Runners: Why are you too good for the sidewalk?

[Farang]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but 95% of drivers don't understand it is illegal to run 5 feet past a stop sign to see the road. They drive past the sidewalk and into the street. These people are both dangerous to pedestrians and annoying to runners who have to run around them. Huge pet peeve of mine.

I run in the street to avoid these people. It's pretty harmless because I can see cars coming and they have plenty of room to get by me.

 

[Vdubchaos]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but 95% of drivers don't understand it is illegal to run 5 feet past a stop sign to see the road. They drive past the sidewalk and into the street. These people are both dangerous to pedestrians and annoying to runners who have to run around them. Huge pet peeve of mine.

I run in the street to avoid these people. It's pretty harmless because I can see cars coming and they have plenty of room to get by me.

You are also required to give at least 3-4 feet of space when passing a bike (varies by state)

Truth is, no driver follows that law.

One of the reasons I said what I said is simply based on experience. Have you ever been skimmed with the mirror of a pick up truck while riding a bike on the road?

I have.....that will make you think twice. And no driver didn't even bother stopping or acknowledging ANYTHING.

If I was hit, he probably would've kept going too......

 

[sotired]

trees near the sidewalk house spiders that enjoy webbing across to the opposing wall. i don't like running into spider webs in the morning. so i run in the bike lane. deal with it.

 

[WelshBloke]

trees near the sidewalk house spiders that enjoy webbing across to the opposing wall. i don't like running into spider webs in the morning. so i run in the bike lane. deal with it.

Cos its better to be hit by a bike and rider than a spiders web?

 

[Red Storm]

Cos its better to be hit by a bike and rider than a spiders web?

You'd be surprised at the number of people who say yes.

 

[WelshBloke]

You'd be surprised at the number of people who say yes.

 

[Jeff7]

This guy does a pretty good job consolidating research done on the asphalt/concrete issue. It appears the consensus is yes, concrete is significantly harder, by enough to cause noticeable increase in injury. http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/144092.html

The hammer test described here can help show how the small difference in hardness makes a big difference in energy absorption: http://www.hillrunner.com/jim2/id184.html

Hammer vs concrete, or hammer vs asphalt - you've got two very solid objects hitting each other. Yes, there's going to be a difference.

Now put 3/4" of rubber and foam cushioning on the hammer, and see if you can still tell the difference in a double-blind test, without being able to hear what you're hitting.


Another thought: The texture of concrete sidewalks is typically smoother than asphalt roads. A runner's gait may change slightly to better accommodate this, compensating for the smoothness to reduce the risk of slipping.

 

[MrDudeMan]

Hammer vs concrete, or hammer vs asphalt - you've got two very solid objects hitting each other. Yes, there's going to be a difference.

Now put 3/4" of rubber and foam cushioning on the hammer, and see if you can still tell the difference in a double-blind test, without being able to hear what you're hitting.


Another thought: The texture of concrete sidewalks is typically smoother than asphalt roads. A runner's gait may change slightly to better accommodate this, compensating for the smoothness to reduce the risk of slipping.

Personal anecdotal evidence: I always feel more sore after running on concrete. My knees and left ankle ache longer.

Edit: Also, the hardness of a material isn't changed by another material being inserted between it and your foot. I know what you were trying to say, but all things are still equal for a runner except the concrete and asphalt. Same feet, shoes, socks, etc.

 

[RagingBITCH]

Hammer vs concrete, or hammer vs asphalt - you've got two very solid objects hitting each other. Yes, there's going to be a difference.

Now put 3/4" of rubber and foam cushioning on the hammer, and see if you can still tell the difference in a double-blind test, without being able to hear what you're hitting.


Another thought: The texture of concrete sidewalks is typically smoother than asphalt roads. A runner's gait may change slightly to better accommodate this, compensating for the smoothness to reduce the risk of slipping.

A runners gait may change based on the width of the path you are running on. Sidewalks are traditionally more jutted/cracked/concrete sticking out vs a road which tends to be smoother. With roads - they also typically are even/parallel to the ground in the middle (where some runners might run, hence john's post) vs a small-moderate camber towards the edges where the curb is. Sidewalks also tend to have camber issues.

In regards to the OP - there's always going to be those jackasses that ruin it for everyone. The asshole bikers who don't stop at stop signs. The runners you mention. They're not all like that...you just have to ignore the stupid ones.

 

[Vdubchaos]

A runners gait may change based on the width of the path you are running on. Sidewalks are traditionally more jutted/cracked/concrete sticking out vs a road which tends to be smoother. With roads - they also typically are even/parallel to the ground in the middle (where some runners might run, hence john's post) vs a small-moderate camber towards the edges where the curb is. Sidewalks also tend to have camber issues.
.

So are you saying one should risk their life for smoothness?

 

[Jeff7]

Personal anecdotal evidence: I always feel more sore after running on concrete. My knees and left ankle ache longer.

Edit: Also, the hardness of a material isn't changed by another material being inserted between it and your foot. I know what you were trying to say, but all things are still equal for a runner except the concrete and asphalt. Same feet, shoes, socks, etc.

The hardness of the substrate won't change, I understand that, but there are several orders of magnitude in difference between the hardness of the substrate and the cushioning in your shoe. It just strikes me as saying that there's a difference in fuel efficiency in a train that's unloaded, versus one that's carrying a full passenger load of a single cat. Against the weight of the train, the cat's weight is so small that it can practically be disregarded entirely.

I will say, I can see that there'd be something more of a brief impulse upon the shoe striking a harder surface, but it's also not a terribly rapid strike, and it's still a very soft surface striking a solid one. I would expect the flexing and natural damping properties of the shoe to absorb a great deal of the difference in impact forces.

A runners gait may change based on the width of the path you are running on. Sidewalks are traditionally more jutted/cracked/concrete sticking out vs a road which tends to be smoother. With roads - they also typically are even/parallel to the ground in the middle (where some runners might run, hence john's post) vs a small-moderate camber towards the edges where the curb is. Sidewalks also tend to have camber issues.

...

Also true. Plant trees right near the sidewalks, and then don't maintain the things when the tree roots start breaking and pushing the concrete around.

 

[tyanni]

Riding a bike on sidewalks is perfectly legal and reasonable in many/most places as long as the sidewalk doesn't run directly alongside entrances to houses/buildings.

Ah, no. In most places in the NE it is not legal to ride on the sidewalk. And it is incredibly obnoxious as well.

 

[silverpig]

Personal anecdotal evidence: I always feel more sore after running on concrete. My knees and left ankle ache longer.

Edit: Also, the hardness of a material isn't changed by another material being inserted between it and your foot. I know what you were trying to say, but all things are still equal for a runner except the concrete and asphalt. Same feet, shoes, socks, etc.

1. Put a trampoline on grass. Jump on it.
2. Put a trampoline on concrete. Jump on it.

Do you still think the substrate makes a lick of difference?

 

[colonelciller]

That's a huge fail dude.

You bike with traffic. It's common sense, and popular opinion.

common sense is created by the ignorants of this world... no thanks

 

[colonelciller]

1. Put a trampoline on grass. Jump on it.
2. Put a trampoline on concrete. Jump on it.

Do you still think the substrate makes a lick of difference?

just quoted stupidest post of the thread

 

[colonelciller]

Hammer vs concrete, or hammer vs asphalt - you've got two very solid objects hitting each other. Yes, there's going to be a difference.

Now put 3/4" of rubber and foam cushioning on the hammer, and see if you can still tell the difference in a double-blind test, without being able to hear what you're hitting.

now do it 20,000 times in a row and report back how you feel afterwards

 

[pmv]

You are also required to give at least 3-4 feet of space when passing a bike (varies by state)

Truth is, no driver follows that law.

One of the reasons I said what I said is simply based on experience. Have you ever been skimmed with the mirror of a pick up truck while riding a bike on the road?

I have.....that will make you think twice. And no driver didn't even bother stopping or acknowledging ANYTHING.

If I was hit, he probably would've kept going too......

Definitely. In my experience, most motorists regard the law as being something that's there for other people. Speeding, passing unnecessarily and terrifyingly close, and parking in the most idiotic places imaginable are all so common that motorists don't even notice they are doing it*. Then they go home and post on the internet a complaint about the lawbreaking cyclist they saw jumping a red light.

Dunno about running on the road. If there's no sidewalk I reckon pedestrians should have primacy on the road. Pedestrians were here first, if you take space away from them to provide for cars you are obliged to leave 'enough and as good for all' as Locke would put it.

Though its depressing how much the law of 'might is right' is applied - pedestrians will walk out in front of cyclists (or run in the cycle lane) in a way they would never do with cars, simply because cars pose a greater threat. Human beings care about power much more than they do morality.

*granted, on this issue one can still be thankful one doesn't live in Russia.

 

[silverpig]

just quoted stupidest post of the thread

It is directly analogous. There is something between you and the substrate that takes the vast majority of the shock, deformation, and stress. You could run on diamond and it wouldn't make a difference.

 

[Zivic]

If I was hit, he probably would've kept going too......

and he would have gotten 10 pts if you had on those tight spandex biker shorts... only 5 if you didn't

 

[kevman]

Around me the town is much older and the sidewalks are very uneven. I prefer the sidewalk usually but on the areas where it is to uneven I opt for the street.

 

[Capt Caveman]

It is directly analogous. There is something between you and the substrate that takes the vast majority of the shock, deformation, and stress. You could run on diamond and it wouldn't make a difference.

/facepalm

 

[Jeff7]

It is directly analogous. There is something between you and the substrate that takes the vast majority of the shock, deformation, and stress. You could run on diamond and it wouldn't make a difference.

The only other thing I can think of is what happens when you "bottom out" - when all the cushioning in the foam, rubber, and flesh has reached maximum compression, and then you're almost directly compressed against the substrate. Even then...I don't know.


Curses, I need a high-speed accelerometer. Now I'm curious.

 

[alkemyst]

The only other thing I can think of is what happens when you "bottom out" - when all the cushioning in the foam, rubber, and flesh has reached maximum compression, and then you're almost directly compressed against the substrate. Even then...I don't know.


Curses, I need a high-speed accelerometer. Now I'm curious.

Doesn't work the way you guys are imagining it to.

The problem comes from too much shoe cushioning can also cause problems.

 

[MrDudeMan]

It is directly analogous. There is something between you and the substrate that takes the vast majority of the shock, deformation, and stress. You could run on diamond and it wouldn't make a difference.

Actually, it's not. The concept is the same, but the amount of shock absorbed is vastly different.

I ordered a pressure sensor to add numbers to this discussion. I already know it's noticeably different because I can feel it and I did several calculations, but some people just won't believe something without a graph. I'll get the PCB back in a week or two and then I'll update this thread with the results.

 

[Jeff7]

Actually, it's not. The concept is the same, but the amount of shock absorbed is vastly different.

I ordered a pressure sensor to add numbers to this discussion. I already know it's noticeably different because I can feel it and I did several calculations, but some people just won't believe something without a graph. I'll get the PCB back in a week or two and then I'll update this thread with the results.

We shall await the hard data then.

(Some background too - I've been participating in the Divining Rod thread that's in Highly Technical, for whatever reason. People can easily perceive patterns and effects where none are actually present. Or the Wired.com article awhile back about how placebo medications are quite surprisingly effective. Or the fact that homeopathic remedies still exist at all.)


In your analysis of it, with the spring/damper system, what did you see from the shock? Is it just a huge initial spike of deceleration from the concrete, versus asphalt, which isn't effectively damped by the shoe?