Russia gets Crimea

[Jaskalas]

Not sure if I care about the vote. This is Europe's dance.

I fully agree, though there is one caveat. We made a promise to protect Ukraine from invasion in order to give up nukes. Now they feel they have been invaded, and if we don't trust a vote - then surely we agree.

Are we to renege on our treaty? On a defense pact?

 

[norseamd]

there is a lot to read for me but there is a lot we can do in afganistan without russian land use or support.

we can fly over pakistani airspace and deliver what we can from the air. light infantry and special forces supporting afganistani military units is what we should be doing. also we still have air support and light vehicles.

 

[Slew Foot]

So it's now possible to vote yourself out of a country?

Let's just say that the mexican population in the U.S. becomes the majority(which could very well happen), the people decides to hold a vote to turn the entire U.S. to Mexico.

And lose their welfare checks, food stamps and free healthcare? not likely

 

[JEDIYoda]

its pretty obvious that there was vast public support for joining russia rather than having a gov installed by the us.

how old are you?? That's just pure asinine!! There was never any doubt one way or the other whether Crimea would become Russia.......

We were never going to get that involved so as to install a government!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

Hmmmm.
A group of bullies threatening and imposing their will onto the innocent.
Threatening revolt. Taking over by force. Spreading lies.
Hmmmm.
Where have I heard THAT one before?

it's a small world after all. It's a small small small small world. Etc Etc...

You must be talking about the republicans........

 

[code65536]

Ukraine's mistake was being impatient and ignoring the EU-Russia deal to hold new elections by the end of the year. Had that happened and Yanukovych was elected out, then the Russian regions probably wouldn't be up in arms, and Russia wouldn't have much cover.

Russia's mistake was being so heavy-handed with Crimea. As much as I hate Putin, I agree that Crimea should belong with Russia--it was Russian until it was "gifted" (really, just a meaningless administrative shuffle at the time) to Ukraine. But with the extreme propaganda ("neo-Nazis"? Seriously?!), the silencing of opposition media, the troop movement, the election can't possibly be taken seriously. There's a good chance that Crimea would've voted in favor of breaking away anyway without these glaring violations.

Neither side is acting very rationally. They're racing off a cliff because they can't get their f-cking emotions in check.

Keep in mind that Crimea is already an "autonomous" region. It's already quasi-independent. Ukraine's desire to continue its (tenuous) hold is basically the result of pride, nationalism, and (most importantly) fear of Putin (which is not unfounded).

 

[JEDIYoda]

To win by 93% is more than just propaganda. This is the will of the people.

really?? How so? Kim Jong-un gets — 100% of vote!
So with your logic you are telling me that kim jong-un won because of the will of the people?? fascinating!

 

[sportage]

Im guessing Putin wants the nukes back in that country.
No doubt the whole ballgame behind all of this, in my opinion.

 

[VRAMdemon]

its pretty obvious that there was vast public support for joining russia rather than having a gov installed by the us.

Yeah suuure it is...who cares that the democratic process was subverted by a sham election? The sad part is that this will not "end well" for Crimea. The west will not accept the results as legitimate, and while they are not going to go to war over it, you can forget about any foreign investment money for Crimean development for a long time. And expect there to be really tough sanctions against Russia, to the point that they will really hurt the Russian economy.

The thing is, it may be that a majority of Crimeans do want to join Russia. (Though I seriously doubt it is 95%.) If they had the opportunity to have a real democratic status referendum that wasn't at the end of a Russian gun, there is a real chance that the results would have been accepted by the west, or at the very least the west would not be presenting such a united front.

​

 

[PingviN]

I fully agree, though there is one caveat. We made a promise to protect Ukraine from invasion in order to give up nukes. Now they feel they have been invaded, and if we don't trust a vote - then surely we agree.

Are we to renege on our treaty? On a defense pact?

The vote is irrelevant as long as Russia is occupying Crimea. The Crimeans may vote all they like, but that doesn't mean they can become a part of Russia in a legal sense.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The vote is irrelevant as long as Russia is occupying Crimea. The Crimeans may vote all they like, but that doesn't mean they can become a part of Russia in a legal sense.

The 13 Colonies couldn't legally leave England but here we are. Crimea is now part of Russia and while it isn't how things are usually done it will be recognised as such before too long. What remains to be seen is the fallout.

 

[WelshBloke]

So it's now possible to vote yourself out of a country?

It should be. See the Scottish independence vote for an example.
I have no problem with something like that.

What's not right is a third party invading a country first and then holding a vote under their control.

 

[bshole]

I don't have audio so can't really view the Youtube.

I doubt it would change my opinion though. You can't have a fair election under these circumstances. For example Russia blocked Ukrainian TV channels and piped in their own propaganda for a week leading up to the referendum.

If we held elections with only one party allowed to campaign in the final week of elections would anyone seriously argue it was fair?

Fern

Weird how America invades a stable country and turns it into anarchy - Iraq while Russia invades an area in anarchy and turns it stable.

 

[Genx87]

Weird how America invades a stable country and turns it into anarchy - Iraq while Russia invades an area in anarchy and turns it stable.

How was Crimea unstable? And are you arguing two wrongs make a right?

 

[Texashiker]

really?? How so? Kim Jong-un gets — 100% of vote!
So with your logic you are telling me that kim jong-un won because of the will of the people?? fascinating!

Did North Korea voting polls have international observers?

Were international news agencies allowed to witness the entire voting process of North Korea?

It is amazing how people are criticizing a free and open voting process.

How was Crimea unstable? And are you arguing two wrongs make a right?

What is happening in Crimea is a true democracy. The people rose up, and are making decisions about the future of their nation.

Its not like Russia invaded the nation and overthrew the government.

 

[Genx87]

What is happening in Crimea is a true democracy. The people rose up, and are making decisions about the future of their nation.

Its not like Russia invaded the nation and overthrew the government.

In what world do you reside? Russia did invade Crimea and they did overthrow their local govt and held a sham election. True democracy? Really?
It is scary to me people believe holding an election with an occupying army equals freedom and true democracy.

 

[fskimospy]

Weird how America invades a stable country and turns it into anarchy - Iraq while Russia invades an area in anarchy and turns it stable.

Yeah I would love to hear about how Crimea was in 'anarchy'.

It never ceases to amaze me that many of the people who claim to be least trusting of the media in America, etc, are so willing to swallow the messaging out of -literally- state run media from other countries.

 

[fskimospy]

In what world do you reside? Russia did invade Crimea and they did overthrow their local govt and held a sham election. True democracy? Really?
It is scary to me people believe holding an election with an occupying army equals freedom and true democracy.

Imagine what these guys would be saying if it were the US occupying Crimea and forcing a referendum.

These Russia threads have been really illuminating.

 

[Texashiker]

Imagine what these guys would be saying if it were the US occupying Crimea and forcing a referendum.

These Russia threads have been really illuminating.

The US invades two nations, overthrows their government, executes a president and that is perfectly ok.

The people of Crimea vote to join Russia, hold open elections, allow full freedom of the press and international poll observers and that is a travesty.

 

[Genx87]

The US invades two nations, overthrows their government, executes a president, and that is perfectly ok.

The people of Crimea vote to join Russia, hold open elections, allow full freedom of the press and international poll observers and that is a travesty.

I am pretty sure Eskimospy will not claim our invasions of Iraq and Afghasnistan were ok. But are you really making the two wrongs make a right argument?

These werent open elections and they didnt allow freedom of the press neither. Where are you getting your information? They suppressed the local press and ran propaganda leading up to the election. And where did these poll observers come from?

 

[feralkid]

Imagine what these guys would be saying if it were the US occupying Crimea and forcing a referendum.

These Russia threads have been really illuminating.

Well, he is the guy who blames the Allies for Hitler and the Holocaust.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

I am pretty sure Eskimospy will not claim our invasions of Iraq and Afghasnistan were ok. But are you really making the two wrongs make a right argument?

These werent open elections and they didnt allow freedom of the press neither. Where are you getting your information? They suppressed the local press and ran propaganda leading up to the election. And where did these poll observers come from?

And the people who did get in somehow reported varying types of irregularities. Multiple ballots being deposited, people voting who were not from the Crimea region. Armed personnel at the polling stations.

What a free and open process. Oh and lets not forget that "Stay part of Ukraine" wasn't even an option on the ballot.

 

[bshole]

The US invades two nations, overthrows their government, executes a president and that is perfectly ok.

The people of Crimea vote to join Russia, hold open elections, allow full freedom of the press and international poll observers and that is a travesty.

When Russia takes over nobody dies, when America takes over, millions are displaced, hundreds of thousands die, civilization ceases and the area is left in complete and utter desolation and anarchy. Russian BLOODLESS invasions are civilized in comparison to the armegeddons that America inflicts. Now if this devolves into something like a typtical American fuckup, I will amend my position at that time.

Right now, all I can say is, good show Putin!! Russia has the moral authority to tell America to stick it up their ass.

Eski, grats on earning your NEO-CON wings, you should be proud.

 

[fskimospy]

The US invades two nations, overthrows their government, executes a president and that is perfectly ok.

Who said this?

The people of Crimea vote to join Russia, hold open elections, allow full freedom of the press and international poll observers and that is a travesty.

I would love to see some links from you supporting what you wrote that don't come from Russian state media.

If you actually believe what you just wrote here you're delusional. How about "Russia invades and occupies part of Ukraine, suppresses dissent, allows unfettered attacks on the opposition, utilized 'election observers' from friendly political constituencies that related to no international standard, refused to include a 'no' option on the ballot, and repeatedly intimidated, attacked, and harassed journalists'?

 

[Genx87]

When Russia takes over nobody dies, when America takes over, millions are displaced, hundreds of thousands die and the area is left in complete and utter desolation and anarchy. Russian BLOODLESS invasions are civilized in comparison to the armegeddons that America inflicts.

Oh well then that makes it all right. Now lets see what happens when this new found part of Russian territory goes to evict the Ukrainian army before we get too excited about bloodless invasions. I am also pretty sure many died in the invasion of Georgia and Chechnya.