews to see.

AMD are profiling Navi at 43dB, for reference Anandtech put the 480 Reference at 50dB (TPU 41dB).

 

[mohit9206]

AMD E3 Full Analysis: Explaining how Navi can Fight RTX with Quality Features

Navi Didn't Ruin Price/Performance: It simply never mattered, but it CAN if you make it!

 

[beginner99]

I/O die on Matisse is GF 12nm. I/O on Rome is GF 14LPP. Or at least, I think it is. Anyway, AMD is not using TSMC for the I/O die yet.

I know but it still has a cost and the context of my comment was poster claiming Ryzen has much higher margin because chiplet is only 80mm2.

 

[amrnuke]

Nvidia RTX cards are terrible because of their price but consumer don't have a choice because AMD cannot compete. Some fencesitters were waiting on Navi to make a decision on which card to get but now it seems the choice is tilted towards Nvidia and rightfully so. 5700XT is dumpster fire at the current price but 5700 non XT could have been a good product at 349 but that extra 30 will be costly for AMD. Still AMD could always cut the price in a month or two and that would be great. Also i like the value of 3 months Xbox game Pass for PC bundled alongwith the 5700 and 5700XT. You could play a few games in the time and pretty much recoup the entire cost of the card than if one were to individually buy all games. But not everyone may see value in that.

I think we ought to wait for real head-to-head benchmarking from reliable sources before we claim the 5700XT is a "dumpster fire".

Hypotheticals, for gaming:

If 5700XT is 3-4% better than 2070 and the same price... why would anyone buy a 2070?
If 5700 is 3-4% faster than the Vega64 and $20 cheaper... why would anyone buy a Vega64?

The big question is what Nvidia has up their sleeve with SUPER. If they drop prices on non-super 2000 series, and slot a 2070 SUPER in at same price as current 2070, and it has even a 3-4% performance gain, it makes no sense to buy any of the AMD cards unless you are tied to Linux or have philosophical reasons.

 

[H T C]

A user @ TPU in this post suggested the prices are higher than expected because they include the tariffs already.

Dunno if this is true but, if it is, then the prices were actually "more decent" without the tariffs applied.

 

[mohit9206]

I think we ought to wait for real head-to-head benchmarking from reliable sources before we claim the 5700XT is a "dumpster fire".

Hypotheticals, for gaming:

If 5700XT is 3-4% better than 2070 and the same price... why would anyone buy a 2070?
If 5700 is 3-4% faster than the Vega64 and $20 cheaper... why would anyone buy a Vega64?

The big question is what Nvidia has up their sleeve with SUPER. If they drop prices on non-super 2000 series, and slot a 2070 SUPER in at same price as current 2070, and it has even a 3-4% performance gain, it makes no sense to buy any of the AMD cards unless you are tied to Linux or have philosophical reasons.

My disappointment stems mostly from the fact that amd have chosen to rip off gamers like Nvidia did rather than move the industry forward in terms of price and performance. I know the amd cards are competitive and perhaps better value than Nvidia but they are all still terrible value for gamers because of the companies taking advantage of the situation.
However you could look at it different way, 5700 non XT at 380 is almost equal to 600 dollar launch price of 2070 founders edition. (RIP to those who paid 600 for 2070). That seems like a pretty good progress if u look at it from a twisted point of view.

 

[Head1985]

My disappointment stems mostly from the fact that amd have chosen to rip off gamers like Nvidia did rather than move the industry forward in terms of price and performance. I know the amd cards are competitive and perhaps better value than Nvidia but they are all still terrible value for gamers because of the companies taking advantage of the situation.
However you could look at it different way, 5700 non XT at 380 is almost equal to 600 dollar launch price of 2070 founders edition. (RIP to those who paid 600 for 2070). That seems like a pretty good progress if u look at it from a twisted point of view.

yep with navi AMD confirmed that they will milk customers just like nvidia and they moved midrange to 380- 450usd.Most people dont even realise that AMD just doubled price on midrange SKU.Polaris launched at 170/240usd for rx470/480

Edit:If someone think navi is not midrange just look how much faster is 5700xt vs vega64?10-15%???Is 10-15% generational leap we have waiting 2 years?No its not becuase its polaris replacement.Versus rx480 its 2x faster.First time since hawaii they did significant changes to GCN + they moved to new 7nm and bum we have 2x performance vs polaris.
Problem is they also doubled the price

 

[Glo.]

 

[DownTheSky]

Good talk. There's hoping for better power efficiency in the future for Navi, now that Samsung is involved.

 

[Glo.]

Good talk. There's hoping for better power efficiency in the future for Navi, now that Samsung is involved.

Partially. EUV addition to any process will lower the power consumption of any GPU. N7 is not suitable for anything big.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Now, again, I have to ask you the question: If a user wants the best performance possible, and has a limit to their budget at $450 for the GPU, and the best performing card for that amount of money (or less) is the new AMD card - why should they not buy that card?

THAT USER DOES NOT EXIST.

The number of people with $450 to burn on a dGPU that will not know about previous generations of cards is tiny. They will learn as soon as they do benchmark research and see these things called the 1070, 1080, and 1080Ti being in benchmarks. They'll learn when someone benches the 5700Xt against RX Vega 64. They will know. The situation you describe is not going to happen. You don't spend that much on a product for your PC without at least reading a few benchmarks.

Furthermore, they will look at the 1660Ti in the same benchmarks, see the 5700 and 5700XT compared to it, and then compare the prices and realize, "hey, I am paying all this extra money, and I am getting very little in return for it. That's bad bang-per-buck". Then they will get angry like @AtenRa and wait for Xbox2 or PS5.

now you've got me thorougly confused as to whatever point you're trying to make.

Let me start over.

a). we know the street prices for the 5700 and 5700XT's competitors now.
b). we know only the MSRP for 5700 and 5700XT.
c). we can look at the history of every card released within n years (let's go back to 1080Ti launch; that still defines the market).

Of all the cards released since the 1080Ti hit the streets, have any of them gone below their launch MSRP within 3 months? With or without mining affecting prices. Honest question, but I'm guessing "no".

All green cards since the 10xx series ?

Make all the reviewers write MSRP price in their review of the card, and sell them yourself for MSRP+100$ a couple of months before the AIB get their cards released at the "MSRP"

Hah, okay, you win there! And AMD is selling that 50th anniversary edition of the 5700XT for some extra dosh, no?

 

[swilli89]

yep with navi AMD confirmed that they will milk customers just like nvidia and they moved midrange to 380- 450usd.Most people dont even realise that AMD just doubled price on midrange SKU.Polaris launched at 170/240usd for rx470/480

Edit:If someone think navi is not midrange just look how much faster is 5700xt vs vega64?10-15%???Is 10-15% generational leap we have waiting 2 years?No its not becuase its polaris replacement.Versus rx480 its 2x faster.First time since hawaii they did significant changes to GCN + they moved to new 7nm and bum we have 2x performance vs polaris.
Problem is they also doubled the price

I am disappointed by Navi's price. They slightly undercut NVIDIA, but NVIDIA was charging too much as it was.

At 251 mm2 Navi is a small die. AMD should have come out at $250/350 (down from $380/450) with these and actually gave consumers more bang for their buck.

I was waiting for Navi but after I saw this, I went out and found a used 1070 Ti for $200. Luckily I live in a big city and craigslist always has good deals on cards (probably old miner cards - I don't care). I know it's unfair and impossible to compare used second-hand to new MSRP releases... but AMD really overshot on price here. But.. they had to assume NVIDIA would reply so we might get a few months at these prices before AMD decides to cut prices too.

 

[DarthKyrie]

A user @ TPU in this post suggested the prices are higher than expected because they include the tariffs already.

Dunno if this is true but, if it is, then the prices were actually "more decent" without the tariffs applied.

This right here wouldn't surprise me in the least. People need to remember that here in the United States there is a 25% tariff being applied to the price of the product. Do the people complaining about the price expect AMD to eat the tariff?

 

[DrMrLordX]

I am disappointed by Navi's price. They slightly undercut NVIDIA, but NVIDIA was charging too much as it was.

You have captured my feelings perfectly.

 

[swilli89]

This right here wouldn't surprise me in the least. People need to remember that here in the United States there is a 25% tariff being applied to the price of the product. Do the people complaining about the price expect AMD to eat the tariff?

Well to start AMD sells chips to AIB vendors. Unless they (the AIB vendors) are assembling them in China then tariffs won't apply. This is probably a non-existent issue.

 

[gorobei]

A user @ TPU in this post suggested the prices are higher than expected because they include the tariffs already.

Dunno if this is true but, if it is, then the prices were actually "more decent" without the tariffs applied.

This right here wouldn't surprise me in the least. People need to remember that here in the United States there is a 25% tariff being applied to the price of the product. Do the people complaining about the price expect AMD to eat the tariff?

gamers nexus covered this a bit ago, most of the oems have facilities in vietnam and taiwan which they can make the official "production" location and thereby skirt the china tariff on the stockpiles they built up after the first wave of tariffs, but eventually they will have to relocate actual production to those countries which will be a big expenditure which will eventually be passed on to the consumer. so they avoid the tariff fee but will still have to raise costs, thus they will be able to avoid any future trade war nonsense. after the inital expenditure is amortized they can get costs back down.

 

[DrMrLordX]

I think my X370 Taichi has a "made in Vietnam" stamp on the CPU socket. They've been a "cheap" alternative to "expensive" Chinese labor for awhile now.

 

[soresu]

A bit surprised that AMD had nothing for RT at this launch tbh.

It does indeed seem like it's here to stay, and I dont think AMD should wait too long.

Its not that mindblowing compared to state of the art PBR raster graphics, theres still some life in that yet - to say nothing of the fact that the next gen consoles that use it won't even be out till mid-late next year - which is when the lions share of new RT enhanced games will start coming out, by which time I'd expect RDNA 2/Arcturus to be on the market with at least some RT acceleration baked in.