[Rumor, Tweaktown] AMD to launch next-gen Navi graphics cards at E3

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railven

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Mar 25, 2010
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video that looks at Radeon Image Sharpening


Woof. As I predicted in motion this looks awful, at least when thrown through more image altering such as Youtube compression. I'd have to see this is in person. These are the kind of anomalies I predicted, with edges being sharpened it creates thicker borders and in motion would result in more jaggies. And whatever is happening in the water, I'd rather just not bother with it.

If I had to guess, this is a request from Google for Stadia. They're going to be using low native rendering upscaled to whatever output the user selects. They're gonna need all the IQ fixing they can get.

EDIT: All that noise in the BF5 forest scene! Why are both these companies in a race to degrade IQ!? I was only kidding when I said the future is streaming. I shed a tear for the old days of GPU reviews that featured IQ testing. Nowadays, these reviewers all have their faces in their cell phones streaming 480p upscaled to whatever resolution their phone is (data caps, man data caps!) and they think it's "crystal clear!"

I can't wait for my eye sight to completely go. Then I can be all "hey fellow kids"

EDIT #2: Oh god, this is gonna be in next gen consoles too! How else are they going to get the 4k@60 they've been promising since the mid-cycle refresh. They came up with some interesting upscaling formulas and this is just going to be the cherry on top.

Breaking news: Railven yells at clouds!
 
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Paul98

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Jan 31, 2010
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I would be interested to see what resolution scale + image sharpening to get best results at each native resolution for minimal IQ loss but good performance boost.
 

maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
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Because of the scenes being enevenly rendered between hardware sides(One side(!) of scene can have more geometry and other can have more compute), you cannot make load balancing properly, that is why you will not have perfect scalability of work scheduled between GPUs in multi-GPU configuration. In current state of software, and that includes EVERY SINGLE PART OF IT, even the OS, Chiplet GPUs will be seen as Multi GPU configuration, not one gigantic GPU, even if they will be connected through fabric, or any other internal connection. And we do even exclude the matter of latency which is extremely important for graphics.

Again, we are talking about graphics purposes. It is not a problem for compute. But for graphics, that is no go.
I hope you can realize that you ignored everything in your reply to the post that I wrote? Really, MGPU? Strawman argument indeed.
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
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I hope you can realize that you ignored everything in your reply to the post that I wrote? Really, MGPU? Strawman argument indeed.
The funniest part is that I am not arguing with you. I am adding to what you have written. Second funniest part. I have not ignored anything from what you have written .

All I want. Lets be realistic about the concept of chiplets. They are future, but very far future. What will happen in nearest future: increased GPU prices, for smaller, and smaller dies.
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
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Yeah it's not that they would be making multiple GPUs strapping them together, it would be a single GPU that is broken up into pieces.
 
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Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
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Woof. As I predicted in motion this looks awful, at least when thrown through more image altering such as Youtube compression. I'd have to see this is in person. These are the kind of anomalies I predicted, with edges being sharpened it creates thicker borders and in motion would result in more jaggies. And whatever is happening in the water, I'd rather just not bother with it.

If I had to guess, this is a request from Google for Stadia. They're going to be using low native rendering upscaled to whatever output the user selects. They're gonna need all the IQ fixing they can get.

EDIT: All that noise in the BF5 forest scene! Why are both these companies in a race to degrade IQ!? I was only kidding when I said the future is streaming. I shed a tear for the old days of GPU reviews that featured IQ testing. Nowadays, these reviewers all have their faces in their cell phones streaming 480p upscaled to whatever resolution their phone is (data caps, man data caps!) and they think it's "crystal clear!"

I can't wait for my eye sight to completely go. Then I can be all "hey fellow kids"

EDIT #2: Oh god, this is gonna be in next gen consoles too! How else are they going to get the 4k@60 they've been promising since the mid-cycle refresh. They came up with some interesting upscaling formulas and this is just going to be the cherry on top.

Breaking news: Railven yells at clouds!

What res were you watching this on? Watching it at 4k, there is only minor differences between the two in the forest scene. Any noise that I see is on both sides, meaning its from video compression.
 

amrnuke

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2019
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Just to point out... looking at navi diagrams, each Navi "Cluster" seems very independent of each other, each cluster even looks to have it's own memory controller
The Navi layout is really not much different from Nvidia's Turing or Pascal.

It seems easy enough. Everyone is bringing up having the game/OS see the multiple chiplets as one GPU, which is somewhat child's play. Each CU on Navi has 64 stream processors, 2 scalar processors, 4 filter units, etc - and there are 40 CU on each GPU, so making it "look" seamless wouldn't be hard since the 2560+ different processors already on the Navi10 are currently seen as one unit. Obfuscating the fact that an extra 2560 stream processors are on a different chiplet shouldn't be hard as long as there is still a single I/O over PCIe. However, it's probably NOT that easy. Fury X2 didn't exactly destroy Nvidia. I really have no idea why 2Fast2FuryX had trouble with this, perhaps someone smarter could contribute.

It seems like having an interposer would be a great idea for increasing bandwidth, but I'm sure if it were that easy, it would have been done already. After all, AMD had an interposer to allow for 4096-wide bandwidth on Fiji, so it's not like they don't have the experience with high-bandwidth communication and chiplet design to make it happen.

Long story short, we're only seeing bits and pieces. The reality is far more complex.
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,759
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The Navi layout is really not much different from Nvidia's Turing or Pascal.

It seems easy enough. Everyone is bringing up having the game/OS see the multiple chiplets as one GPU, which is somewhat child's play. Each CU on Navi has 64 stream processors, 2 scalar processors, 4 filter units, etc - and there are 40 CU on each GPU, so making it "look" seamless wouldn't be hard since the 2560+ different processors already on the Navi10 are currently seen as one unit. Obfuscating the fact that an extra 2560 stream processors are on a different chiplet shouldn't be hard as long as there is still a single I/O over PCIe. However, it's probably NOT that easy. Fury X2 didn't exactly destroy Nvidia. I really have no idea why 2Fast2FuryX had trouble with this, perhaps someone smarter could contribute.

It seems like having an interposer would be a great idea for increasing bandwidth, but I'm sure if it were that easy, it would have been done already. After all, AMD had an interposer to allow for 4096-wide bandwidth on Fiji, so it's not like they don't have the experience with high-bandwidth communication and chiplet design to make it happen.

Long story short, we're only seeing bits and pieces. The reality is far more complex.
If it would be so easy, why wasn't anybody doing this for years, since yielding smaller dies was always cheaper than big dies?

Why dual Graphics never were treated as single GPU, if it would be so easy?
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
What res were you watching this on? Watching it at 4k, there is only minor differences between the two in the forest scene. Any noise that I see is on both sides, meaning its from video compression.

4K. If you can't see the noise, power to you. I also mention I'd rather see it in person. But that video does it no justice. There is more noise, jaggies, and odd anomalies on the side with RIS on. Like DLSS, a feature I'd probably never touch unless required.
 

Bouowmx

Golden Member
Nov 13, 2016
1,139
550
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One can read NVIDIA's research and simulation on MCM.
Inter-module bandwidth would have to be 2x DRAM bandwidth for 95% scaling (or less than 5% slowdown compared to 8x inter-module : DRAM bandwidth). Otherwise, scaling would fall to ~80%.
Don't know about TB/s level interconnect today.
 

guachi

Senior member
Nov 16, 2010
761
415
136
Woof. As I predicted in motion this looks awful, at least when thrown through more image altering such as Youtube compression. I'd have to see this is in person. These are the kind of anomalies I predicted, with edges being sharpened it creates thicker borders and in motion would result in more jaggies. And whatever is happening in the water, I'd rather just not bother with it.

If I had to guess, this is a request from Google for Stadia. They're going to be using low native rendering upscaled to whatever output the user selects. They're gonna need all the IQ fixing they can get.

EDIT: All that noise in the BF5 forest scene! Why are both these companies in a race to degrade IQ!? I was only kidding when I said the future is streaming. I shed a tear for the old days of GPU reviews that featured IQ testing. Nowadays, these reviewers all have their faces in their cell phones streaming 480p upscaled to whatever resolution their phone is (data caps, man data caps!) and they think it's "crystal clear!"

I can't wait for my eye sight to completely go. Then I can be all "hey fellow kids"

EDIT #2: Oh god, this is gonna be in next gen consoles too! How else are they going to get the 4k@60 they've been promising since the mid-cycle refresh. They came up with some interesting upscaling formulas and this is just going to be the cherry on top.

Breaking news: Railven yells at clouds!

When I got to the first section of image comparisons I thought it looked like hot garbage. Then I noticed he was showing DLSS. Wow. First time I've seen DLSS in action. At least AMD's image sharpening isn't as atrocious as that.

I suspect that it'll be used in the consoles so they can be "4k" without actually being 4k.
 

maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
4,787
4,771
136
If it would be so easy, why wasn't anybody doing this for years, since yielding smaller dies was always cheaper than big dies?

Why dual Graphics never were treated as single GPU, if it would be so easy?
And why is it only now that we have Zen with Intel racing to catch up?

Answer that & you'll be able to understand part of the reason why your question is a bit disingenuous.

To your second part as admittedly a mediocre example, the Voodoo 1 & 2. Remember them?
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,759
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And why is it only now that we have Zen with Intel racing to catch up?

Answer that & you'll be able to understand part of the reason why your question is a bit disingenuous.

To your second part as admittedly a mediocre example, the Voodoo 1 & 2. Remember them?
Uhhhh...

You do not see the difference between CPU being a chiplet based and GPU being a chiplet based...?

We have had in previous years: Fury X2, R9 295X2. In some games only ONE GPU of the two was seen. Why they have never been seen as single GPU, but two separate GPUs?

And why at the same time those GPUs were able to scale perfectly in anything COMPUTE oriented?

So let me ask again. Why, if it would be so easy, has never been done before for games?
 

DeathReborn

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 2005
2,755
751
136
Uhhhh...

You do not see the difference between CPU being a chiplet based and GPU being a chiplet based...?

We have had in previous years: Fury X2, R9 295X2. In some games only ONE GPU of the two was seen. Why they have never been seen as single GPU, but two separate GPUs?

And why at the same time those GPUs were able to scale perfectly in anything COMPUTE oriented?

So let me ask again. Why, if it would be so easy, has never been done before for games?

To be fair though the X2 cards were just re-using single chip GPU's and not bespoke designs like the chiplets, I'm not saying it can be done easily, just that you can't really compare the setups. Can a Zen2 chiplet function on its own without the I/O die?
 
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maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
4,787
4,771
136
Uhhhh...

You do not see the difference between CPU being a chiplet based and GPU being a chiplet based...?

We have had in previous years: Fury X2, R9 295X2. In some games only ONE GPU of the two was seen. Why they have never been seen as single GPU, but two separate GPUs?

And why at the same time those GPUs were able to scale perfectly in anything COMPUTE oriented?

So let me ask again. Why, if it would be so easy, has never been done before for games?
Don't keep making up strawman arguments.

Nobody ever said it would be "easy", just like how the IF in Zen is integral to its success, versus the old way of using the CPU bus as the communication pathway. The time has come for new things. Using the "if it was easy, it would already be done" argument makes it seem that there should never be any further advances, but as we all should know, everything is hard when first done. The Wright brothers, the 4 minute mile, 1st heart transplant, ad infinitum.

And, nobody says MGPU, but you keep arguing the point as if they do.

I say 'A' but you keep arguing that 'B' is wrong. Mystifying.
 

crisium

Platinum Member
Aug 19, 2001
2,643
615
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I was only watching on a 1440p display, but the RIS looked pretty good considering the ~30% performance boost it gave. I can accept minor artifacts for framerate - depending on the game. Some games artifact more than others.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,160
5,623
146
Woof. As I predicted in motion this looks awful, at least when thrown through more image altering such as Youtube compression. I'd have to see this is in person. These are the kind of anomalies I predicted, with edges being sharpened it creates thicker borders and in motion would result in more jaggies. And whatever is happening in the water, I'd rather just not bother with it.

If I had to guess, this is a request from Google for Stadia. They're going to be using low native rendering upscaled to whatever output the user selects. They're gonna need all the IQ fixing they can get.

EDIT: All that noise in the BF5 forest scene! Why are both these companies in a race to degrade IQ!? I was only kidding when I said the future is streaming. I shed a tear for the old days of GPU reviews that featured IQ testing. Nowadays, these reviewers all have their faces in their cell phones streaming 480p upscaled to whatever resolution their phone is (data caps, man data caps!) and they think it's "crystal clear!"

I can't wait for my eye sight to completely go. Then I can be all "hey fellow kids"

EDIT #2: Oh god, this is gonna be in next gen consoles too! How else are they going to get the 4k@60 they've been promising since the mid-cycle refresh. They came up with some interesting upscaling formulas and this is just going to be the cherry on top.

Breaking news: Railven yells at clouds!

Not sure why you're getting that, its not like Google couldn't have done that on their own. Heck, Google can probably do much more interesting stuff (use their image processing stuff not unlike Nvidia's DLSS; heck they could run everything through a dedicated video processing chip to accomplish sharpening with no hit to the GPU performance - possibly they could even leverage the built-in video processing block on the AMD GPUs).

This is purely because of Nvidia's DLSS claims, so AMD felt they had to offer something similar (and show that they don't need AI processing on supercomputers to achieve it).

Nvidia did it because they needed some way to try and make raytracing seem more viable than it is, so they had to drop resolution but come up with some way of justifying doing so.

Doesn't matter if you were kidding or not, streaming is the future. Give it 10 years and I bet most gaming is done via streaming.

You know they were already doing stuff like this on consoles, right? This is just another form of their way of trying to maximize IQ and framerates. Its always been a give and take and they've always used "cheats" on consoles to get more from less. They're having to resort to that more on PC because the gains from brute forcing things are diminishing (partly because resolutions are going up much higher at the same time people are wanting higher framerates), and there's diminishing returns in the IQ quality improvements from doing newer processing stuff, so they need to try and keep performance high. Personally I wish they'd resort more to trying more unique art styles to compensate more.

Lastly, you don't have to use it. Same with the various AA they've developed. Which that is something that surprised me about Stadia is Google talking about offering higher visual fidelity options via mGPU.

Don't be surprised if in the future, celebrity game streamers get to play a local version (as in Google/Microsoft/Sony/etc has setup some area in a data center or something, with high quality equipment and like professional lighting/etc; maybe they have other celebrities on hand or the developers to give sorta "commentary" about different aspects) of big name games, with max visual fidelity, and then stream that.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,160
5,623
146
Don't keep making up strawman arguments.

Nobody ever said it would be "easy", just like how the IF in Zen is integral to its success, versus the old way of using the CPU bus as the communication pathway. The time has come for new things. Using the "if it was easy, it would already be done" argument makes it seem that there should never be any further advances, but as we all should know, everything is hard when first done. The Wright brothers, the 4 minute mile, 1st heart transplant, ad infinitum.

And, nobody says MGPU, but you keep arguing the point as if they do.

I say 'A' but you keep arguing that 'B' is wrong. Mystifying.

Agreed, it won't be easy. I've been saying for some time now that people need to start understanding how difficult it is to develop new processors.

I actually have been saying mGPU the whole time, as that's what it literally is or likely will be initially (since I think we'll see GPU chiplets before we see them break the GPUs into dedicated co-processing blocks). But GPUs would obviously have their designs tailored for chiplets, so its really arguing semantics for no good reason.

He's trying to tell people that its not going to magically happen and work flawlessly, which I don't think anyone is saying, but he's responding to the general optimism that we are having that they will develop GPU chiplets.

Which as far as mGPU goes, the main sticking point is software optimization, and I think that isn't as much of a hurdle as he seems to think, especially if the platform provides some way of getting a pretty easy 50+% performance (which is where mGPU is kinda at right now, its just that GPU costs have gone so crazy that people don't want to deal with paying double to deal with headaches on top of the diminishing returns). If mGPU helps to lower the cost per GPU then it'd be more acceptable for consumers. The big companies doing the platforms (Microsoft, Sony, Google, Apple, etc) have the clout to make it worthwhile for developers to implement, and they also have developers of their own to make it easier to implement. I personally think a console would be a potential area as well, as the platform gives them a very fixed target, and Microsoft and Sony already provide a lot of tools to developers. On PC that falls to AMD and Nvidia, and the latter has openly kinda given up on most mGPU, while the former just leaves it up to developers (which isn't the best; AMD has been trying to change so we'll see, but if one of the next consoles has mGPU of some sort, it could mean its potentially easier to implement on the PC side).

I mean, we had mGPU working pretty well before. And we've been told it actually should be better/easier to implement on newer APIs. Plus we have other things that make it potentially more viable (VR headsets where they can do per eye rendering). I feel like we just need pricing to improve and normalize, and then a killer app to make people want the absolute best. Its like we need a Crysis type of game, or some VR thing.

Gaming is so fickle. I mean people were buying 3 monitors for Eyefinity and not balking at the costs that much. But now we have VR which is better than multi-monitor gaming, and people complain about its costs even though its similar. And the GPU hardware costs really have not changed that much (and arguably are not nearly that bad when taking inflation into account). But games just don't seem to get the same hype as they used to, or maybe its the baseline hype is higher so the relative peak doesn't seem so. Crysis really overshadowed everything although I don't know it actually did that well. We need another game like that though. Probably the closest we'll get is Cyberpunk 2077.
 
Reactions: Glo.

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
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Actually, that came off combative, let me try again...

EDIT:

Not sure why you're getting that, its not like Google couldn't have done that on their own. Heck, Google can probably do much more interesting stuff (use their image processing stuff not unlike Nvidia's DLSS; heck they could run everything through a dedicated video processing chip to accomplish sharpening with no hit to the GPU performance - possibly they could even leverage the built-in video processing block on the AMD GPUs).

This is purely because of Nvidia's DLSS claims, so AMD felt they had to offer something similar (and show that they don't need AI processing on supercomputers to achieve it).

Google/Nvidia/AMD are all looking towards a bright beautiful streaming future. NV with Grid, AMD with their partnership with Google, so these techs are clearly aimed at that.

Nvidia did it because they needed some way to try and make raytracing seem more viable than it is, so they had to drop resolution but come up with some way of justifying doing so.

I'm aware of this, but it doesn't change that for me on it's own it's garbage. Why I'd only use it if required (ie for DXR). I'd sacrifice some IQ for better reflections.

Doesn't matter if you were kidding or not, streaming is the future. Give it 10 years and I bet most gaming is done via streaming.

That was me sort of joking, I'm well aware the future is streaming.

You know they were already doing stuff like this on consoles, right? This is just another form of their way of trying to maximize IQ and framerates. Its always been a give and take and they've always used "cheats" on consoles to get more from less. They're having to resort to that more on PC because the gains from brute forcing things are diminishing (partly because resolutions are going up much higher at the same time people are wanting higher framerates), and there's diminishing returns in the IQ quality improvements from doing newer processing stuff, so they need to try and keep performance high. Personally I wish they'd resort more to trying more unique art styles to compensate more.

I know, they've been doing it for years. However, consoles aren't PCs and not sure about you, but I'd rather not accept their shortcuts. Last refresh of consoles pushed upscaling and calling it "it's just as good as 4K" and this is clearly the next step for them.

Lastly, you don't have to use it. Same with the various AA they've developed. Which that is something that surprised me about Stadia is Google talking about offering higher visual fidelity options via mGPU.

Don't be surprised if in the future, celebrity game streamers get to play a local version (as in Google/Microsoft/Sony/etc has setup some area in a data center or something, with high quality equipment and like professional lighting/etc; maybe they have other celebrities on hand or the developers to give sorta "commentary" about different aspects) of big name games, with max visual fidelity, and then stream that.

I wouldn't use it on it's own. And as for the future, I'm well aware of all that. My yelling at clouds portion of the post was a joke for this.
 
Last edited:

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,759
4,666
136
Don't keep making up strawman arguments.

Nobody ever said it would be "easy", just like how the IF in Zen is integral to its success, versus the old way of using the CPU bus as the communication pathway. The time has come for new things. Using the "if it was easy, it would already be done" argument makes it seem that there should never be any further advances, but as we all should know, everything is hard when first done. The Wright brothers, the 4 minute mile, 1st heart transplant, ad infinitum.

And, nobody says MGPU, but you keep arguing the point as if they do.

I say 'A' but you keep arguing that 'B' is wrong. Mystifying.
What I am saying is very simple. At this moment of time it is impossible to overcome the technical difficulties to make Chiplet based GPUs look FOR GAMES like single one GPU.

I have already said, that Chiplets, for games, will happen. But in very far future.

They won't happen in 2020, that is for sure .

But you guys are making it sound like Chiplet GPUs are just around the corner. Which they aren't.
 
Reactions: DooKey

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,759
4,666
136
Agreed, it won't be easy. I've been saying for some time now that people need to start understanding how difficult it is to develop new processors.

I actually have been saying mGPU the whole time, as that's what it literally is or likely will be initially (since I think we'll see GPU chiplets before we see them break the GPUs into dedicated co-processing blocks). But GPUs would obviously have their designs tailored for chiplets, so its really arguing semantics for no good reason.

He's trying to tell people that its not going to magically happen and work flawlessly, which I don't think anyone is saying, but he's responding to the general optimism that we are having that they will develop GPU chiplets.

Which as far as mGPU goes, the main sticking point is software optimization, and I think that isn't as much of a hurdle as he seems to think, especially if the platform provides some way of getting a pretty easy 50+% performance (which is where mGPU is kinda at right now, its just that GPU costs have gone so crazy that people don't want to deal with paying double to deal with headaches on top of the diminishing returns). If mGPU helps to lower the cost per GPU then it'd be more acceptable for consumers. The big companies doing the platforms (Microsoft, Sony, Google, Apple, etc) have the clout to make it worthwhile for developers to implement, and they also have developers of their own to make it easier to implement. I personally think a console would be a potential area as well, as the platform gives them a very fixed target, and Microsoft and Sony already provide a lot of tools to developers. On PC that falls to AMD and Nvidia, and the latter has openly kinda given up on most mGPU, while the former just leaves it up to developers (which isn't the best; AMD has been trying to change so we'll see, but if one of the next consoles has mGPU of some sort, it could mean its potentially easier to implement on the PC side).

I mean, we had mGPU working pretty well before. And we've been told it actually should be better/easier to implement on newer APIs. Plus we have other things that make it potentially more viable (VR headsets where they can do per eye rendering). I feel like we just need pricing to improve and normalize, and then a killer app to make people want the absolute best. Its like we need a Crysis type of game, or some VR thing.

Gaming is so fickle. I mean people were buying 3 monitors for Eyefinity and not balking at the costs that much. But now we have VR which is better than multi-monitor gaming, and people complain about its costs even though its similar. And the GPU hardware costs really have not changed that much (and arguably are not nearly that bad when taking inflation into account). But games just don't seem to get the same hype as they used to, or maybe its the baseline hype is higher so the relative peak doesn't seem so. Crysis really overshadowed everything although I don't know it actually did that well. We need another game like that though. Probably the closest we'll get is Cyberpunk 2077.
Everybody appears to be believing that GPU chiplets for games are just around the corner.

And what I am only saying that it will not happen in the nearest future. There are too many difficulties to overcome for them. If they would be just around the corner, we actually would see at least glimpses of tech that is being put into the software. And, apart from Split Frame Rendering - there is nothing. And SFR is not enough to handle Chiplet based GPUs, for games.
 
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