[Rumor, Tweaktown] AMD to launch next-gen Navi graphics cards at E3

[soresu]

It makes sense when it really makes games better from performance and IQ point of view. Otherwise it is complete gimmick, for the stupid.

I'd agree with the gimmick part, at least where super glossy RT reflections are concerned, however the performance part is a rocky issue to talk around - people have always been willing to shelve some performance for better IQ, depending on the context.

Obviously in a fast paced game, you want absolute performance above all, but with a slow paced game - ie Quantic Dreams fare - you want to appreciate the visuals as much as possible.

Ideally RT would have been introduced when we can have both, I'm a bit perplexed why nVidia jumped the gun - maybe they know something we don't about AMD's plans, because RTX pricing hasn't done them any favors to those I know that buy nVidia as a rule.

 

[mattiasnyc]

THAT USER DOES NOT EXIST.

The number of people with $450 to burn on a dGPU that will not know about previous generations of cards is tiny. They will learn as soon as they do benchmark research and see these things called the 1070, 1080, and 1080Ti being in benchmarks. They'll learn when someone benches the 5700Xt against RX Vega 64. They will know. The situation you describe is not going to happen. You don't spend that much on a product for your PC without at least reading a few benchmarks.

Furthermore, they will look at the 1660Ti in the same benchmarks, see the 5700 and 5700XT compared to it, and then compare the prices and realize, "hey, I am paying all this extra money, and I am getting very little in return for it. That's bad bang-per-buck". Then they will get angry like @AtenRa and wait for Xbox2 or PS5.

There are two possible options at this point - logically speaking:

1) Nobody will ever buy any video card priced at $450. No sales for Nvidia. No sales for AMD.... or
2) You don't know a) what the word "if" implies, and b) what a "hypothetical" is.

I've tried to explain it to you multiple times and you keep failing at understanding the above, so I'm not sure we'll get any further.

 

[mattiasnyc]

My disappointment stems mostly from the fact that amd have chosen to rip off gamers like Nvidia did rather than move the industry forward in terms of price and performance. I know the amd cards are competitive and perhaps better value than Nvidia but they are all still terrible value for gamers because of the companies taking advantage of the situation.

I take it it's accurate to say you're not a capitalist then? Because that's how the capitalist market works.

 

[Thala]

Its not that mindblowing compared to state of the art PBR raster graphics, theres still some life in that yet - to say nothing of the fact that the next gen consoles that use it won't even be out till mid-late next year - which is when the lions share of new RT enhanced games will start coming out, by which time I'd expect RDNA 2/Arcturus to be on the market with at least some RT acceleration baked in.

Yup RDNA 2 need to have some RT HW acceleration - however its quite late by then, when even the consoles have realtime raytracing HW acceleration. Before we have quite a few games with raytracing released, most notably Cyberpunk 2077, Watch Dogs: Legion, Control (new Remedy title), Call of Duty: Modern Warfare, Wolfenstein: Youngblood. Infact Wolfenstein features both raytracing and variable rate shading - both features notably absent from Navi.

And then of course, Navi can only be considered a stopgap product until the real thing is going to be released next year with full realtime raytracing acceleration. So people who are buying Navi now are supposed to upgrade next year again?

 

[Thala]

Obviously in a fast paced game, you want absolute performance above all, but with a slow paced game - ie Quantic Dreams fare - you want to appreciate the visuals as much as possible.

Ideally RT would have been introduced when we can have both, I'm a bit perplexed why nVidia jumped the gun - maybe they know something we don't about AMD's plans, because RTX pricing hasn't done them any favors to those I know that buy nVidia as a rule.

Thing is, with raytracing it is not really different compared to other IQ enhancing options like higher resolution relative to performance. You always trade one against the other, you will never have the choice of having both without limits.
Besides what other options are left to improve IQ? Going to 8k resolution and still have no proper global illumination or continue living with ugly screenspace effects? I am sure you can easily burn the GPU performance increase of the next few year into 8k resolution without any real IQ gain.

 

[Zstream]

Yup RDNA 2 need to have some RT HW acceleration - however its quite late by then, when even the consoles have realtime raytracing HW acceleration. Before we have quite a few games with raytracing released, most notably Cyberpunk 2077, Watch Dogs: Legion, Control (new Remedy title), Call of Duty: Modern Warfare, Wolfenstein: Youngblood. Infact Wolfenstein features both raytracing and variable rate shading - both features notably absent from Navi.

And then of course, Navi can only be considered a stopgap product until the real thing is going to be released next year with full realtime raytracing acceleration. So people who are buying Navi now are supposed to upgrade next year again?

Yup, sadly it is a short-term product. However, anything now, outside of the 2080, generally sucks at RT. Just play games without it, and you’re just fine. After all, who is going to continue purchasing video cards that exceed the cost of a nice console. Those days will shortly be over.

 

[Zstream]

Thing is, with raytracing it is not really different compared to other IQ enhancing options like higher resolution relative to performance. You always trade one against the other, you will never have the choice of having both without limits.
Besides what other options are left to improve IQ? Going to 8k resolution and still have no proper global illumination or continue living with ugly screenspace effects? I am sure you can easily burn the GPU performance increase of the next few year into 8k resolution without any real IQ gain.

I’ll take physx over RT any day. When RT hardware is capable, it will be 6 years down the line with the launch of a new console. No need to buy hardware that is incapable of delivering.

 

[Ajay]

Partially. EUV addition to any process will lower the power consumption of any GPU. N7 is not suitable for anything big.

IIRC, it’s ~20% power reduction at ISO frequency. Nothing to write home about, but it will help a bit. The problem with 7N+ is that it uses an different PDK (and, obviously needs new masks for at least the EUV exposures).

 

[GoodRevrnd]

So isn't ray tracing confirmed on the next XBox which would be Navi based in some way? So when exactly would AMD be slipping this feature into the PC product stack? Big Navi feature? 5700's aren't "real" Navi?

https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/9/1...box-hardware-specs-price-release-date-e3-2019

 

[railven]

I’ll take physx over RT any day. When RT hardware is capable, it will be 6 years down the line with the launch of a new console. No need to buy hardware that is incapable of delivering.

Why not have both!?

Anyone try the Quake 2 RTX demo thingy? I was playing it and showed it to the wife. She thought it was amazing. While I was playing it I realized something...

It ran terribly. I was getting like 30 FPS (though right now my system is in "throttle" mode so perhaps I can get 35 FPS? haha) @ 3440x1440. It looked wonderful, but that frame rate. Then I didn't realize the frame rate and forgot just how much fun simple shooters were. I beat the first 3 levels without noticing it. At some point I became an FPS junkie and not a game-play fanatic. Beside all that, dropping down to 2560x1080 gave me ~60 FPS with barely any notice in IQ drop. (Although I guess having G-sync monitor, the 50-60 FPS range didn't bother me much, but the 20-30 FPS range was definitely noticeable haha).

This isn't a 1:1 example, but once you see RT in a good scene, you're kind of sold on it. Now I'm not expecting to crush any game with RT on, but I'm happy I have the option. And if it takes you 6 years to get there, I hope you also have a smile like I did.

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that RT isn't there yet, but it's still pretty cool and I welcome more games with it, hopefully more slow-pace scene driven games versus shooters.

 

[Auer]

Its not that mindblowing compared to state of the art PBR raster graphics, theres still some life in that yet - to say nothing of the fact that the next gen consoles that use it won't even be out till mid-late next year - which is when the lions share of new RT enhanced games will start coming out, by which time I'd expect RDNA 2/Arcturus to be on the market with at least some RT acceleration baked in.

There seems to be a decent amount of RTX games in the not so far future. I would think that if one was interested in any of these titles Navi might not be the best choice.

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2019/06/11/nvidia-rtx-ray-tracing-dlss-games-confirmed-2/

 

[Shivansps]

Cyberpunk 2077 will support RTX, that alone may push me over to Nvidia, but i just dont think the 2060 can handle it. Dont understimate the impact of Cyberpunk 2077 supporting RTX. This is not Battlefield V that was a failure.

I expected AMD to provide a good value for money here, the RX480 8GB launched at $199 back in 2016... That was excellent value for the money at that time, and still Nvidia did retain a huge lead in market share. Also, the RX480 launched ahead of competition by a month or so, Nvidia had to hurry up the GTX1060. And i did brought a RX480 when they launched.

Now the RX5700XT is actually replacing the RX580, Navi 10 = Polaris 10, Navi 10 launching at $450, more than double the launch price of a RX480, for what reason? because it is beating RTX2070? The RX480 was beating the GTX970 as well at the time of launch, well it was close, but as thing are now it is the same for RX5700XT vs RTX2070.

There is no way to justify this increase in prices, i did not expected a $199 price tag for the top navi 10 but this was worse than the PS3 at $599.

And before some people start spitting justifications for what cant be justified AT ALL, think for a moment of what Sony and Microsoft will be getting at a bargain price... the new consoles will probably cost the same as the RX5700XT.

 

[soresu]

Besides what other options are left to improve IQ? Going to 8k resolution and still have no proper global illumination or continue living with ugly screenspace effects? I am sure you can easily burn the GPU performance increase of the next few year into 8k resolution without any real IQ gain.

I think the 'burn' won't be as much an issue for VR use cases, I expect the next gen of VR headsets to employ eye tracking for foveated rendering techniques.

According to Oculus Research, this could mean rendering only as much as 5% total pixels at a given resolution, and then filling in the spaces between sparsely rendered periphery pixels with an ML/AI net algorithm.

Even rendering at 7680x4320 per eye, that only runs to about 3.3 megapixels (1.5x 1080p) - which is quite achievable with todays cards as Crytek has shown recently.

Obviously this doesn't apply to a TV where you cant use foveated rendering, but does anyone really think that 8K will be a benefit when you will need a 100 inch TV atleast to see the difference from 4K?

 

[soresu]

There seems to be a decent amount of RTX games in the not so far future. I would think that if one was interested in any of these titles Navi might not be the best choice.

The question isn't just do games use RT, but does it look much worse with only raster graphics employed.

In this regard, I would not at all be surprised to hear that nVidia have tried to stack the odds against nVidia by spreading the money around on RTX marketing and emphasizing RT to developers, with the proviso of lessening raster IQ.

Considering nVidia have been shown in the past to let cards of even the last generation go unoptimised for new games in order to boost sales of the newer cards, I would not at all be surprised to see them attempt to take an aggressively anti raster strategy with game dev relationships - though obviously any games that have to run on the current consoles will still need to be as good as possible with raster, so admittedly this does seem like it would be a fine line to tread.

The marketing nVidia lately did for their Quake 2 RTX 'remaster' heavily emphasized the path traced version of it, but the comparison shots showed the original non-PBR game engine, with what looked like the original textures, and not the upgraded ones with normal and roughness maps - this is the sort of anti raster marketing I am talking about.

 

[IntelUser2000]

Cyberpunk 2077 will support RTX, that alone may push me over to Nvidia, but i just dont think the 2060 can handle it. Dont understimate the impact of Cyberpunk 2077 supporting RTX. This is not Battlefield V that was a failure.

Two doubts in my mind.

The game seems extremely ambitious. Sure, they've been working on it a long time, but looks like the team needs everything to get it out even by next year. Will they really get it by April 2020?

Whether current RTX cards can run them. Maybe we'll need the 2nd gen ones in 2020 to run them, and with x70 or x80 cards.

 

[Shivansps]

Two doubts in my mind.

The game seems extremely ambitious. Sure, they've been working on it a long time, but looks like the team needs everything to get it out even by next year. Will they really get it by April 2020?

Whether current RTX cards can run them. Maybe we'll need the 2nd gen ones in 2020 to run them, and with x70 or x80 cards.

Thats easy, if Witcher 3 is any indication, it may get delayed for a few months, but it will launch in 2020. They are pre-selling now, they dont have too big of a window to delay the game.

As for current RTX, i belive the 2080TI to be able to handle it with the 2080 as a maybe, but im not going to buy that. So yeah im kinda waiting to see what Nvidia does now, there is still time to 2020. Im not interested in navi unless there is very significant drop in prices.

 

[Veradun]

IIRC, it’s ~20% power reduction at ISO frequency. Nothing to write home about, but it will help a bit. The problem with 7N+ is that it uses an different PDK (and, obviously needs new masks for at least the EUV exposures).

Hasn't N6 been created to gain the power advantage without redesign? (same as GF's 14nm->12nm)

 

[SPBHM]

So isn't ray tracing confirmed on the next XBox which would be Navi based in some way? So when exactly would AMD be slipping this feature into the PC product stack? Big Navi feature? 5700's aren't "real" Navi?

https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/9/1...box-hardware-specs-price-release-date-e3-2019

they are working on it no doubt, it just seems like the current PC Navi is not exactly the same Navi to be used on the new Xbox next year.

 

[IntelUser2000]

Thats easy, if Witcher 3 is any indication, it may get delayed for a few months, but it will launch in 2020. They are pre-selling now, they dont have too big of a window to delay the game.

The scale between Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk 2077 is completely different.

Ok, the delay wasn't bad. It happened twice. Q3 2014 to Feb 2015, then it finally released in May of 2015.

I'm not expecting much from next gen RTX cards. The biggest boost will be with the ray tracing cores. The "full node" processes are really half nodes now in terms of density and perf/power improvements.

 

[AtenRa]

Cyberpunk 2077 will support RTX, that alone may push me over to Nvidia, but i just dont think the 2060 can handle it. Dont understimate the impact of Cyberpunk 2077 supporting RTX. This is not Battlefield V that was a failure.

I expected AMD to provide a good value for money here, the RX480 8GB launched at $199 back in 2016... That was excellent value for the money at that time, and still Nvidia did retain a huge lead in market share. Also, the RX480 launched ahead of competition by a month or so, Nvidia had to hurry up the GTX1060. And i did brought a RX480 when they launched.

Now the RX5700XT is actually replacing the RX580, Navi 10 = Polaris 10, Navi 10 launching at $450, more than double the launch price of a RX480, for what reason? because it is beating RTX2070? The RX480 was beating the GTX970 as well at the time of launch, well it was close, but as thing are now it is the same for RX5700XT vs RTX2070.

There is no way to justify this increase in prices, i did not expected a $199 price tag for the top navi 10 but this was worse than the PS3 at $599.

And before some people start spitting justifications for what cant be justified AT ALL, think for a moment of what Sony and Microsoft will be getting at a bargain price... the new consoles will probably cost the same as the RX5700XT.

Just a small correction , RX480 4GB launched at $199 and RX480 8GB at $239.

I agree they almost doubled the price of Polaris 10 with NAVI 10.

perf/$ in GPUs the last 2-3 years is getting worst and worst.

 

[Head1985]

Just a small correction , RX480 4GB launched at $199 and RX480 8GB at $239.

I agree they almost doubled the price of Polaris 10 with NAVI 10.

perf/$ in GPUs the last 2-3 years is getting worst and worst.

Its because Nvidia rising prices because they dont have any competition at launch(pascal, turing) and then AMD show up after 1-2years with same performance for same price(vega, radeon7,rx5700xt).Its price fixing.

Edit:look how much NV charge more for x70 cards:
GTX970-330usd(340-350usd AIB at launch) last time x70 card have competition(290) at launch and price was ok.
GTX1070-450USD(440-470usd AIB at launch) no competition at all untill 2years later with vega with same price
RTX2070-500-600(500-600AIB at launch) no competition at all at launch untill 1year later with rx5700xt and again same price.
AMD clearly just matching Nv prices no matter what crazy overpriced shit NV releasing.I bet if next time Nv realease x60 card at 1000usd amd will show up after 1-2years and price match them.
I can already see it:Nv will release 3060/4060 for 1000usd.AMD show up after 1 year with 5% faster card and "undercut" nv by 50usd and they will say something like this:look we are faster and cheaper we are best bank for buck
GPU market need intel ASAP because both AMD and NV want only one thing: milking pc gamers nothing more.Competition dont work at all.

 

[beginner99]

Do the people complaining about the price expect AMD to eat the tariff?

Do you expect people in EU willing to pay more for tariffs not relevant to them? Do you expect these to cost $50 less in EU?

Obviously clearly no to both. Cards here always cost more than US msrp at release. hence I expect it to cost $500 here at release. Given the performance which was to be had years ago, anything above $350 is a rip-off and yeah this applies to NV too.

In another thread someone mentioned this:

In 2020 the most desired gaming PC will have an AMD CPU and Intel GPU.

We are very close to that becoming reality. The irony.

 

[coercitiv]

This right here wouldn't surprise me in the least. People need to remember that here in the United States there is a 25% tariff being applied to the price of the product. Do the people complaining about the price expect AMD to eat the tariff?

Do products currently being sold on Newegg include the 25% tariff as well?

 

[Krteq]

3 of them have been returned, that's why are they so cheap... you know "Open Box:"

//EDIT: New entries for GFX 1011/1012 in AMDGPU LLVM Git...

GFX1011 has a sparse set of entries for errors with some instructions and little documentation. I suppose it'd be fun to mention a few lines here:

image_bvh_intersect_ray v[4:7], v[9:24], s[4:7]
// GFX10: error:

image_bvh_intersect_ray v[4:7], v[9:16], s[4:7] a16
// GFX10: error:

image_bvh64_intersect_ray v[4:7], v[9:24], s[4:7]
// GFX10: error:

image_bvh64_intersect_ray v[4:7], v[9:24], s[4:7] a16

B3D forums / LLVM - [AMDGPU] gfx1011/gfx1012 targets - GitHub

 

[Glo.]

IIRC, it’s ~20% power reduction at ISO frequency. Nothing to write home about, but it will help a bit. The problem with 7N+ is that it uses an different PDK (and, obviously needs new masks for at least the EUV exposures).

I want to see how it reacts with bigger dies. Is it suitable for bigger dies?

Remember guys, SS7N EUV is the process that most likely Nvidia will use and AMD has the flexibility of using alongside of TSMC's N7 EUV.

Ampere will be released in 8-10 months time, with HPC GPU first, followed by consumer GPUs.