running a new electrical wire

[TechBoyJK]

I'm moving in with a friend of mine. The room I'm taking has only 2 prong, non-grounded outlets. Since I'm not going to be rewiring the room, I went ahead and replaced the outlets (4 of them) with ground fault outlets. I know I could have got away with just replacing the lead outlet with one, but I need three pronged outlets on each, so I figured I would just replace them all with groundfaults.

Anyways, all the outlets and the ceiling fan are on a single circuit. I have my entertainment center, alarm clock, lamps, computer stuff, guitar amps, etc. all to power in this room. Oh yea, and soon to have a window a/c unit.

I want to seperate my computer and recording equipment from this main circuit. My workstation has a 12 outlet power conditioner that tells me if I have a good ground or not. Even with the ground fault outlets, it still says I don't have a good ground.

I'm planning on running a new wire/outlet with a ground from a new breaker up to the room, and putting in an extra outlet that will pop up out of the floor, in a hidden place. I'm going to hook up my computer equipment to that. This way, my sensitive stuff has a real ground and a dedicated circuit, which among other things, will help reduce any electrical noise created by the other items I have in the room.

Is there a special kind of wire I can use to reduce electrical noise and create a better quality electrical feed? The power conditioner I have already conditions the power, but I want to make sure it has the best feed possible.

 

[jagec]

Just get insulated solid-conductor wire of the appropriate gauge. It's a complete waste of money to have anything fancier than that. Any problems with your power are further up the system than you can control anyway.

 

[bsobel]

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
I'm moving in with a friend of mine. The room I'm taking has only 2 prong, non-grounded outlets. Since I'm not going to be rewiring the room, I went ahead and replaced the outlets (4 of them) with ground fault outlets. I know I could have got away with just replacing the lead outlet with one, but I need three pronged outlets on each, so I figured I would just replace them all with groundfaults.

Umm, if the old outlets where 2 prong, how exactly did you run the ground with the new GF outlets?

 

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
I'm moving in with a friend of mine. The room I'm taking has only 2 prong, non-grounded outlets. Since I'm not going to be rewiring the room, I went ahead and replaced the outlets (4 of them) with ground fault outlets. I know I could have got away with just replacing the lead outlet with one, but I need three pronged outlets on each, so I figured I would just replace them all with groundfaults.

Umm, if the old outlets where 2 prong, how exactly did you run the ground with the new GF outlets?

I didnt. They'll flip if the ground is actually needed. It even says thats part of the purpose of ground faults is that you don't need a ground because the fact that the outlet will shut off removes the need for a ground. If you already have 3 prong outlets, you have a real ground, and reduce the chance that the outlet will have to shutdown.

 

[bsobel]

I didnt. They'll flip if the ground is actually needed. It even says thats part of the purpose of ground faults is that you don't need a ground because the fact that the outlet will shut off removes the need for a ground. If you already have 3 prong outlets, you have a real ground, and reduce the chance that the outlet will have to shutdown.

Im trying to word this as gently as I can. You have no fricken idea what you are doing and have no business doing electrical work in that room.

First, you ask I "Even with the ground fault outlets, it still says I don't have a good ground." Then when I ask you how you grounded the outlets, you up and admit you didn't.

Second, you've created a VERY unsafe situation as anyone else using that room (and your own equipment) will now be able to plug into those outlets and will presume a ground is present. However, a ground (from your post) is NOT present. This is against the NEC, and it's for a damm good reason.

The NEC will allow this use provided that the outlet is labelled "UNGROUNDED" and the grounding hole permanately defeated (clue a plastic stick in there, for example)

You did NOT magically give yourself grounded outlets by installing outlets that have a ground plug. You did create a dangerous situation for anyone plugging appliances that expect a ground into those outlets.

You need to rip those back out OR run a ground wire to each.

 

[mobobuff]

Buying some fancy high-grade super-dooper-insulated romex to run from your breaker to the receptacle would be like buying a $5000 audio cable for a $200 audio system.

As long as you run the wire perpendicular to the wires it crosses, noise shouldn't be a problem. The wire is alreay well insulated. And as for providing "cleaner" power, not a chance. That's what your UPS is for.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: bsobel

I didnt. They'll flip if the ground is actually needed. It even says thats part of the purpose of ground faults is that you don't need a ground because the fact that the outlet will shut off removes the need for a ground. If you already have 3 prong outlets, you have a real ground, and reduce the chance that the outlet will have to shutdown.

Im trying to word this as gently as I can. You have no fricken idea what you are doing and have no business doing electrical work in that room.

First, you ask I "Even with the ground fault outlets, it still says I don't have a good ground." Then when I ask you how you grounded the outlets, you up and admit you didn't.

Second, you've created a VERY unsafe situation as anyone else using that room (and your own equipment) will now be able to plug into those outlets and will presume a ground is present. However, a ground (from your post) is NOT present. This is against the NEC, and it's for a damm good reason.

The NEC will allow this use provided that the outlet is labelled "UNGROUNDED" and the grounding hole permanately defeated (clue a plastic stick in there, for example)

You did NOT magically give yourself grounded outlets by installing outlets that have a ground plug. You did create a dangerous situation for anyone plugging appliances that expect a ground into those outlets.

You need to rip those back out OR run a ground wire to each.

Are you sure you know what you are talking about? A ground is really just another neutral that is in place incase the neutral gets disconnected or faulty. If the original neutral fails, you could be used in place and get electrocuted. A GFCI will sense an imbalance between hot and neutral and will trip at 5mA, protecting personnel. This does not require a ground.

The ground fault is used IN PLACE of the ground wire. If the GFCI can't find a good ground when it is needed, the outlet trips and cuts off electrical. Granted, I would prefer having a real ground, as if it is ever needed now my electrical will get cut off. Not as good, but better than being shocked. It also depends on code, because I know that some code requires that if you replace one outlet on a circuit with GFCI than all need to be replaced, which is what I've done. Now if I would have replaced the 2 prongs with nonGFCI 3 prongs, than that would be an illegal mistake that could kill someone.

Also I do appreciate your feedback. but you did kinda twist up my statements. I'm completely aware that there is no ground attached to these outlets. I would prefer there was, but as a precaution I used GFCI's which are better than nothing and allow me to hook up 3 prong devices. I'm also completely aware that these outlets are not grounded, which is why I wanted GCFI, because if a ground is needed, they fill flip off. I want a true outlet with a true ground, which is why I said for my most demanding equipment I am running a new cable......

 

[bsobel]

Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

Yes, I do. Your the one asking why your ups says you don't have a good ground when you didn't run the ground wire. If you understood this, you never would have asked that question. Also, the code I was refering to is the national electric code, as I stated, the use you setup is prohibited unless the outlet is marked ungrounded and the grounding hold is phyiscally disabled. Trust me, the NEC isn't there to be a PITA, it's basically a catalog of everything thats gone wrong before you so you dont make the same mistake

 

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

Yes, I do. Your the one asking why your ups says you don't have a good ground when you didn't run the ground wire. If you understood this, you never would have asked that question. Also, the code I was refering to is the national electric code, as I stated, the use you setup is prohibited unless the outlet is marked ungrounded and the grounding hold is phyiscally disabled. Trust me, the NEC isn't there to be a PITA, it's basically a catalog of everything thats gone wrong before you so you dont make the same mistake

lol, i didnt ask why my ups says I dont have a ground. I know why it doesn't, because there isn't one. What I should have followed up by saying is that my ups goes into protect mode w/o the ground, so I have to run a new connection. I just stated it says that and followed with me then saying I wanted to give it a ground by running a new wire...

"I want to seperate my computer and recording equipment from this main circuit. My workstation has a 12 outlet power conditioner that tells me if I have a good ground or not. Even with the ground fault outlets, it still says I don't have a good ground.

I'm planning on running a new wire/outlet with a ground from a new breaker up to the room, and putting in an extra outlet that will pop up out of the floor, in a hidden place. I'm going to hook up my computer equipment to that. This way, my sensitive stuff has a real ground and a dedicated circuit, which among other things, will help reduce any electrical noise created by the other items I have in the room. "

 

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Are you sure you know what you are talking about?

Yes, I do. Your the one asking why your ups says you don't have a good ground when you didn't run the ground wire. If you understood this, you never would have asked that question. Also, the code I was refering to is the national electric code, as I stated, the use you setup is prohibited unless the outlet is marked ungrounded and the grounding hold is phyiscally disabled. Trust me, the NEC isn't there to be a PITA, it's basically a catalog of everything thats gone wrong before you so you dont make the same mistake

I just read some code and I think what you are saying is only in effect if the outlets are not GFCI. I was even told this by an electrician when I was looking to buy a house.. Its absolutely illegal to put grounded outlets in w/o marking them as such and covering the ground hole if they are not GFCI, because it gives someone the impression they have a ground and could get shocked. GFCI outlets prevent that to a degree..

 

[bsobel]

Ok, sorry, this makes more sense. You originally said "Even with the ground fault outlets, it still says I don't have a good ground" which I took to mean you couldnt figure out why now that the GFCI's where in.

Also, I double checked the NEC. Only the labeling is required, not the physical obstruction. However, I would still highly urge you to do that, as you have still create a shock risk for people who later use those plugs thinking they are grounded. Yes the ground fault will trip, but people can still get a nasty shock while it does and those can still be fatal.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: bsobel
Ok, sorry, this makes more sense. You originally said "Even with the ground fault outlets, it still says I don't have a good ground" which I took to mean you couldnt figure out why now that the GFCI's where in.

Also, I double checked the NEC. Only the labeling is required, not the physical obstruction. However, I would still highly urge you to do that, as you have still create a shock risk for people who later use those plugs thinking they are grounded. Yes the ground fault will trip, but people can still get a nasty shock while it does and those can still be fatal.

i guess gfci's just prevent complete and total electrocution in exchange for a single shock??

I'll label them.

 

[bsobel]

I just read some code and I think what you are saying is only in effect if the outlets are not GFCI. I was even told this by an electrician when I was looking to buy a house.. Its absolutely illegal to put grounded outlets in w/o marking them as such and covering the ground hole if they are not GFCI, because it gives someone the impression they have a ground and could get shocked. GFCI outlets prevent that to a degree..

Nope, its GFI too. Say your using a metal case power tool and the internal shield fails, the ground SHOULD pick up the slack. In your scenario, there is no ground so the GFI will fault. However, someone using that tool will still get a nice shock (gfi's are not instant). Its that shock hazard (and the fact that gfi's can fail providing no protection in that case) which disallows grounded use without the ground. You correctly point out it will work, but that presumes none of the other bad things happen (e.g. appliance with metal case, failed insulation, failed gfi, etc) if they do it can create a very dangerous situation.

Bear in mind, frankly, I'm less worried about you (since your aware of the situation) than the next person to live in that room...

 

[bsobel]

i guess gfci's just prevent complete and total electrocution in exchange for a single shock??

Exactly, and given the choice I'll take the shock over electrocution anyday

 

[RiverDog]

Originally posted by: TechBoyJK
I'm moving in with a friend of mine. The room I'm taking has only 2 prong, non-grounded outlets. Since I'm not going to be rewiring the room, I went ahead and replaced the outlets (4 of them) with ground fault outlets. I know I could have got away with just replacing the lead outlet with one, but I need three pronged outlets on each, so I figured I would just replace them all with groundfaults.

Anyways, all the outlets and the ceiling fan are on a single circuit. I have my entertainment center, alarm clock, lamps, computer stuff, guitar amps, etc. all to power in this room. Oh yea, and soon to have a window a/c unit.

I want to seperate my computer and recording equipment from this main circuit. My workstation has a 12 outlet power conditioner that tells me if I have a good ground or not. Even with the ground fault outlets, it still says I don't have a good ground.

I'm planning on running a new wire/outlet with a ground from a new breaker up to the room, and putting in an extra outlet that will pop up out of the floor, in a hidden place. I'm going to hook up my computer equipment to that. This way, my sensitive stuff has a real ground and a dedicated circuit, which among other things, will help reduce any electrical noise created by the other items I have in the room.

Is there a special kind of wire I can use to reduce electrical noise and create a better quality electrical feed? The power conditioner I have already conditions the power, but I want to make sure it has the best feed possible.

I have never heard of any outlet like this and can't see any reason for a "hidden outlet". From what I remember of the NEC i didn't think a floor receptacle was allowed, think water spills. I would be intrested in see a code inspector that would aprove this installation without a ground. A ground and a neutral are not the same.

 

[bsobel]

From what I remember of the NEC i didn't think a floor receptacle was allowed, think water spills. I would be intrested in see a code inspector that would aprove this installation without a ground. A ground and a neutral are not the same.

Floor receptacles are fine and actually very common. Also, the OP is running a new line for this outlet (so a real ground will be in place)

Bill

 

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: bsobel

From what I remember of the NEC i didn't think a floor receptacle was allowed, think water spills. I would be intrested in see a code inspector that would aprove this installation without a ground. A ground and a neutral are not the same.

Floor receptacles are fine and actually very common. Also, the OP is running a new line for this outlet (so a real ground will be in place)

Bill

yea, its going to be a new wire. I don't have the option to rewire the room. I'm actually considering using a sort of conduit to come out of the floor so the outlet is on a risen post.

a ground and neutral are not the same, i agree, but if the neutral fails, the ground helps redirect the current. GFCI's will shut off if there is a need for a ground and its not there.

 

[Greenman]

Originally posted by: bsobel

I didnt. They'll flip if the ground is actually needed. It even says thats part of the purpose of ground faults is that you don't need a ground because the fact that the outlet will shut off removes the need for a ground. If you already have 3 prong outlets, you have a real ground, and reduce the chance that the outlet will have to shutdown.

Im trying to word this as gently as I can. You have no fricken idea what you are doing and have no business doing electrical work in that room.

First, you ask I "Even with the ground fault outlets, it still says I don't have a good ground." Then when I ask you how you grounded the outlets, you up and admit you didn't.

Second, you've created a VERY unsafe situation as anyone else using that room (and your own equipment) will now be able to plug into those outlets and will presume a ground is present. However, a ground (from your post) is NOT present. This is against the NEC, and it's for a damm good reason.

The NEC will allow this use provided that the outlet is labelled "UNGROUNDED" and the grounding hole permanately defeated (clue a plastic stick in there, for example)

You did NOT magically give yourself grounded outlets by installing outlets that have a ground plug. You did create a dangerous situation for anyone plugging appliances that expect a ground into those outlets.

You need to rip those back out OR run a ground wire to each.

In fact, when you need to replace an old style two prong outlet a GFI is the code required replacement around here. Even though there is no ground.

 

[bsobel]

In fact, when you need to replace an old style two prong outlet a GFI is the code required replacement around here. Even though there is no ground.

Thats exactly why. The GFI will at least give you a shock and shutdown in that case vs keep the current on.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: bsobel

From what I remember of the NEC i didn't think a floor receptacle was allowed, think water spills. I would be intrested in see a code inspector that would aprove this installation without a ground. A ground and a neutral are not the same.

Floor receptacles are fine and actually very common. Also, the OP is running a new line for this outlet (so a real ground will be in place)

Bill

floor receptacles are very common, however since the united states recently adopted the new 2006 international builders codes, I believe all new outlets must be at least 18 inches off of floor level. you better check that out with a certified electrician first.


<=== just finished completely rewiring my entire house from the pole inward.

 

[bsobel]

floor receptacles are very common, however since the united states recently adopted the new 2006 international builders codes, I believe all new outlets must be at least 18 inches off of floor level. you better check that out with a certified electrician first.

Can I ask for a link (I looked, but I can't find any reference to a rule change here). I find it highly unlikely that floor outlets would suddenly be against the NEC (as long as the box meets the water resitant requirements)

 

[TheSource]

We just installed floor outlets in a school building at my job.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: bsobel

floor receptacles are very common, however since the united states recently adopted the new 2006 international builders codes, I believe all new outlets must be at least 18 inches off of floor level. you better check that out with a certified electrician first.

Can I ask for a link (I looked, but I can't find any reference to a rule change here). I find it highly unlikely that floor outlets would suddenly be against the NEC (as long as the box meets the water resitant requirements)

Floor outlets in UL listed boxes are fine in the USA.

 

[Rubycon]

While the ground wire and neutral are at the same potential, the neutral (unlike the ground) carries current in normal use. The ground is bonded to the chassis in the event a malfunction occurs to bring the hot side to a fault opening fuses or CB's.

When a ground fault occurs, the chassis will become energized and thus the ground fault circuit interrupter will come into play and break the circuit quickly if someone touches it. A normal circuit breaker would stay closed in this case. If this were the case of say a washing machine and the unfortunate owner were to touch the energized chassis while standing on a damp concrete floor in bare feet, he or she may not live to tell about it. :Q (The GFCI will open in such a case - but the victim would most definitely feel it!)

Grounds are necessary for basic surge arrestors to work as well. If there is no ground where is the over voltage going to get dumped? This is why a UPS will have a wiring fault indicator. If it glows you have no voltage spike protection. (VSP) If a lightning storm strikes your equipment will likely get exposed to damaging 6.6 kV spikes when bolts strike close to the power lines. (this is the normal potential that bus flashover occurs in the service entrance - and this voltage will be passed downstream to everything plugged in!) Most cheap MOV devices "clamp" around 330VAC and better ones for sensitive AV equipment at 145VAC.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: bsobel

floor receptacles are very common, however since the united states recently adopted the new 2006 international builders codes, I believe all new outlets must be at least 18 inches off of floor level. you better check that out with a certified electrician first.

Can I ask for a link (I looked, but I can't find any reference to a rule change here). I find it highly unlikely that floor outlets would suddenly be against the NEC (as long as the box meets the water resitant requirements)

unfortunately a link is not to be found... all I have is the book given to me by the electrical inspector.

upon further review, you may be under different ordinances than me... me boro doesnt use the 2005 NEC, we adopted the 2006 IRC...

You'll need to find out from your boro or state which set of competing regulations are enforced in your area.