Russia gets Crimea

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Agent11

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
3,535
1
0
And if Russia stops the flow of energy to Europe? 30% gone. Keep in mind Putin would be seen as a hero to the block of countries that are opposed to the US, securing trade. Putin has made it clear he wishes Russia to assume such a leadership role, and China may see advantages to siding with Russia in order to cause the west to lose face and influence, which makes China stronger than before by comparison. Meanwhile France is still sitting on the fence, for now.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,073
37,260
136
And if Russia stops the flow of energy to Europe?

A mild winter has left Europe generally well supplied for the short term. Previous cut offs have resulted in short term pain for Europe but also they have begun diversifying where the NG is coming from, turning to the Nordic countries gas fields increasingly instead of Russia. At this point cutting off supply would arguably be more damaging to Russia since the revenue is no longer expendable....they must have it to keep the country working.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,073
37,260
136
China may see advantages to siding with Russia in order to cause the west to lose face and influence, which makes China stronger than before by comparison.

China trades with the US/EU about 20:1 over Russia. I think the Chinese can do the economic and political math and will remain practically neutral.
 

Agent11

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
3,535
1
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China needs energy, and is now craving status. Both would be what Putin would offer. In order for China to ever be the superpower they crave the US must be knocked down in status. Our strength smothers their pride, and our geopolitical goals are not in line with theirs.
 
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cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
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That is quite the bold position. Care to elaborate?

Russia needs the west more than the west needs Russia.

And the world can immensely out-produce Russia.

China is not going to side with Russia on this. China cares a lot about its economy.

What is Russia's goal? What is Putin trying to accomplish?

If most things go Putin's way, 10 years from now Russia will have made just small inroads into Eastern Europe. They still are a loooong ways away from being an economic powerhouse.

What happens 20 years from now?

There is no victory for Russia other than a superficial high for a few delusional nutjobs.

The only thing Russia can do anywhere is destroy, they are incapable of building. They have nothing to offer other than corruption.

If the U.S. & Canada didn't have such vast energy resources, we would be in a different situation. But we do have lots of resources. I believe the west is far superior to not be threatened by Russia. I don't believe their propaganda campaigns will allow the Russian government to control vast territories again. Their only successful campaign is convincing ethnic Russians that other people hate them. The further you go from Russia, the fewer ethnic Russians there are to cause problems.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Yea, yuck it up, Gen. Why do you think Mexico is a murderous hell hole right now? It is as a DIRECT and MEASURABLE result of American foreign policy meddling (specifically drug policy). We feel we have the right to do just about whatever the fuck we want to destroy Mexico (our neighbor).
-snip-
What we have done to Mexico is an order of magnitude worse than what what Russia has done to the Crimea. Why the hell Mexico keeps bending over so we can screw them yet again is beyond me. Perhaps they are afraid of our military response if they don't do exactly what we tell them to do.

We would be better off if we pulled ALL our troops back to the USA...... the world would be INFINITELY better off.

This is stupid.

Explain why Canada isn't also a cartel infested drug producing hell hole of egregious human rights and governmental corruption like Mexico.

They share the same border etc., and frankly have grown much better pot than Mexico, well, since forever.

Edit: Holy Shiz; somebody actually tried to answer this question:

Do you really need to ask that question?

Stronger rule of law = harder to establish drug production in Canada.
Better economic conditions = Fewer people view the drug trade as a way to get by.

So Mexico's problem is a fault of Mexico and its government?

They don't have "stronger rule of law" and don't know how to run an economy other than by corruption?

And that's to be blamed on others? Wait, what that's called by the educated elite? Oh yeah: the "soft bigotry of low expectations"

Bravo dude!

Seriously?

Fern
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,073
37,260
136
China needs energy, and is now craving status. Both would be what Putin would offer. In order for China to ever be the superpower they crave the US must be knocked down in status. Our strength smothers their pride, and our geopolitical goals are not in line with theirs.

They don't seem to want any partners in their struggle to rise to the top. Russia is a very unlikely choice since the two government very rarely see eye to eye and alienating it's two largest trading partners to do so is an unacceptable expense...still have to pay the bills.
 

Agent11

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
3,535
1
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It would serve China's goals to weaken us, and they could use the industry we built them to serve others. I wouldn't trust them too much.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
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It would serve China's goals to weaken us, and they could use the industry we built them to serve others. I wouldn't trust them too much.

The future is more about the power businesses hold, and less about the power governments hold. It's just a simple fact, businesses are stronger when aligned with the west than they are aligned with Russia.
 

Agent11

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
3,535
1
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China has only recently adopted capitalism, I wouldn't say it is a permanent situation just yet.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
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China has only recently adopted capitalism, I wouldn't say it is a permanent situation just yet.

If you have an argument you want to make, make that argument. Instead you're just throwing out whatever shit you can hoping something sticks proving your gut feeling right.


China is going to side with Russia and annihilate the United States! Was your gut just validated there?
 

Agent11

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
3,535
1
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No I already made my argument. I am countering points made against my initial statements.
 

code65536

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2006
1,006
0
76
China needs energy, and is now craving status. Both would be what Putin would offer. In order for China to ever be the superpower they crave the US must be knocked down in status. Our strength smothers their pride, and our geopolitical goals are not in line with theirs.
China didn't side with Russia during the Russian war with Georgia. China is doing its best to stay out of this whole mess. Even Chinese state media, which likes to take anti-American jabs now and then, has been pretty neutral throughout all this.


First, China is sane. The Chinese leadership, after seeing the disaster that Mao wrought, decided to never again have a 1-person despot. The Chinese system currently has power split between about half a dozen people--president, premier, party chairman, etc.--and in which everyone is subject to term limits (contrast that with Putin, who's in the 14th year of his tsardom and to whom Medvedev is just a token puppet). That's why every decade or so, the Chinese president (and everyone else in the leadership) voluntarily steps down and a new one steps in. It's still far from democratic (nor do they publicly vilify Mao even though everyone quietly knows that these safeguards were the direct result of lessons from his misrule), but it's nothing like Russia's or North Korea's single-person despotism (in fact, they are downright annoyed at NK right now, and it wouldn't surprise me if they are privately facepalming Putin's latest antics). Take away personal egos, and what you get is a China that acts in a far more rational, calculated way, when compared to other despotic countries, and it's why China isn't likely to embark on phallus-size competitions like Putin or throw crazy tantrums like Kim.

Because their heads are still screwed on, they probably see the dangers of setting a precedent for supporting separatism. Russia on one hand encourages Crimea to separate from Ukraine based on ethnic makeup, yet on the other hand clamps down on similarly-reasoned separatism in parts of Russia. It's likely that China realizes this and would prefer to avoid it (esp. since it doesn't gain them anything to speak in favor of Crimea's separation) lest it be used against them when one of China's separatist regions gets ideas.

China is also sane enough to realize that an economic war with the West would result in mutually-assured economic destruction. So much of China's economy depends on trade with the West (even though the 2008 financial collapse didn't directly affect China, the indirect effects resulting from decreased trade was so devastating that they required a stimulus program, that, when adjusted for the size of their economy, was bigger than ours--and that was them feeling just the indirect effects of the crisis), and so much of our economy now relies on Chinese manufacturing that any serious disruption to that would be devastating for us and for them. And since they still have their heads screwed on straight unlike Putin, I can't imagine them jumping off that particular cliff.


Second, China simply doesn't really like Russia all that much. Back during the Cold War, there was some warmth with the USSR at first, but that quickly degenerated and eventually led to armed conflict between China and the USSR. Just because you're both Communist and anti-American doesn't mean that you're automatically friends; see also the Sino-Vietnamese War for another Commie-vs-Commie conflict that most Americans don't know about. This is why China sought relations with the US (remember Nixon?), because they saw the USSR as an even greater threat than the US. Things are better now, and China does side with Russia on a number of foreign policy issues, but they are not BFFs as many mistakenly assume.
 
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cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
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No I already made my argument. I am countering points made against my initial statements.

No, you just decided you would be annoying to anyone who has an argument that goes against your gut. For what reason I can only guess...

You cannot continually make stuff up and demand people incorporate it into their arguments just because you command it. If you make counter points that fall within the realm of reality I'll listen. You currently are not.

If China abandoned their economic model, they can kiss their dreams of being a super-power goodbye. Therefore your argument sucks. It makes no sense.
 
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Agent11

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
3,535
1
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China is opportunistic. They are competing against the dollar same as the Russians you know. It all comes down to whether Obama plays into Putin's hand and creates the opportunity, until then China is quite happy suckling at our teat.
 
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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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China needs energy, and is now craving status. Both would be what Putin would offer. In order for China to ever be the superpower they crave the US must be knocked down in status. Our strength smothers their pride, and our geopolitical goals are not in line with theirs.

I am waiting for the chinese to annex the eastern half of Russia for its natural resources and tell Putin to get bent.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,627
50,839
136
I am waiting for the chinese to annex the eastern half of Russia for its natural resources and tell Putin to get bent.

By the way, I wonder what Yanukovitch thinks about Russia now that it has stolen a significant portion of the country he claims to still lead.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
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I am waiting for the chinese to annex the eastern half of Russia for its natural resources and tell Putin to get bent.

would make my day

the chinese have supposadly been moving into the far east of russia in huge numbers and now the area is more like the southern us with mexicans. china might start to claim some more "responsibilities"
 
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Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
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would make my day

the chinese have supposadly been moving into the far east of russia in huge numbers and now the area is more like the southern us with mexicans.
-snip-

Yes, have read the same thing as far as, oh, 'population dispersion, shall we call it?

'Political knives' seem to so often cut 'both ways'. No?

Fern
 

CLite

Golden Member
Dec 6, 2005
1,726
7
76
It's amazing how much the partisanship of this country has driven us to hate our country. Some shit as simple as filling out a NCAA bracket is why we are now supposedly the low end of the totem pole? Should we take photos of him taking a shower, playing with his kids, taking a shit and be like WTF?????? <INSERT WORLD CRISIS> DEMANDS 100% FOCUS.

My simple thoughts are Putin is an asshole with delusions of USSR revival. We are assholes as well, hell we probably droned more assholes with the loving support of local asshole dictators during this crisis than Russia has killed. Lets back out of places that hate us, continue to drone people planning to kill us with the support of the local dictators, and let Russia enjoy the disdain of the world press (sans RT).

Even if Russia absorbs all of the former states it isn't going to affect our global position in the least. People get too caught up with saving face and chest thumping to objectively look at the situation and the potential consequences.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
It's amazing how much the partisanship of this country has driven us to hate our country. Some shit as simple as filling out a NCAA bracket is why we are now supposedly the low end of the totem pole? Should we take photos of him taking a shower, playing with his kids, taking a shit and be like WTF?????? <INSERT WORLD CRISIS> DEMANDS 100% FOCUS.

My simple thoughts are Putin is an asshole with delusions of USSR revival. We are assholes as well, hell we probably droned more assholes with the loving support of local asshole dictators during this crisis than Russia has killed. Lets back out of places that hate us, continue to drone people planning to kill us with the support of the local dictators, and let Russia enjoy the disdain of the world press (sans RT).

Even if Russia absorbs all of the former states it isn't going to affect our global position in the least. People get too caught up with saving face and chest thumping to objectively look at the situation and the potential consequences.

maybe if Obama was a serious leader he would not throw stupid publicity stunts like filling out the bracket.

How much government time was wasted on that? How much time did he think about the bracket vs russia. Odds are far more.

finally. Its idiotic to think that if we leave places that hate us, that they will a) now like us, and b) not be controlled by people other people that do hate us. IE russia/china.
 
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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
maybe if Obama was a serious leader he would not throw stupid publicity stunts like filling out the bracket.

How much government time was wasted on that? How much time did he think about the bracket vs russia. Odds are far more.

finally. Its idiotic to think that if we leave places that hate us, that they will a) now like us, and b) not be controlled by people other people that do hate us. IE russia/china.

Oh god it was a bracket. Get over it.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
at least 2 have died in crimea including a tatar man and a ukrainian soldier.

vice was also attacked.

despite what some have been saying on these forums it is clear what is happening at least with the russians. despite any subterfuge the americans and the west may have been doing the russians have been using threats and violence to get what they want. the outlook is not looking good at all.

http://www.vice.com/read/my-document...being-american

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoZwWzYBBkc
 
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