running causes knee soreness when doing squat/DL

[Special K]

I have increased the type and intensity of my running workouts while keeping my lifting workouts more or less the same and have noticed that my knees and sometimes what feels like the very tops of my shin bones are often sore when I do a deadlift and/or squat workout the day after a hard running workout.

My knees are never sore during a run; it's always when I try to lift heavy the day after a hard run that I notice the soreness. Sometimes the soreness goes partially to mostly away during my warm up lifting sets, but it usually doesn't go completely away. The soreness is usually gone if it has been a few days between a running workout and a squat/deadlift workout, but I normally don't take days off like that. The problem is more apparent with deadlifts than squats. Maybe that is because my knees are almost over my toes in a conventional deadlift, but not a squat?

Currently, my runs consist of either 2-3 miles worth of intervals on a track, or 3-6 miles worth of running on streets/sidewalks. These runs usually have a fair number of hills involved, some of them quite long/steep. Prior to this I was only running on a flat treadmill at a constant pace and never really noticed this soreness. I have been following the new routine for a few months now and the knee soreness hasn't really gotten any worse over that time. The track intervals are a more recent addition and seemed to make the soreness worse, particularly the most recent time when we had to run on the track's underlying pavement because the surface had been stripped in preparation for replacement.

I run 3 days per week and lift 3 days per week, alternating a day of running with a day of lifting. Lifting workouts are full body.

Is this something I should be worried about? Is there any way to keep doing both compound lifts and road running without having knee soreness? It seems that most/all runners I run with don't lift, and most of the people I know who lift don't like to run, so I haven't been able to get much useful feedback from the people I normally train with.

 

[highland145]

Age? Lift lbs?

 

[Zivic]

I would quit running... only thing it's good for is clearing your head, physically it just beats you up. Weight training is doing more for you, so if you have to give one up stop running.

it could be just an imbalance/flexibility thing. over using certain muscles and they are getting tight and pulling at your knee. I had an issue with my hamstrings pulling my knees inwards. took a little specialized stretching.

What are your goals and how important is the running to said goals?

 

[JJChicken]

Poor form on either running or squats and deads. Activate your glutes more so that you don't use your knees excessively when running.

 

[deadken]

I'd see a good sports doctor. I did have a knee issue a while back. Like you, my knees never hurt while running. I had some pain in my knees while using the stairs (more pain going down the stairs, some pain going up the stairs). It ended up being that my quads were pulling my kneecaps out of their normal 'groove'. A few simple exercises and they've been fine. Now I typically run 20-30+ miles a week.

I different from Zivic in the sense that if I had to give one thing up, it wouldn't be the running. He's made his opinion clear and I simply disagree with it. If running 'works' for you, I wouldn't consider giving it up.

 

[Zivic]

.

I different from Zivic in the sense that if I had to give one thing up, it wouldn't be the running. He's made his opinion clear and I simply disagree with it. If running 'works' for you, I wouldn't consider giving it up.

Why do you disagree? define "works"

I contend, the weight training is more beneficial than running, and isnt as damaging to the body.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Why do you disagree? define "works"

I contend, the weight training is more beneficial than running, and isnt as damaging to the body.

Define beneficial. Say my goals are cardio fitness and stamina. Is weight training more beneficial then? I do both weight training and running just like any other well rounded athlete.

 

[deadken]

I apologize for responding to an off topic post inside this thread. I'll reply to the questions asked and I will ask Zivic to PM me or start a different thread if he'd like to take this conversation any further.

Because I'll choose endurance over size. I enjoy the benefits of running: the cardio fitness, the number of calories burned, the clear head, the fact that I can run right outside my front door or anywhere, etc... I'm 47 and I'm fit. While I'm likely not as strong as you, you likely aren't as fit as I am. I think it is a natural progression to go from being able to build muscle to being able to last longer (bad wording, but I think you get the point).

If it 'Works' for him: If he enjoys running, it's helping him reach his goals, it fits into his schedule, he likes / wants the benefits, etc... We are all different people and I recognize that. I don't think you do.

I think I know what you contend. I've read it over and over. You post a good amount. I simply disagree. It doesn't mean I don't like you. It doesn't mean I think you are stupid. It doesn't mean that my opinion is more important than yours. It just means we don't agree. It really would be nice if you understood, respected my opinion, and gave me the courtesy that I give you whether you agree with it or not. I believe these forums are for discussions, not for beating your opinion into someone else.

I know / see a lot of runners. I don't recall seeing a lot of damaged bodies. I've been to my doctor to get medical clearance for a Half Iron Man Triathlon. He was VERY happy with how my physical exam went. I'm pretty sure he would have pointed out any damage I was doing as I was there specifically to get the okay to Swim, Bike, Run 70.3 miles nonstop. Now, please realize that I'm not saying he would have told you anything different (impossible to know unless you visit my Dr). But, perhaps some of his measurements would have indicated differently (blood pressure, resting heart rate, blood work results, EKG, ECG, etc...). I think it is a case of apples and oranges and one isn't necessarily better than the other.

I think that a balanced approach is great. Some cardio and some strength training makes for a well rounded person (as OILFIELDTRASH pointed out). I don't look like the guy who won the NYC Marathon and I don't look like a guy who starred in the Expendables. I'm happy with how I look and more importantly, to me, how I feel. If you are happy with how you look and feel I think that is great too. But, more importantly to me, if the guy who started this thread is happy with running as part of his exercise program then I think he should get checked out by a good sports doctor and keep running if it is deemed OK and if some exercises and/or stretches will reduce / remove his problem. I contend that a well rounded person / athlete would be LESS prone to injury compared to someone who only participates in one kind of activity / exercise.

Zivic, please feel free to PM me or start another thread should you want to continue this off topic discussion. I think that the OP deserves to have this thread dedicated to helping him sort out his issue. My original reply was because I had an issue that *might* have been very similar to his. I offered my experience and what worked for me as a suggestion. I fear that this post and your previous post will not further that discussion one bit.

 

[Zivic]

Define beneficial. Say my goals are cardio fitness and stamina. Is weight training more beneficial then? I do both weight training and running just like any other well rounded athlete.

increasing lean mass is more beneficial than simply burning calories. In a very general sense running will make your body more efficient-> your body basically loses lean mass (running is catabolic), making you need less and less calories (slowing your metabolism)

this doesn't take into account the impact of running on one's joints. In regards to the OP, it is proving to be of some issue to his knees, so if general health and looks are what is important, he is better off not running.

Running isn't all bad, but for overall health, weight/resistance training is better. if your end goal is merely to run a marathon, go for it

Please don't mistake that for becoming an IFBB pro bodybuilder. And no, a few weeks of weights will not make you look like me. It's clear that nobody on this forum would like to have a Gorilla build like I have.

 

[SunburstLP]

K, what kind of footwear do you use for running and lifting? Also, technique/form is critical to both activities. Learning how to run is something that took me a long time; coordination isn't my strong point. Same goes for lifting. It took me a good long while to learn how to squat so that it didn't hurt because my proprioception is pretty poor. I watched a ton of videos, read my ass off and had some knowledgeable buddies helping me out.

Running and lifting aren't mutually exclusive things guys. Just because someone wants to lift doesn't mean they want to look like a body builder. I started lifting because I wanted to augment my running. A strong core is important. Then I realized that you get a different "high" from each activity. I love the meditative aspect of running. It feels good to push yourself for a long time. I also love the feeling I get from going into a weightroom and picking up and putting down some heavy (for me) stuff for a lesser period of time. I leveled off once it became awkward to buy pants. Which is/was really annoying since my thighs are much bigger than the weight they can move.

It's great being able to manhandle my garden tractor or move furniture with minimal assistance. It feels great to do better than I did last week. It feels great to simply DO.

 

[Zivic]

If running causes pain when lifting, they do become mutually exclusive..

That is my point here.

 

[SunburstLP]

And I'm saying that they shouldn't, barring any physiological issues. Only OP can know for sure if his technique is jacked up or he's running or lifting in the wrong gear. Squats and DLs do not favor running shoes. (I know you know this, others may not.)

My point is OP might need a runners clinic and/or a trainer to get his form right. Too many variables to do much beside tossing generalities around. We're all just trying to help a fellow out.

 

[Special K]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Let me address all of the follow up questions (If I missed one, let me know):

Age? Lift lbs?

Age: 32
DL: top set is 5x400 lbs (I do 5x5 with DL, building up to the top set)
Squat: top set is only 10x200 (I do sets across with squats)

I will admit that I don't train as heavy as I used to. I had a couple of injuries that required me to take a couple months off of the heavy lifts that made me question whether it was worth it to train like that given that I was starting to see very diminishing returns on size and strength relative to the effort I was putting in.

Granted the injuries could very well have been due to an error in technique on my part, but I thought it just wasn't worth it to take that kind of risk just to add 5 lbs to my squat/bench/deadlift and little to no clean LBM every few months. The decreasing rate of gains combined with not having any training partners or friends near me who are into lifting made me lose a lot of enthusiasm I had for the gym.

What are your goals and how important is the running to said goals?

I used to run competitively (only as far as high school though), and then once I gave that up I focused exclusively on lifting because I didn't like having the typical skinny runner's build. I added about 40 lbs. of LBM over the course of a few years (it took me awhile to learn everything I needed to know about proper routines, diet, etc.; I wasn't training and eating optimally from day 1) and then eventually added some cardio back into my routine because I didn't like being relatively strong but unable to walk up flights of stairs without getting winded. I ran on the treadmill for a few years up until a few months ago, at which point I started seeking out running groups.

My goals at this point are mainly just to be in good overall shape and have a good balance of strength and endurance. After adding the 40 lbs of LBM, I tried several more bulk/cut cycles and added mostly fat despite a perfectly clean diet, leading me to the conclusion that I have probably come close to what I'm capable of adding naturally. Again, I have a typical thin runner's frame so it's probably not realistic for me to expect to look like anything remotely close to an IFBB pro no matter how much I train. I've been on a maintenance level of calories ever since.

I started seeking out the running groups because training alone and indoors on a treadmill was starting to become very repetitive and boring, and I don't have any friends near me that are into any sort of fitness at all, plus a lot of my friends have recently moved away, gotten married, etc. In short, I'm looking for new ways to meet people with common interests and running seemed like a good place to start since it can be as much a social activity as a workout.

I don't have any burning innate desire to run a half marathon, marathon, etc. unless I did it as part of a training group that I felt like I was making friends with, at which point the training and the race would seem more like just doing something with friends.

Activate your glutes more so that you don't use your knees excessively when running.

What exactly does this mean in the context of running? How do you not use your knees "excessively" when running?

I had some pain in my knees while using the stairs(more pain going down the stairs, some pain going up the stairs)

Yeah, I notice this too sometimes.

It ended up being that my quads were pulling my kneecaps out of their normal 'groove'. A few simple exercises and they've been fine. Now I typically run 20-30+ miles a week.

Was it patellar-femoral syndrome? I had that for awhile when I ran competively, although the pain was always on the side of my knee. Apparently my kneecap wasn't tracking correctly and was being pulled out of its "groove".

K, what kind of footwear do you use for running and lifting?

I've been using the Asics GT-2XXX series for as long as I have been running. I lift in them as well.



One other thing I have noticed is that my lifting workouts and running workouts now seem to interfere with each other with regards to recovery. That is, a lot of times my legs will feel tired when running the day after a lifting workout, or when lifting the day after a hard running workout. I never had this problem when my running consisted only of flat treadmill jogging. Getting sufficient sleep helps, but I'm still trying to figure out how to balance recovery of running and lifting, if it can be done.

 

[flutterskit]

running's one of the worst thing you can do on bad knees. try "Elbow Revive". despite then name, it's actually really good for knees and other joints. worked wonders on my knee and ankle problems I was having about a year ago. other than that, lay off the distance runs and work on your mobility.

 

[SunburstLP]

If you're having recovery problems, I'd move out of a seven day cycle so you can rest more appropriately. Failing that, don't run so hard. If you're running for the enjoyment of it, an easy 3-5 miles 2-3x a week is probably all you would need. Speed work is great, but it demands way more recovery time.

I usually run in Asics Gel-Lyte 33-2s for easy and normal stuff. Track workouts, I use Nike Frees. In the gym, I just wear good old fashioned Chuck's. I tried to lift in my running shoes, but the squish and heel elevation really made my hips and knees hurt from knee slide. Others may be able to lift well in squishy shoes, but I can't.

I got some good ideas checking out strengthrunning.com a year ago or so, maybe you can find some useful info there. Or, you could look into triathlon style plans where there's more emphasis on strength training.

Anything beyond that is out of my area of knowledge, I hope you get something figured out.

 

[Zivic]

In the gym, I just wear good old fashioned Chuck's. I tried to lift in my running shoes, but the squish and heel elevation really made my hips and knees hurt from knee slide. Others may be able to lift well in squishy shoes, but I can't.

if you are squating and DL in running shoes (squishy, elevated heal) it can put you in a forward position, which may put extra strain on your knees.

Chucks are always a safe bet for weights.

I was wearing out about 3 pairs a year, so I was looking for an alternative, and found some Mark Bell influenced Reebok "crossfit" Lite TR shoes. They have some colorways on sale for $70 and if you register your email, they'll send you a 15% off coupon. they had these 40% off on cyber monday. picked up a couple pairs for $42 shipped which is cheaper than I was paying for chucks. I have had a pair since feb that are still in decent shape so they outlast last chucks by 3-fold or better. they are more comfortable as well.

I wear a 9 nike, 8.5 chuck, and 8.5 in the reeboks for some sizing reference -> I'd buy the same size as you wear in chucks as they have a fairly wide forefoot.

http://www.reebok.com/us/reebok-cro...r=CUSTOMIZE_IMG_Reebok%20CrossFit%20Lite%20TR

 

[Ventanni]

If running causes pain when lifting, they do become mutually exclusive..

That is my point here.

Unfortunately it doesn't narrow down the true cause of what's causing the tops of his shin bones to experience pain while lifting. Although differently, weight training can also wear joints like running can; it's not immune from this. This is why form is so extremely important, especially when doing heavier exercises like squats and deadlifts.

Based on the OP's description, the pain occurs while weight training. So by your logic, he should actually cut out weight training and stick strictly to running. But that's preposterous. He loves both, let him do both.

But anyways, to the point.

While I'm no doctor, I think what we have here is a classic case of the legs just needing rest. I, too, am both a runner and a weight lifter. If he's doing hill training, or just hard runs in general, then hitting the gym and doing hard leg workouts the very next day, then going back again to hill training, he's simply battering the same muscle groups. The ladies will surely love the man's gams, but of course he's going to be sore.

This sentence in the OP's first post is the dead giveaway:

My knees are never sore during a run; it's always when I try to lift heavy the day after a hard run that I notice the soreness.

My advice; do what I do and treat heavy runs like leg days in the gym. While they are not the same, they both require ample recovery time and overlap the same muscle groups. They also both require ample recovery time of the same joints. Remember, joints need recovery time too. They break down and rebuild just like muscle does. Consider them accordingly.

 

[SP33Demon]

See a PT like our resident SC. Send him a video of your (most likely erroneous) form on squats and deads.

 

[pauldun170]

I have increased the type and intensity of my running workouts while keeping my lifting workouts more or less the same and have noticed that my knees and sometimes what feels like the very tops of my shin bones are often sore when I do a deadlift and/or squat workout the day after a hard running workout.

My knees are never sore during a run; it's always when I try to lift heavy the day after a hard run that I notice the soreness. Sometimes the soreness goes partially to mostly away during my warm up lifting sets, but it usually doesn't go completely away. The soreness is usually gone if it has been a few days between a running workout and a squat/deadlift workout, but I normally don't take days off like that. The problem is more apparent with deadlifts than squats. Maybe that is because my knees are almost over my toes in a conventional deadlift, but not a squat?

Currently, my runs consist of either 2-3 miles worth of intervals on a track, or 3-6 miles worth of running on streets/sidewalks. These runs usually have a fair number of hills involved, some of them quite long/steep. Prior to this I was only running on a flat treadmill at a constant pace and never really noticed this soreness. I have been following the new routine for a few months now and the knee soreness hasn't really gotten any worse over that time. The track intervals are a more recent addition and seemed to make the soreness worse, particularly the most recent time when we had to run on the track's underlying pavement because the surface had been stripped in preparation for replacement.

I run 3 days per week and lift 3 days per week, alternating a day of running with a day of lifting. Lifting workouts are full body.

Is this something I should be worried about? Is there any way to keep doing both compound lifts and road running without having knee soreness? It seems that most/all runners I run with don't lift, and most of the people I know who lift don't like to run, so I haven't been able to get much useful feedback from the people I normally train with.

runner\lifter here
40's around 185lb- 190lb @ 5'9
Lift days - 3 days a week
DL - mid 400's
Squat - 300's
Runs - 3-13 miles, 3 days a weeks. No treadmill. All street with LOTS of real hills. My area is all hills.

Following opinion based on experience.
A. You are getting pain because the area is still not strong enough to handle the load given.

My knees are never sore during a run; it's always when I try to lift heavy the day after a hard run that I notice the soreness.

There is your mistake right there. Why are you doing lifts the day after a hard run? Only people who can get away with that are the teenagers and 20 nothings who are 10 years away from knee issues.

Solution? Rest and diet. Make sure that you are spacing out your hill work with DL\SQ work. No runs on or after squat day. Also, consider doing squats and deadlifts on separate days.
Since you changed your routine on runs, I would take some time to focus on the new schedule. Take 2-3 weeks to get your legs accustomed to the new routine and do a slight reset on your DL\SQ routine.


Other scenarios if pain continues after a month of option A.

B. Your form on DL and SQ sucks and now that your legs are seeing a little extra load from hill runs weakness resulting from form is being revealed. Its not uncommon for folks to adopt "brah advised form" vs form that's suitable for the body. Subtle changes can make all the difference.
Solution: Try with no shoes. Change spacing of feet and angle of toes. You should be driving off the heels. On DL, get rid of any "helpers". Lose the belt. Set straps aside. Focus on form. Weight will follow. Once you are all pro at then go ahead add straps or whatever.

C. You have bad form going down hill. Your running style may result in you not noticing the issue on runs but as soon as you do DL's...BAM.
Solution? Land like a Ninja, smooth and soft ESPECIALLY on down hills.

As for the running vs lifting argument.
All the old runners or life long runners have no issue with knees or legs.
Just about every lifter in my gym claims " knee issues".
I'll let you know when I'm old if running resulted in knee issues or if lifting resulted in knees issues.

 

[pauldun170]

if you are squating and DL in running shoes (squishy, elevated heal) it can put you in a forward position, which may put extra strain on your knees.

This this this this this this.

Either get dedicated lift shoes or just do the damn lifts in your socks.

 

[natenut]

There is an excellent book called "bulletproof knees" I run, lift and have even had knee surgery. Adhering to the advice in this book and becoming aware of the kinematics of body movement and how it impacts the knee has eliminated most of my knee pain. Its a really good resource. My particular pain was being caused by some lower back immobility and tight quads.

Anyway... we can all be armchair sports physicians. you should really go get it checked out in person.

 

[Special K]

My advice; do what I do and treat heavy runs like leg days in the gym. While they are not the same, they both require ample recovery time and overlap the same muscle groups. They also both require ample recovery time of the same joints. Remember, joints need recovery time too. They break down and rebuild just like muscle does. Consider them accordingly.

I agree that the hill and speed workouts are probably interfering with the squat/DL workouts and vice versa, but how do you structure a program that includes both yet allows for adequate recovery time?

I currently lift 3 days per week and follow a full body workout. Monday and Friday are Bench, Squat, Row, and a couple minor accessory lifts (abs on Monday, arms on Friday). Wednesday is Deadlift, Military Press, pullups, and a couple other minor accessory lifts. Tu/Th/Sa are running days.

It seems like I would be doing consecutive leg workouts no matter what.

Also even though the squats and running both work the legs and interfere with each other's recovery, they provide fundamentally different stimuli. No one ever got large, strong legs from running distances, and I don't think deadlifting helps much with running anything longer than a sprint.

 

[Special K]

There is your mistake right there. Why are you doing lifts the day after a hard run? Only people who can get away with that are the teenagers and 20 nothings who are 10 years away from knee issues.

Solution? Rest and diet. Make sure that you are spacing out your hill work with DL\SQ work. No runs on or after squat day. Also, consider doing squats and deadlifts on separate days.

If I have 3 runs per week and 3 full body lifting days per week, how do I structure them such that they don't interfere with each other? I'd rather not go back to a bodybuilding style bodypart split routine if possible. Don't most of the strength training experts (Rippetoe is the only one I have read) advice against those type of routines in general?

Other scenarios if pain continues after a month of option A.

B. Your form on DL and SQ sucks and now that your legs are seeing a little extra load from hill runs weakness resulting from form is being revealed. Its not uncommon for folks to adopt "brah advised form" vs form that's suitable for the body. Subtle changes can make all the difference.
Solution: Try with no shoes. Change spacing of feet and angle of toes. You should be driving off the heels. On DL, get rid of any "helpers". Lose the belt. Set straps aside. Focus on form. Weight will follow. Once you are all pro at then go ahead add straps or whatever.

Thanks, I'll look into this.

C. You have bad form going down hill. Your running style may result in you not noticing the issue on runs but as soon as you do DL's...BAM.
Solution? Land like a Ninja, smooth and soft ESPECIALLY on down hills.

I'll keep this in mind as well. Some of our downhills are so steep that I'm afraid to go top speed down them.

As for the running vs lifting argument.
All the old runners or life long runners have no issue with knees or legs.
Just about every lifter in my gym claims " knee issues".
I'll let you know when I'm old if running resulted in knee issues or if lifting resulted in knees issues.

Hmm, I always thought lifting was safe for the knees if done correctly.

 

[Special K]

This this this this this this.

Either get dedicated lift shoes or just do the damn lifts in your socks.

Thanks for the tip.

 

[deadken]

Was it patellar-femoral syndrome? I had that for awhile when I ran competively, although the pain was always on the side of my knee. Apparently my kneecap wasn't tracking correctly and was being pulled out of its "groove".

I still hope you'll see a good sports doctor as I mentioned earlier. But, in the meanwhile and in response to your question, I found the thread I started after I came back from seeing the sports doctor. It's almost 2 years old, but it has some details that I couldn't remember. The short story is that I went to my Dr, who wasn't in. So, I saw the PA and she said I should stop running because I had worn my knees out (I was running 17MPW for over a year at the time). I protested, and she said that I should at least cut my mileage in half. When I saw the sports doctor who said it could be 'patellar-femoral syndrome' and did the exercises he suggested the problem went away. Now I typically run 20+ to 30+ MPW. Quite a huge difference in diagnosis and how different my life would be right now! Ironically, I just ran 18miles last Saturday (more than my typical MPW back then) and my knees feel great while running or using the stairs.

Here is the link to the my post which describes the diagnosis:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=34429317#post34429317

IIRC, he had said it could be one of three things and to start with the first thing (as he thought it was most likely) then to see him again in 3 weeks.

I've been using the Asics GT-2XXX series for as long as I have been running. I lift in them as well.

Please, don't wear your running shoes for anything but running. It's important to let the cushion recover between runs. I now have 2 pair of running shoes which I typically alternate between (a bit of overkill since there isn't really any gain in the cushion after 24hrs). Also, replace your running shoes every 6 months.