Russia gets Crimea

[fskimospy]

And Crimea's native inhabitants were butchered by the Soviets and replaced with colonists.

Two wrongs make a right? US = bad, Russia = good? Keep drinking the kool-aid.

Now the Russians want to forcibly displace the Tatars again. I'm sure this time things will be different

If only stupidity was a terminal disease...

Almost every one of their arguments comes back to 'two wrongs make a right'.

 

[Jaskalas]

I mean it doesn't take a very large imagination to see the huge perverse incentives you create any other way. Kill everyone in a territory, move your people in, and wait a few years. Now suddenly you just say "well look, everyone we left alive there wants to be with us. Self determination!!!"

You think we address past crimes by denying people rights today?

Crimea belongs to those who live there today, not to anyone else. If they happen to be Russian then so be it. If you got a problem with that it should have been addressed years earlier, when the cleansing took place. It's too late for that now.

All you'd be doing is attacking an innocent Crimean people.

Focus on matter at hand, where common ground is shared. That Russian military invasion ill-legitimizes the democratic process and voids any votes under its influence. We can agree that Crimea is not free under Russian military, that the world should denounce any recognition as such.

Yet diplomacy cannot be all sticks and stones, a carrot must be given. We should address Russia's claim by giving Crimea time as an independent state. Let Crimea be open to both west and east for a decade, without military force. With broadcast media from both sides. Then, once they've held multiple elections for government, they would be "certified" independent and no longer opposed no matter what they choose for their future.

Crimea can be a diplomatic process, not a military campaign.

 

[werepossum]

It's amusing that people want to equate American's imperialism, which consists of protecting the freedom of nations who rarely vote with us or assist us in any venture, with Russia's imperialism, which consists of killing people and taking their lands.

 

[postmortemIA]

It's amusing that people want to equate American's imperialism, which consists of protecting the freedom of nations who rarely vote with us or assist us in any venture, with Russia's imperialism, which consists of killing people and taking their lands.

It is exact opposite. How many civilians have died from USA bombing in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya? Many many. Yet we have not a single shot or bomb in Russian intervention.

 

[piasabird]

While I think Russian took over and occupied a country and might finish the job, and keep invading more countries, maybe let them go ahead and take over the other Soviet Union Countries. They are over extending themselves! Let them waste their Military budget and fight with all the Muslim Terrorists.

 

[piasabird]

Every western country should pick a few of these locations like Ukraine, Georgia, etc and support the terrorists in that region. Terrorism is hard to fight. IED's, Sniper Rifles, Explosives, Shoulder rockets, Stinger Missiles. That should be fun.

 

[Jhhnn]

you need perspective.

And you need to quit sliming historical figures with revisionist conservative bullshit. FDR & Truman had certain realities to deal with, making the notion that they "abandoned" Latvia into a propaganda non-sequiter. A variety of unsuccessful mechanisms were employed to influence the outcomes in eastern Europe & the Baltic states.

The Soviets invoked the Iron Curtain to prevent western meddling with their own meddling in the areas taken from the German Army. The West employed similar methods in Greece, Italy & France, as well, ruthlessly suppressing Communist sympathies.

 

[Olikan]

It's amusing that people want to equate American's imperialism, which consists of protecting the freedom of nations who rarely vote with us or assist us in any venture, with Russia's imperialism, which consists of killing people and taking their lands.

ahahhahah...
dude, pretty much all dictatorships from africa and south america, since the cold war had CIA influence

 

[Jhhnn]

It's amusing that people want to equate American's imperialism, which consists of protecting the freedom of nations who rarely vote with us or assist us in any venture, with Russia's imperialism, which consists of killing people and taking their lands.

Yeh, nobody died in the invasion of Iraq.

Why don't you just mimic the crowd at the 2004 RNC, Chant USA!USA!USA! to prevent evil words from defiling your consciousness?

 

[OBLAMA2009]

While I think Russian took over and occupied a country and might finish the job, and keep invading more countries, maybe let them go ahead and take over the other Soviet Union Countries. They are over extending themselves! Let them waste their Military budget and fight with all the Muslim Terrorists.

if he does that his international popularity will go through the roof. he is totally outclassing obama.

 

[bshole]

I have little doubt that Crimea is part of Russia now because the west could not stop meddling in Russia's backyard. We basically pissed all over them without any regard to how they would respond. We treated Russia like our enemy and they responded in kind. I hope the west (read America) takes a lesson from this. Quite simply, quit putting your junk in everybody's face. I completely disagree with upping the ante through sanctions and such. It is futile, stupid, dangerous and counter-productive.

The proper move IMHO would be to acknowledge our mistake, apologize to Russia/Putin and promise not to do it again in the future. I have never seen America apologize ONCE for any of it's many monstrous foreign policy cock-ups. Cock-ups that resulted in deaths on a Biblical scale. It would be refreshing to see America do the right thing just once in my lifetime.

Fiercely defending Russia's move to annex Crimea, President Vladimir Putin said Russia had to respond to what he described as a Western plot to take Ukraine into its sphere of influence.

Speaking before parliament in a televised address to the nation, Putin said the rights of ethnic Russians had been abused by the new Ukrainian government. He insisted that Crimea's vote Sunday to join Russia was in line with international law and reflected its right for self-determination.

At the same time, the Russian leader said his nation didn't want to move into other regions of Ukraine, saying "we don't want division of Ukraine."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765649975/Putin-Crimea-should-be-part-of-Russia.html?pg=all

 

[Genx87]

I have little doubt that Crimea is part of Russia now because the west could not stop meddling in Russia's backyard. We basically pissed all over them without any regard to how they would respond. We treated Russia like our enemy and they responded in kind. I hope the west (read America) takes a lesson from this. Quite simply, quit putting your junk in everybody's face. I completely disagree with upping the ante through sanctions and such. It is futile, stupid, dangerous and counter-productive.

The proper move IMHO would be to acknowledge our mistake, apologize to Russia/Putin and promise not to do it again in the future. I have never seen America apologize ONCE for any of it's many monstrous foreign policy cock-ups. Cock-ups that resulted in deaths on a Biblical scale. It would be refreshing to see America do the right thing just once in my lifetime.



http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765649975/Putin-Crimea-should-be-part-of-Russia.html?pg=all

lol

 

[bshole]

Yea, yuck it up, Gen. Why do you think Mexico is a murderous hell hole right now? It is as a DIRECT and MEASURABLE result of American foreign policy meddling (specifically drug policy). We feel we have the right to do just about whatever the fuck we want to destroy Mexico (our neighbor). We feel we have the right to turn Russia's closest neighbor against her. What presumptious, narcissistic, reeking arrogance!

What we have done to Mexico is an order of magnitude worse than what what Russia has done to the Crimea. Why the hell Mexico keeps bending over so we can screw them yet again is beyond me. Perhaps they are afraid of our military response if they don't do exactly what we tell them to do.

We would be better off if we pulled ALL our troops back to the USA...... the world would be INFINITELY better off.

 

[Genx87]

Yea, yuck it up, Gen. Why do you think Mexico is a murderous hell hole right now? It is as a DIRECT and MEASURABLE result of American foreign policy meddling (specifically drug policy). So we feel we have the right to do just about whatever the fuck we want to destroy Mexico (our neighbor) and also feel we have the right to turn Russia's closest neighbor against her.

What we have done to Mexico is an order of magnitude worse than what what Russia has done to the Crimea. Why the hell Mexico keeps bending over so we can screw them yet again is beyond me. Perhaps they are afraid of our military response if they don't do exactly what we tell them to do.

We would be better off if we pulled ALL our troops back to the USA...... the world would be INFINITELY better off.

So basically your argument boils down to two wrongs make a right.

 

[bshole]

So basically your argument boils down to two wrongs make a right.

Only IF you consider the people of Crimea asking to be part of Russia and Russia accepting is a wrong.

Even if it is a wrong (which it isn't), it is none of America's fucking business. It just is NOT. There is no possible way to argue THAT with anything resembling cogency.

What we have is a bunch of shivering neo-cons shitting their underwear because another country in the world didn't kiss our pinky ring and ask our permission to do something that they had every right to do.

 

[Genx87]

Only IF you consider the people of Crimea asking to be part of Russia and Russia accepting is a wrong.

Even if it is a wrong (which it isn't), it is none of America's fucking business. It just is NOT. There is no possible to argue THAT with anything resembling cogency.

A nation violating another country's border is the worlds issue. Im pretty sure Russia has an opinion on when we do it. Or should Putin shut his pie hole in your world?

 

[code65536]

It is as a DIRECT and MEASURABLE result of American foreign policy meddling (specifically drug policy).

Actually, it's our (admittedly stupid) domestic drug policy. Mexico just happened to get caught in it because they're so close, so they are a logical place to illicitly produce drugs. But there are other problems affecting Mexico that are not drug-related, though yes, what you see making splashes in the news in recent years is the result of our War on Drugs.

I have little doubt that Crimea is part of Russia now because the west could not stop meddling in Russia's backyard.

Um, no. You know, the world does not revolve around the US. Hell, the US has been mostly hands-off. This is a dispute between Ukraine, Russia, and the EU. We get dragged in because we're allied with the EU and because Russian propaganda works so much better with the US as an enemy than with the EU as an enemy. (Because, let's face it, we're so much easier to vilify than the EU.)

Ukraine didn't want to distance itself from Russia because we were seductively whispering into their ears. They were resentful of Soviet imperialism, and for them, Russia represents corruption and a lack of freedom, whereas the EU and the West represents rule of law and more freedom. Are you going to deny Yanukovych jailing political opponents? Or that he was as corrupt as the Russian ruling class?

This whole thing started because Ukrainians wanted a trade agreement with the EU (not US). The main response to this crisis has been coming from the EU (with the US following along and parroting out of support for our EU allies).

Stop making every story about the US. This is one of those cases where we had nothing to do with it. Putin threw a fit because his puppet was overthrown and he wanted to punish Ukraine, show that he wasn't to be trifled with, and generally prove to everyone that he has the bigger phallus.

 

[michal1980]

Actually, it's our (admittedly stupid) domestic drug policy. Mexico just happened to get caught in it because they're so close, so they are a logical place to illicitly produce drugs. But there are other problems affecting Mexico that are not drug-related, though yes, what you see making splashes in the news in recent years is the result of our War on Drugs.


Um, no. You know, the world does not revolve around the US. Hell, the US has been mostly hands-off. This is a dispute between Ukraine, Russia, and the EU. We get dragged in because we're allied with the EU and because Russian propaganda works so much better with the US as an enemy than with the EU as an enemy. (Because, let's face it, we're so much easier to vilify than the EU.)

Ukraine didn't want to distance itself from Russia because we were seductively whispering into their ears. They were resentful of Soviet imperialism, and for them, Russia represents corruption and a lack of freedom, whereas the EU and the West represents rule of law and more freedom. Are you going to deny Yanukovych jailing political opponents? Or that he was as corrupt as the Russian ruling class?

This whole thing started because Ukrainians wanted a trade agreement with the EU (not US). The main response to this crisis has been coming from the EU (with the US following along and parroting out of support for our EU allies).

Stop making every story about the US. This is one of those cases where we had nothing to do with it. Putin threw a fit because his puppet was overthrown and he wanted to punish Ukraine, show that he wasn't to be trifled with, and generally prove to everyone that he has the bigger phallus.

how do you explain Canada then? (with respect to the drug problem)

 

[werepossum]

It is exact opposite. How many civilians have died from USA bombing in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya? Many many. Yet we have not a single shot or bomb in Russian intervention.

Um, there's at least one dead and several injured soldiers.

And if you're going to excuse annexing another nation as long as no one died, then let's blame the Iraqis for fighting back.

Yeh, nobody died in the invasion of Iraq.

Why don't you just mimic the crowd at the 2004 RNC, Chant USA!USA!USA! to prevent evil words from defiling your consciousness?

Your foamy jealous rage of those who have achieved consciousness is duly noted and found humorous.

 

[code65536]

how do you explain Canada then? (with respect to the drug problem)

Do you really need to ask that question?

Stronger rule of law = harder to establish drug production in Canada.
Better economic conditions = Fewer people view the drug trade as a way to get by.

 

[zinfamous]

And you need to quit sliming historical figures with revisionist conservative bullshit. FDR & Truman had certain realities to deal with, making the notion that they "abandoned" Latvia into a propaganda non-sequiter. A variety of unsuccessful mechanisms were employed to influence the outcomes in eastern Europe & the Baltic states.

The Soviets invoked the Iron Curtain to prevent western meddling with their own meddling in the areas taken from the German Army. The West employed similar methods in Greece, Italy & France, as well, ruthlessly suppressing Communist sympathies.

calling me a conservative, much less revisionist, is laughable.

let me summarize what I mean by your utter lack of perspective:

From a US standpoint, the deal with Stalin was difficult, complicated, and there simply were no good options. For us and for western Europe, allowing him the illegal occupation of these states during were time were the only terrible solution to avoid a prolonged war with that butcher.

My point had nothing to do with the US perspective--but the perspective of nations that had been occupied THREE TIMES over the course of five years--invading Russian army, invading German army, then again by an invading Russian army.

These were and always remained sovereign nations. Any claim Russia had to the Baltics, to Poland, to Czechoslovakia was at the hands of brutal deportation and repopulation. The world was not ignorant to this at the time.

The perspective you lack is that I am commenting about the decision the US and Western Europe means little to a country that just experienced the forced deportation of half their population, replaced by Russian peasants, their property taken, and many conscripted to fight against their own people in service of their occupiers. The western world recognizing these countries as sovereign by flying their flags in DC or at the UN, meanwhile possession of these flags at home meant an express trip to the gulag, for decades, stings a bit.

These countries have been free for just over 2 decades. If you think that is "in the past," then you are grossly unaware of history.

Add to the fact that in Latvia, where Russian population still represents 30% of the population, they have a rather difficult political situation. The only party that represents the liberal/left perspective is the Russian party. The opposition is a smattering of ultra-right-wing supreme nationalist groups that make our conservatives look like French liberals. The local government in Riga--mayor and city council, was handed to this Russian party about 4 years ago, simply because there is no legitimate leftwing perspective.

This has been the predominant topic since then. As you might expect, with the history or Putin posturing on their border every year, spreading bullshit through RT about "Latvia oppression of native Russian citizens" and these very real invasions of Crimea, you can bet they have legitimate concern.

Yes, I hear about this weekly. My SO's mom, who's father was sent to the Gulag in 1940 on the first Russian invasion because he owned a farm (leaving her abandoned at the age of 9), only to see him again, in 1967 on release, whose uncle volunteered to fight with the Germans during their occupation, simply to keep the Russians out of Latvia and who was consequently sent to Norilsk to mine silver for 2 decades, calls and yarbles on the phone for hours on end about what is going on.

Simply put: your perspective is that of a petulant child.

 

[zinfamous]

I have little doubt that Crimea is part of Russia now because the west could not stop meddling in Russia's backyard. We basically pissed all over them without any regard to how they would respond. We treated Russia like our enemy and they responded in kind. I hope the west (read America) takes a lesson from this. Quite simply, quit putting your junk in everybody's face. I completely disagree with upping the ante through sanctions and such. It is futile, stupid, dangerous and counter-productive.

The proper move IMHO would be to acknowledge our mistake, apologize to Russia/Putin and promise not to do it again in the future. I have never seen America apologize ONCE for any of it's many monstrous foreign policy cock-ups. Cock-ups that resulted in deaths on a Biblical scale. It would be refreshing to see America do the right thing just once in my lifetime.



http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765649975/Putin-Crimea-should-be-part-of-Russia.html?pg=all

whatever you say, comrade.

 

[TROLLERCAUST]

I have little doubt that Crimea is part of Russia now because the west could not stop meddling in Russia's backyard. We basically pissed all over them without any regard to how they would respond. We treated Russia like our enemy and they responded in kind. I hope the west (read America) takes a lesson from this. Quite simply, quit putting your junk in everybody's face. I completely disagree with upping the ante through sanctions and such. It is futile, stupid, dangerous and counter-productive.

The proper move IMHO would be to acknowledge our mistake, apologize to Russia/Putin and promise not to do it again in the future. I have never seen America apologize ONCE for any of it's many monstrous foreign policy cock-ups. Cock-ups that resulted in deaths on a Biblical scale. It would be refreshing to see America do the right thing just once in my lifetime.

We are not Russia's backyard. We are independent sovereign nations. Russia is the enemy, has always been and will be in the future. Their current and past aggression clearly show that. Russia is an existential threath to us as its neighbours. Russia is a threath to our freedom, democracy and way of life. We know from experience what it means to be under Russian rule. Never again.

The one who needs to apogolise is Russia for its aggressive expansion against international law.

If you completely forget about the US, Nato etc, what are the reasons to be in favour of Russia's actions in Crimea?

All I see is, USA this, Nato that, Iraq, Afganistan, slavery, American Indians, all kinds of absolute rubbish. The criminal here is Russia. I don't like Obama, I think he's a scumbag. I didn't like Bush, I thought he was even a bigger scumbag. I'm no fan of US foreign policy at times, but all this is irrelevant. You can't downplay what Russia is currently doing just because "Murica dun wronk". It doesn't make any sense. In Crimea and in Ukraine, it's Russia and Putin who are the scumbags and we need to call it out. Shit like this is unacceptable and wrong.

 

[zinfamous]

We are not Russia's backyard. We are independent sovereign nations. Russia is the enemy, has always been and will be in the future. Their current and past aggression clearly show that. Russia is an existential threath to us as its neighbours. Russia is a threath to our freedom, democracy and way of life. We know from experience what it means to be under Russian rule. Never again.

The one who needs to apogolise is Russia for its aggressive expansion against international law.

If you completely forget about the US, Nato etc, what are the reasons to be in favour of Russia's actions in Crimea?

All I see is, USA this, Nato that, Iraq, Afganistan, slavery, American Indians, all kinds of absolute rubbish. The criminal here is Russia. I don't like Obama, I think he's a scumbag. I didn't like Bush, I thought he was even a bigger scumbag. I'm no fan of US foreign policy at times, but all this is irrelevant. You can't downplay what Russia is currently doing just because "Murica dun wronk". It doesn't make any sense. In Crimea and in Ukraine, it's Russia and Putin who are the scumbags and we need to call it out. Shit like this is unacceptable and wrong.

I'm convinced that bshole is one of those douchenozzle pseudoliberals that thought it was cool to wear a Che Guevara t-shirt in High school.

It's a mental disorder.

 

[chucky2]

snip

Simply put: your perspective is that of a petulant child.

zinfamous, meet Jhhnn.